Just started Brian Marsh's "14 yrs in the African Bush", and already there was a disparaging remark about the .404 being under-gunned, inadequate, or just plain bad juju.

Does the modern .404 suffer from these maladys ala .458 WM?

Thanks

Jerry

Though the 404 as factory loaded had a decent reputation as an all-around game and elephant gun, the simple fact remains that it results in marginal penetration, which is why many hunters did not consider it ideal.

Kind of like Atlanta cops. Can't make a man out of a 5' grandma.

Many old-time elephant hunters used the 416 Rigby but none that I know of ever used a 404. But when suped-up today at 2400 fps, they're the same gun.

Ditto Will. The original 1905 black powder version of the .404J was a little anemic when compared to today’s standards. However, with modern powder and actions, the .404 has become a solid performer for dangerous game. The only hold backs for the cartridge today are limited brass sources, and a lean stable of bullet choices.

In my opinion if you blow the shoulder out a little and neck it down to .416, you have about the perfect dangerous game cartridge on the planet. It’s call a .416 Dakota...

Minkman,

Mr. Marsh's impression of the .404 may have been developed while using vintage pre-war Kynoch ammo. It should have been around 2150 fps, but after all those years of decay, the ammo might have only generated 1800 fps or 1900 fps, resulting in poor penetration.

quote:

It’s call a .416 Dakota...

How did I know the name Dakota was going to pop up in your reply???

Remember also that "back than" the rifle/cartridge/bullet were propriatay offerings. The reputation of a good rifle/chambering could be ruined by a poor manfactures bullet choice/construction, and a poor rifle/chambering could acheave good status IF the bullet chosen worked properly.

Will - Why carry an also-ran when you can carry the best? From a ballistic point of view, the Dakota offers the best performance in a standard action.

Folks scream bloody murder if I get the .404 Jeffery up to speed with Varget!

I am about to test a .416 Dakota that weighs about 7.25 pounds in a Brown Pounder, 7.75 pounds in the milk jug stock, and 8.25 pounds in a McMillan:
M70 RUM action
Douglas Premium stainless N0.5 24" length, 12" twist.
Banded Moon Bead front sight.
Talley scope bases (8x40'ed and epoxied)

The Hornady manual shows 2600 fps velocity with their 400 grain bullets in a 12" twist barrel of 25" length using these powders I like:

H4350 95.9 grains
H4831 107.2 grains

The H4831 load is more than I would put in a .416 Rigby!

H4350 gives about 24 fps/grain increase from 2400 to 2600 fps.

H4831 gives 19 fps/grain for same velocity range.

Looks like the .416 Dakota is undeniably the overall champ for a portable/handy/powerful all-around world hunter. Squirrels to elephants.

Anybody got any pet loads for the .416 Dakota?

RIP - These are maximum loads. You should work up to this charge weight!!!

Max Load
400gr Bullet
100gr of H-4831SC nets 2550 fps
100gr of RL-19 nets 2550 fps

My Load
410gr Woodleigh Weldcore
95gr of H-4831 nets 2450fps +/-

quote:

Originally posted by Zero Drift:
RIP - These are maximum loads. You should work up to this charge weight!!!

Max Load
400gr Bullet
100gr of H-4831SC nets 2550 fps
100gr of RL-19 nets 2550 fps

My Load
410gr Woodleigh Weldcore
95gr of H-4831 nets 2450fps +/-

Than you Zero Drift.
I have been looking for an excuse to use more H4831SC. That will be the one for the 370 to 410 grainers. Save the Long Cut for the Rigby. SC is more compact and is more indicated for the .416 Dakota.

I will use the H4350 for 300 to 350 grainers most likely.

No flies on the .416 Dakota.

Why is it the red-headed stepchild of Dakota Arms, Inc.? Just the the fact of easier .416 Remington rifle and ammo access, and .416 Rigby nostalgia, as well as it's easier access nowadays too.

Have to agree that those in the know who want to put out a bit more effort can do no better than the .416 Dakota.

