Heym has just released the "Express" bolt action in this gigantic caliber, also in a dedicated proportioned action and a caliber-specific magazine. The stock has wider wood in the forearm area, I assume to house the barrel. It has not made it to the US yet, but it's on the German site. Feast your eyes, and maybe get one in case tyrannosaurs are brought back to life and you need to stop a charging one

I'll believe the magazine width is sized properly for the cartridge when I see one.
Who has the inside-the-magazine-box-widths dimensions at fingertip?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I'll believe the magazine width is sized properly for the cartridge when I see one.
Who has the inside-the-magazine-box-widths dimensions at fingertip?

Rip ...

I've seen some (smaller calibers) at the SCI convention, and the magazines look sculpted around the shape of the round indeed, not one size fits all. Heym also say that actions are made individually for each caliber, but I have no way to verify this. Can anyone confirm whether indeed actions are made specifically for each caliber or not?

They are certainly said to be made specific for the cartridge.
But that does not mean they did it to "Mauser Cosine Law perfection" instead of just a bigger version "make-do" with feeding tricks.
Actual dimensions will be needed to verify that.
Tell me the inside width at the rear of the box
and if they can do that right, the rest should be easy.

Rip

quote:

Originally posted by Double Rifle:
...Can anyone confirm whether indeed actions are made specifically for each caliber or not?

Yes, I can. The feed rails and the magazine box are geometrically unique to each caliber offering.

Each action sits on the shelf with a solid bottom until the caliber is determined, and then it goes back to the CNC where the cartridge-specific profile is cut. No other maker is going to such lengths to build them this way. No, not even in England at 2x, 3x or 10x the price.

Just open the floorplate, and you can visually identify the caliber by looking at the profile. Better yet, stop by the booth, and we'll try to drop a few 404s into a 416 or try to fit 416s in a 375... you can see the geometric differences with the naked eye.

Above all else, they feed. When you start with the correct geometry, there is no gunsmithing - or blacksmithing -needed.

Anyone here with an Express by Martini want to comment on the feeding?

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Better yet, stop by the booth, and we'll try to drop a few 404s into a 416 or try to fit 416s in a 375... you can see the geometric differences with the naked eye.

I did, in January, and almost made an impulse purchase because of the rifle + scope offer. Unfortunately they were out of standard wood grade in 416 Rigby, and being cheap by nature I would not go for ones with higher grade wood

One of the gentlemen made me cycle dummy rounds, and it was as flawless as I've seen Mauser 98 actions.

I will buy one in a future show for sure since that scope offer seems to be a regular thing.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Double Rifle:
...Can anyone confirm whether indeed actions are made specifically for each caliber or not?

Yes, I can. The feed rails and the magazine box are geometrically unique to each caliber offering.

Each action sits on the shelf with a solid bottom until the caliber is determined, and then it goes back to the CNC where the cartridge-specific profile is cut. No other maker is going to such lengths to build them this way. No, not even in England at 2x, 3x or 10x the price.

Just open the floorplate, and you can visually identify the caliber by looking at the profile. Better yet, stop by the booth, and we'll try to drop a few 404s into a 416 or try to fit 416s in a 375... you can see the geometric differences with the naked eye.

Above all else, they feed. When you start with the correct geometry, there is no gunsmithing - or blacksmithing -needed.

Anyone here with an Express by Martini want to comment on the feeding?

Aha!
Still evasive on the inside width of the box at the rear of the box!
Only one number needed, either inches or mm.

Rip ...

That is a gorgeous rifle.
It is like that song, "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife". I'm just not that secure I guess to walk around with such pretty wood. That metal work, fit and finish look sublimely understatedly elegant. Bravo! Make mine with a Kevlar stock when I pay off the mortgage and the kids student loans

I have a 416 Rigby Heym Martini Express rifle and the magazine is definitely contoured to fit that specific cartridge. As a former competitive big bore shooter and hunter for over 50 years I have cycled a LOT of bolt action rifles and my Heym Martine Express rifle is the slickest feeding bolt gun I have ever handled.

Additionally, the accuracy has been minute of angle or better with every 400gr loading.

Another feature I appreciate are the scope mount bases machined into the receiver. Even with number 8 screws in the scope bases I have had them loosen and had on fail on large caliber rifles. That is not possible on this rifle and using the Alaska Arms quick removable rings I can carry a pre-sighted in spare scope and be assured it will be in zero when installed.

You really owe it to yourself to try one of these rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:


Anyone here with an Express by Martini want to comment on the feeding?

