One shot kill.

Question:
For a shoulder shot from a 458 caliber bullet at 2250fps,which bullet stands the best chance of dropping the buff at the CRACK of the shot?

Choices:
500gr TSX
500gr Barnes Banded Solid
550gr Woodleigh FMJ (2150fps)

 

Any one of them, IF it hits/damages the spine or brain.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Any one of them, IF it hits/damages the spine or brain.

George

Yes I know,but which will create the hydrostatic pressure that will shock the spine from a shoulder hit.

Fluid dynamics are a funny thing; I do not believe you can rely on any particular bullet to cause the effect you are inquiring about merely by passing through the animal.

A high shoulder shot may result in knockdown, but I would say it is because of the bullet or secondary projectiles clipping the spine or the spinal processes and transmitting shock.

George

None of the above. If it were me, I would be using Swift A-Frames.

I am not sure if it is possible to put a buffalo down on the spot with a shoulder shot. Brain or spine him and he will go down...shoulder a different shoulder. Any of the bullets will work, however of the ones you list I would go with the Banded Solid with the X-Bullet not far behind. The Woodleigh will work good too but in my experience they tend to zip through a bull cleanly...but if you hit the shoulder it will do some damage.

TSX for the first shot, no question. Banded solids in the magazine.

20 MM...

GS Custom flat nose solids.

If not, Woodleigh solids.

I have dropped a Cape Buff with a high shoulder shot with a 286grn 9.3 Woodleigh solid but it wasnt the spot I was going for, and although it dropped to the shot, it was far from dead.

ozhunter,

Did the trackers and PH perform a necropsy?

George

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
None of the above. If it were me, I would be using Swift A-Frames.

MJines,have you used 500gr Swift-A-Frames on buff?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
GS Custom flat nose solids.

If not, Woodleigh solids.

500 grains,wouldn't solids go right on through with little damage?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I have dropped a Cape Buff with a high shoulder shot with a 286grn 9.3 Woodleigh solid but it wasnt the spot I was going for, and although it dropped to the shot, it was far from dead.

but that might have been different if it were from a lott

Im with Mjines on the Swift A Frame, flawless bullet. As far as a particular bullet dropping a bufflo by virtue of hydrostatic shock alone......probably not going to happen, unless an inferior bullet is used and comes apart sending fragments, or as George said secondary fragments such as bone into the CNS. If a buffalo is shot in the correct place 1/3 of the way up the body in a line up the leg, those fragments are going to have to travel a loooong way to reach the CNS. If you have never hunted buffalo then you would have no way to know that buffalo are not at all impressed by hydrostatic shock. I am by no means an expert and ther are many on here that have shot tons more buffalo than I but this is what I have experienced. The major factor in hydrostatic shock is bullet velocity. There are very few cartridges that posess the hydrostatic shock potential than the 450 Ackley and the 460 Wby. 458 bullets at 2550-2650 fps. I have taken several buffalo with the 450 Ackley and have seen one shot with the 460. They did die but they did not fall down upon being shot. In my oppinion cross sectional area of the bullet is a more important factor in the visual reaction of a buffalo upon being hit. I have taken buffalo with a 500 NE and the visual reaction has been much more dramatic every time with the 50 caliber bullet at a much lower velocity than the smoking 458's, This also correlates to less hydrostatic shock. There are a lot of great bullets, none of which are "Magic Killers" So I guess if you want to get the visual verification that you just Hammered a buffalo then get one of the great bullets listed by the guys above and get a .577 or .600 NE and let us know how it goes.

I agree with Mjines & Silwane, the 500 Swift A-frame has been a good bullet for me. I have shot several buffalo, including water buffalo and "scrub bulls" in Austraila with .460 Weatherby Magnum with Swift A-frames and had great results. It is very consistant and predictable in performance. I wish they made them in .510 caliber.