RIP - I would not say that it has been abandoned by Dakota. The problem with any large bore is the limited market interested in them. Not sure why they thought the .404 Dakota would outsell the .416 Dakota or what gap they thought it would fill. Most likely this was a marketing decision - no real competition in factory .404J range. In the .416 world, you have Remington, Rigby, and Weatherby.

In any event, the .416 Dakota offers a lot of benefits over the other .416s.

Note - Do Not resize your brass prior to your first loading and make sure you check headspace before you begin loading. I ran into a bump in the road with my brass - excessive headspace, but I discovered a safe and simple solution to the problem.

Ditto the 416 Dakota. In a standard action I also highly reccomend the 330 and 300 Dakota.
bigbull

quote:

I ran into a bump in the road with my brass

Yea, bring on that odd-ball crap. If you don't mind pressure, I get 2650 fps out of my .416 Rem.

Bill, Bill, Bill - You just don't like anything new. You're still driving a 56 Packard and calling it state of the art in automotive production. Get with the program.

If i'm not mistaken the 404 Dakota will fit in a 30-06 lenght action, as its case measures 2.580 were as the 416 Dakota's case lenght is 2.850 which would require a 375H&H lenght action

And with both running about the same velocitys, it may have some usefullness. With nore companies working on 423 bullets, it may be my choice.

quote:

driving a 56 Packard

The wife's landlady in college had a '55 or '56 Packard in the garage with about 4500 miles on it. I would have killed her (the landlady!) for it, but had sons in line. I guess I could have killed them too.

RIP

I got just got back from the range about an hour ago. Using 83 grains of Varget I pushed 400 grain Aframes at 2510 fps. Once dialed in I was shooting clovers with this load.

Carmelo!
Get ready to duck!
The crap will soon be slung your way!

I use 81 grains of Varget with the 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP Weldcores to get just over 2400 fps with my 24" barrel.

83 grains of Varget is what I use to get past 2525 fps with the 380 grain North Fork soft point.

You have exceeded even my recklessness!

How long is your barrel and what make and twist is it?

Any signs of pressure problems?

BTW, I think my loads are perfectly safe in my rifle, and probably only about 50,000 psi as listed above.

As for the 340 grain North Fork load with 87.6 grains of Varget for just over 2700 fps and sub-MOA accuraccy out to 300 yards, well, let's not go there, else I will have to be ducking the crap again too.

Varget Extreme is good in the .404 Jeffery, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by WORLDHUNTER1:
If i'm not mistaken the 404 Dakota will fit in a 30-06 lenght action, as its case measures 2.580 were as the 416 Dakota's case lenght is 2.850 which would require a 375H&H lenght action

And with both running about the same velocitys, it may have some usefullness. With nore companies working on 423 bullets, it may be my choice.

True. Any pressure problems with the .404 Dakota "Short?" It does 2450 fps with 400 grainers.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Carmelo!
Get ready to duck!
The crap will soon be slung your way!

I use 81 grains of Varget with the 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP Weldcores to get just over 2400 fps with my 24" barrel.

83 grains of Varget is what I use to get past 2525 fps with the 380 grain North Fork soft point.

You have exceeded even my recklessness!

How long is your barrel and what make and twist is it?

Any signs of pressure problems?

BTW, I think my loads are perfectly safe in my rifle, and probably only about 50,000 psi as listed above.

As for the 340 grain North Fork load with 87.6 grains of Varget for just over 2700 fps and sub-MOA accuraccy out to 300 yards, well, let's not go there, else I will have to be ducking the crap again too.

Varget Extreme is good in the .404 Jeffery, eh?

RIP, barrel is 26 inches made by MRC, 14 twist.
Varget has been my first powder choice, Saeed turned me on to some data and I started with that. No sign of pressure at all not even the slightest hint of pressure... With the heavy barrel recoil on the bench was less then a stoutly loaded 45-70. Accuracy was better than I expected. I may not need to try any other loads. Next week I will be practicing off the shooting sticks see how well I do.