My 375 Express is probably the best feeding rifle I've ever owned/tried.

Question to self:
Some of us are hung up on the Mauser cosine rule for magazine dimensions....... was this strictly followed for all the cartridge classes Mauser chambered for ?

Having only had opportunity to actually have in my hands a genuine early pre War 505 Gibbs it never occurred to me to actually measure the magazine dimension ..... 3 down on a round bridge Mauser magnum Sporting action with the front ring notched as they were to accept that very large cartridge. Did this use the cosine rule ? Others who built the same around the Mauser action did not use this feature ?

So now we have a new breed of gun's , modern technology and ability.

Gunmakers / design engineers can now and do produce cartridge specific magazines , followers rails etc. Does the cosine rule still apply ?

No longer do they fight to make a existing magazine work for a cartridge, they now design and build a specific magazine that will function flawlessly with its chosen cartridge.

I recently obtained a little Browning X-bolt in 6.5 Creedmoor, complete with a cartridge specific composite magazine . Whilst no Mauser I am somewhat in awe of how slick this thing feeds and operates... not to mention shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Question to self:
Some of us are hung up on the Mauser cosine rule for magazine dimensions....... was this strictly followed for all the cartridge classes Mauser chambered for ?

Generally speaking the .404 Jeffery head diameter is the biggest that can be made to stagger-stack perfectly in a Magnum Mauser or CZ 550 Magnum action.
Beyond that, the box must be wider than the action will fit, or the box may be windowed or made trapezoidal, whatever can be made to work,
ultimately getting down to a vertical, in-line stack.
That is unless the action and box are made wider to match.
Some of us want to know how wide Heym was able to go on a .505 Gibbs.
Nobody else in the world has ever done a perfect stagger-stack with that one, and lived to tell of it.

Having only had opportunity to actually have in my hands a genuine early pre War 505 Gibbs it never occurred to me to actually measure the magazine dimension ..... 3 down on a round bridge Mauser magnum Sporting action with the front ring notched as they were to accept that very large cartridge. Did this use the cosine rule ?

I would guess not, impossible to do with just some notching of the action top port. One would have to look at the underside and take a measurement across the back end of the magazine box, inside width, checking also for parallel side walls or windowing.
Wouldn't that be interesting to do?

Others who built the same around the Mauser action did not use this feature ?

If someone will dare to pop open his Heym floorplate and measure across the inside width at back of the box bottom,
I will do the same on a Magnum M98, a Prechtl-actioned Mauser banner rifle by SIGARMS, for the .450 Dakota.
No one but Chris Sells has a .505 Gibbs at hand yet?
Surely Chris could measure that single measurement if he had a spare moment?
How about gbs's .416 Rigby?
The .404 Jeffery and .375 H&H are too easy, anyone can get those perfect.

So now we have a new breed of gun's , modern technology and ability.

Gunmakers / design engineers can now and do produce cartridge specific magazines , followers rails etc. Does the cosine rule still apply ?

If it is a staggered-stack magazine, we can only hope it would still apply.

No longer do they fight to make a existing magazine work for a cartridge, they now design and build a specific magazine that will function flawlessly with its chosen cartridge.

I recently obtained a little Browning X-bolt in 6.5 Creedmoor, complete with a cartridge specific composite magazine . Whilst no Mauser I am somewhat in awe of how slick this thing feeds and operates... not to mention shoot.

I owned one too, briefly, and I even ordered a couple of spare magazines from Browning while I had it.
But it did not shoot as well as my Rugers in same 6.5 Creedmoor chambering. M77 Hawkeye, Ruger American Rifle Predator, and Ruger Precision Rifle: All shot better than the Browning X-Bolt.
And the same magazines as work for .308 WCF work for the 6.5 Creedmoor, in the Rugers, RAR and RPR, which only makes sense!
Browning is charging a pretty penny to get the correct cartridge name moulded into the plastic magazines.
I paid the stupid tax on that one.

Hooray for Heym if they make a different magazine box for the .505 Gibbs than the one they use on the .404 Jeffery,
and another different magazine box for the .416 Rigby than the one they use for the .404 Jeffery.
I just want to know if any of them besides the .404 Jeffery and smaller are actually sized correctly for a perfect, equilateral-triangular, staggered-stack,
or are they just bigger make-do versions as has been the usual in the past.

Rip ...

Be still my heart ...,.
Price?

Mauser Cosign rule or not--

The German engineers at Heym obviously calculate the dimension of the magazine well
BY
Cartridge Specific Dimensions
AND
then program the CNC/EDM and/or other equipment to cut the action floor, rails and billet magazine well and follower to those specific dimensions.