Carmelo,
Your rifle is giving about the same velocities as mine.

Forgetting temperature variations, which are about negligible with Varget Extreme:

2401 fps
plus 30 fps/grain x 2 grains = 2401 + 60 = 2461 fps
plus 25 fps/inch of barrel x 2" = 2461 + 50 = 2511 fps

You got 2510 fps.

Pretty close.

You must have a good rifle, by my standards. It must be "loose" like mine.

I predict that you would get about 2750 fps with the 340 grain North Fork and 87.6 grains of Varget at 50 degrees F. At 100 degrees F you will be over 2750 fps a little bit.

Saeed's data is the source of my inspiration too.

Your standards are good enough for me!

When my .404J is done I suppose I will have to keep the loads a little mild due to it being on the 1909 dwm m98 action. Also being in Oz I really only have the choices of AR2208 and AR2209 (IMR 4350 in your part of the world) I think 2209 may be a little slow.

Using the M98 action should I be chasing 2400 fps with the 400 gr woodleigh soft ?? or should 2250 be the limit ??

PC, I think you'll find a powder in the 4350 range quite usable in the great old .404j. 4831 & RL19 work fine for 100%den.loads giving you 2200-2300fps. A drop to a mid range burner will get you there a bit sooner w/ less powder but a bit more pressure.
RIP this data is from the Hogdon site:
400 GR. HDY JRN
COL: 3.560"

H4350 88.0 C 2395 46,400 CUP
H380 84.0 2367 48,500 CUP
VARGET 77.0 2407 53,000 CUP
BL-C(2) 83.0 2420 50,500 CUP
H4895 76.0 2391 53,300 CUP
Assuming larger bore dia. & slightly greater powder cap., you're 380grNF loads are probably right in the ballpark pressure wise. We need somenone to get a pressure test setup to test our loads.

quote:

VARGET 77.0 2407 53,000 CUP

Would be interesting to see what types of chamber pressure 83gr of Varget is netting.

You just gotta love ballistics pioneers.

You do have to love Ballistic Pioneers! I completely agree! Without em we'd still be shooting musket balls!
I would also like to see what type of chamber pressure 83 grains of Varget is netting, as it isn't even showing the remotest inkling of high pressure in my rifle....

Oh, and to the experienced individuals that provided me the data with which I began my load developement, you have my sincere thank you.
regards,

From some of the old books I have read, the problem with the 404 Jeffery was due to the construction of bullets.
I have never heard of any "weak" problems with either of the 450/400's.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
PC, I think you'll find a powder in the 4350 range quite usable in the great old .404j. 4831 & RL19 work fine for 100%den.loads giving you 2200-2300fps. A drop to a mid range burner will get you there a bit sooner w/ less powder but a bit more pressure.
RIP this data is from the Hogdon site:
400 GR. HDY JRN
COL: 3.560"

H4350 88.0 C 2395 46,400 CUP
H380 84.0 2367 48,500 CUP
VARGET 77.0 2407 53,000 CUP
BL-C(2) 83.0 2420 50,500 CUP
H4895 76.0 2391 53,300 CUP
Assuming larger bore dia. & slightly greater powder cap., you're 380grNF loads are probably right in the ballpark pressure wise. We need somenone to get a pressure test setup to test our loads.

NOW HEAR THIS!

Fred is quoting .416 Remington data from the Hodgdon manual. NOT .404 JEFFERY. Should have spelled it out a little more clearly , Fred, but thanks for the useful reference.

He did say "assuming" a larger bore and greater case capacity to compare the .404 Jeffery to the .416 Remington.

Carmelo's load is probably no more than 55Kpsi by my SWAG.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
When my .404J is done I suppose I will have to keep the loads a little mild due to it being on the 1909 dwm m98 action. Also being in Oz I really only have the choices of AR2208 and AR2209 (IMR 4350 in your part of the world) I think 2209 may be a little slow.

Using the M98 action should I be chasing 2400 fps with the 400 gr woodleigh soft ?? or should 2250 be the limit ??

You'll be right mate. Hodgdon Varget is ADI AR2208, and H4350 is AR2209. Just a 'relabel' job.

Just another review of A-Square pressure data:
**********************************************
.423" groove barrel of 16.54" RH twist, 26" long
400 grain Dead Tough bullet (RNSP)
H-4350 powder (I suspect the older version) 86.0 grains
CCI-250
A-Square case
velocity = 2221 fps
pressure = 45,600 psi

Using the new H4350 Extreme (AR2209 hopefully is the newer version), I got this:
*********************************
.423" groove barrel of 10" twist, 24" long
400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP
H-4350 Extreme 86.0 grains
GM215M
Norma case
velocity = 2304 fps at 82 degrees F
very mild load no doubt

87 grains of H-4350 Extreme was a 100 % density load. That's where the shaking and rattling quit, and that gave me 2329 fps.

And just remember the A-Square RL-15 load in the same pressure barrel as above:
***********************************************
400 grain Dead Tough
RL-15 80.0 grains
CCI-250
A-Square case
velocity = 2379 fps
pressure = 49,800 psi

Varget was said to be a little bit slower than RL-15 in most listings, therefore maybe a lower pressure peak for the same weight charge as with RL-15.

Or is the new Varget Extreme a little faster than the old Varget? Maybe that is why it beats RL-15 in my rifle, velocity wise???

Anyway, 81 grains of Varget with the 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore is going to be pretty close to 50,000 psi.

I hate CUP. Please give me PSI anytime.

PC,
Just start with 80 grains of H4350/AR2209 or 72 grains of Varget/AR2208 and work up to the velocity and accuracy you want, and I am sure you will have a G'day.

100 % load of AR2209 should be close to 87 grains with the 400 grain Woodleigh soft.

100% load of AR2208 should be close to 85 grains with the 400 grain Woodleigh soft.

A full case of AR2209 ought to be like the RWS factory hot load for the .404 Jeffery with 400 grainer. You will not be able to overload with that powder as long as you don't use a drop tube and/or compress the powder.

Thanks folks I may go with AR2209 (4350) due to it being a little slower and I will be sure of looking after my little old dwm 1909 m98

quote:

404 Weak?

Is it weak?

only if you compare it to ANY 416(taylor, remmy, rigby, dakota, weatherbY

heh

just pulling your collective legs...

but, seriously, the "load" for the 404 has lower perf than the "load" for the 416 taylor...

jeffe

quote:

From some of the old books I have read, the problem with the 404 Jeffery was due to the construction of bullets.
I have never heard of any "weak" problems with either of the 450/400's.

Urban myth

These cartridges shared the exact same bullet construction and composition bar the bore diameters and what is more the true muzzle velocities of the old Ely and Kynoch rounds for all these cartirdges were less than they were quoted in the old advertisements, some by 100 or 200 fps less when tested today.

An old Ely or DWM bullet travelling at 1900 fps or 2100 fps whether from a 450/400 or a 404 is basically the same thing in reality, if the one is going to fail so will the other, if the one is going to be "weak" so will the other all thing else, such as target and bullet placement being equal.

What I fail to understand about the double afficionados is their claim that their old nitros will kill more effectively than modern cartridge bullet combinations when in fact on paper and reality the majority of those old cartridges neither had the velocity of the bullets to even compare to what have today.

Or conversely all we actually need today is 1900 or 200 fps with a 450 or 500 caliber with a marginal bullet thus everything modern is way overkill ?

Alf,

I am not aware of any modern doubles being regulated for 1900 fps. Why do you use 1900 fps as a point of reference?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
From some of the old books I have read, the problem with the 404 Jeffery was due to the construction of bullets.
I have never heard of any "weak" problems with either of the 450/400's.