These rifles as others have noted "feed like butter"
and are the finest feeding Mauser-type-claw-extractor production rifles I have ever handled.

My SiGARMS .450 Dakota feeds like greased owl poop too, just like Alf said it would.
The backend of the box is 1.005" wide inside.
For a .582" head diameter of .450 Dakota, the box should be 1.096" ideally.

For a .404 Jeffery it should be 1.023" ideally.

For a .416 Rigby it should be 1.111" ideally.

For a .505 Gibbs it should be 1.204" ideally.

But, as y'all say, why bother to do something exactly right, if almost right is good enough.

Rip ...

I love the multifaceted, translucent look of the wood. The pale, diagonal figure almost looks three-dimensional, like crumpled silk.

(Firing the rifle might get one out of the reverie, of course.)

I have seen wood with that effect before somewhere, redolent of light rays filtering down through a forest, upon another figure altogether.

Is there a term in the stock world for that overlay appearance?

I think it is called: Excellent grain flow in the grip where strength is needed, and marble cake in the butt.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by gbs:

Additionally, the accuracy has been minute of angle or better with every 400gr loading.

Was that out of the box, or did you float the barrel or do any work?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
for a perfect, equilateral-triangular, staggered-stack,

Any pictorial guides or links explaining this? Sounds interesting and I would like to understand it correctly. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Be still my heart ...,.
Price?

18,000 Euros on Heym's German site. Not sure if that's with the 17% tax usually embossed in European countries, or if it's the price of exported rifle without that tax.

quote:

Originally posted by Double Rifle:
18,000 Euros on Heym's German site. Not sure if that's with the 17% tax usually embossed in European countries, or if it's the price of exported rifle without that tax.

They 505 isn't that expensive in the US.

For those interested in what "Mauser Cosine" rule is... it's the idea that the magazine box should follow the dimensions of the stack of cartridges, when they are most efficiently stacked.

Practically illustrated, you take 3 cartridges and rubber band them together. This is how they should ideally (or most efficiently) sit in the magazine box. Here - in .416 Rigby, that measures @ 1.10".



The measurement RIP wants to compare is the inside of the back of the magazine box. Here, again - in .416 Rigby - the HEYM box measures @1.10".



C'mon RIP... did you really think that a German rifle maker would set out to build the best big bore bolt action available and not follow the "Mauser Cosine" rule???

Chris,

Good work. Still waiting for the .505 Gibbs measurement.

What is great about the Heym boxes is that they are integral, solid, machined from a big block of steel,
and scaled up in size for each cartridge family
that they are intended for.
My SiGARMS/Prechtl Mauser is same. It works for 4-down by use of a coffin floorplate, though box is a little narrow for the .450 Dakota.
Though the .450 Dakota case head is 0.582" compared to the .590" .416 Rigby, my rifle's box is only 1.005" at width of interest.
But as ALF pointed out that can be jiggered with proper engineering of rails and ramp.

Here is that drawing from page 3 of the ".404 Jeffery History" thread:



To apply the "Law":

Multiply case head diameter or rim diameter, whichever is maximum, by 1.866 and add 0.010" for functional tolerance.

For the .416 Rigby, C = 0.5902" maximum (CIP)
1.866 X 0.5902 + 0.010" = 1.111"

Ideal rear of box inside width for the .416 Rigby = 1.111"

Accepting the fact that rail and ramp can overcome less than ideal box width, then to heck with the 0.010" plus tolerance.
That was a recommendation from a previous discussion here.
IIRC, someone of the stature of Jim Wisner or Duane Wiebe, or maybe even someone of lesser stature gave that input.
Duane Wiebe makes integral boxes built like bank vaults, cartridge specific.

Manufacturing minus tolerance always makes sure the brass is smaller than maximum anyway.
That is enough for the "funtional plus tolerance" of chamber and therefore magazine box too.

So, ideal magazine box width (inside, back end) might then be considered to be 1.101" for the .416 Rigby.
Looks like Heym got that one right.

.505 Gibbs:
C = 0.6402" (CIP = 16.26mm)
MBW = 1.866 X 0.640" = 1.194"

Could Heym have actually made a box that wide?
It does look like the integral steel walls of the .416 Rigby box are thick enough to allow it.
Ought to be easy enough to do.
But who cares, right?

Rip ...

Double Rifle the minute of angle accuracy was, and still is; right out of the box.

Thank you all very much! A wealth of information here