Taylor said the only thing that soiled the 404's reputation was the 350 gr. bullet that blew up on game. Perhaps the same bullet used in the kindred spirit 10.75x68. The Rigby round's reputation, on the other hand, was made by the fact that the bullets were heavy for caliber and were so well constructed that the solids never went astray and the softs were able to stay together. It seems that the search for quality bullets started long ago and sealed the fate of many calibers along the way!!!!!

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
500grains

Wake up and look at the starting point of the thread. "Old cartridges, originals ! fired from old guns" not new cartridges, new bullets new ballsitcs or new doubles.

Many of us still have old ammo stashed and if you shoot those over modern chrono you will see they do not even reach their advertised velocities as claimed in their original advertisements.

I have an older 470 Victor Sarasquetta with one "lame chamber" and for years have been shooting original 470 ammo from it, unfortunately the cases cannot be relaoded cause the primers are bigger than what we use today. Those loads are anemic compared to federal's modern ammo and yet the cartridge was touted as the big game getter, which it is.

When James Watts originally worked up loads for his 450 Watts and what was then offered to Roy Weatherby and refused, then given in short form aka the 450 Short Watts to become the 458 Win mag to Winchester he imported 5000 45cal 500 gr bullets from the original Kynoch in circa 1950.

These bullets were for the 500 Nitro and could not witstand the velocities generated by either the long or short Watts and yet worked fine for african hunting in double Nitro's.

What is the descrepancy here, velocity or relative lack thereoff.

The same applies to the old DWM 9.3 mm bullets, fire them in original DWM loadings in the 62 and they were and are magic, fire them from 64 mm case and they failed.

So this begs the question and answer: If an old original 500 Nitro or a 500/ 450 or even the 450-400 is such a wonderfull killer why would a 404 in orginal form be "weak" or even worse a modern 480 gr 458 Win mag going at 2200 fps true velocity be unreliable.

Are we not reading to much into the rambligs of writer hunters and nostalgia..... again I say a lot is urban myth !

ALF:

Don't intend to start a pissing match, but I beg to differ with you in some of your statements.

Just how are you going to shoot a .500 Nitro bullet of .510 dia. in a .450 Watts, long or short as they use .458 dia bullets. If one could pound the action shut with such a bullet, case combo, it should have given some primer blowing pressures!

Furthermore, as I remember from articles I read in the early '50s, they brought in Kynoch bullets in 480 grain that were for the .450x3.25 Nitro , not 500 grains. I don't recall any of the Kynoch .450's ( .450x3.25, .450 #2 or .500/.450) using 500 grain bullets. I never saw any except 480's and Iused all of them in the "70's to hunt with for the big ones that would stomp a fellow.

I vividly recall Jack O'Connors statements about using the 480 grain bullet made for the .450 3.25 in his Watts for his first trip to Africa. I gave away all of my O'Connor books last year for the Isac Walton charity auction or I'd look up the reference.

quote:

When James Watts originally worked up loads for his 450 Watts and what was then offered to Roy Weatherby and refused

I bet at that time Roy was necking up and necking down the 416 Rigby Improved

Mike

At some point in time there were few good bullet for the 404 and the 350 gr. bullets were failures...

Inasmuch as I have shot a number of buffalo with a 404 with 400 gr. Woodleighs at 2100 FPS and even more buffalo with same at 2400 and a few with 400gr. bullets at 2653 FPS and I couldn't tell much, if any, difference in any of them and they all performed to perfection, all I can conclude is those that have used it with proper bullets love it, those who condem it have not used it and are simply passing gas...

Every time I read about a cartridge failure, it takes me back to a bushy little patch in South East Asia. I heard the 5.56 wouldn't kill a anything but jackrabbits and gophers. As I sat on my heels looking into the dead eyes of a recently departed North Vietnamese sergeant, I asked him about the killing power of properly aimed shot out of a 5.56mm round. Having taken note of nicely placed chest shot, he had no comment on either the killing power of the cartridge or the marksmanship of the Marine that delivered the shot! Me, I think a lot of blame on "poor performance" goes in the "I muffed the shot and don't have the balls to admit I blew it" category.