WLA

As I understand, solids are for the head shots, expanders are for the shoulders. Never been to Africa, but it sounds logical. Am I wrong?

Solids are for FEET of penetration, Softs are for expansion ...

head shots, per se, don't really enter into it, unless we are talking about shoot thataways' "shooting helmut"

Yes and No. For Elephant all shots taken should be with solids. Elephant are simply too large of an animal for mushrooming soft point bullets to be used even on broad side shots, lung shots need to penetrate both lungs and softs just will not do this. On Buffalo a lot of times is is possible and adviseable to take the first shot, which should be a broadside shot, with a mushrooming soft point. This shot is to be followed up with solids. The reason for this is that there is no way to predict or wait for a good second shot. You need to have a bullet that will penetrate as far as possible and break bone to reach the vitals from any angle. This is the short of it. There are so many variables that change everyting but I would said the principle is that you are always safe with a solid bullet on large thick skinned animals, Ele, Buffalo, Hippo, Rhino. It may not do as much damage as a soft mushrooming bullet but the solid will always go deeper and straighter than the soft. A solid will always work where a soft, only under certain circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by silwane:
Yes and No. For Elephant all shots taken should be with solids. Elephant are simply too large of an animal for mushrooming soft point bullets to be used even on broad side shots, lung shots need to penetrate both lungs and softs just will not do this. On Buffalo a lot of times is is possible and adviseable to take the first shot, which should be a broadside shot, with a mushrooming soft point. This shot is to be followed up with solids. The reason for this is that there is no way to predict or wait for a good second shot. You need to have a bullet that will penetrate as far as possible and break bone to reach the vitals from any angle. This is the short of it. There are so many variables that change everyting but I would said the principle is that you are always safe with a solid bullet on large thick skinned animals, Ele, Buffalo, Hippo, Rhino. It may not do as much damage as a soft mushrooming bullet but the solid will always go deeper and straighter than the soft. A solid will always work where a soft, only under certain circumstances.

A good summary ,imo. I'd add that the clasic elephant shot is the brain shot, especially the frontal brain shot but also the side brain shot.

For these brain shots you need from less than a foot to three and four feet of straight line penetration through skin, muscles, honey comb and dense bone, perhaps more. Penetration required depends on the relative positions of the hunter and elephant and on how the elephant is holding its head when the shot is taken, particularly if its head is high - more penteration needed - or low - less penetration needed.

I'd also add that softs are much prefered for the cats.

JPK

My CZ Lott has arrived.I look forward to testing loads with these bullets.I think bullets can't expand and be effective beyond their diameter.Therefore,a solid may be as effective as an expanding bullet as long as it is not a spitzer.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think bullets can't expand and be effective beyond their diameter.

Huh? Are you saying a .375" bullet that expands to .550" is less effective in destroying tissue than a .375" that doesn't expand?

quote:

Therefore,a solid may be as effective as an expanding bullet as long as it is not a spitzer.

As effective at what?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think bullets can't expand and be effective beyond their diameter.

Huh? Are you saying a .375" bullet that expands to .550" is less effective in destroying tissue than a .375" that doesn't expand?

quote:

Therefore,a solid may be as effective as an expanding bullet as long as it is not a spitzer.

As effective at what?

George

The answer to the first question is yes in that the solid will always provide a surface equal in size to its diameter to pound with.The expanding bullet may take time to provide this surface or provide it briefly before it breaks down.The answer to the second question is that it will be more effective at POUNDING or PUSHING whatever is in its way.

I have to agree with 500 grains. I used GS FN(458wm 500g) on an elephant, shoulder shot through both lungs and one shoulder. He dropped to the shot and then began getting up. So, I suppose they should work on buff equally as well

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think bullets can't expand and be effective beyond their diameter.Therefore,a solid may be as effective as an expanding bullet as long as it is not a spitzer.

from the same guy that thinks an unclean barrel will break a stock...

useless to discuss..

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
None of the above. If it were me, I would be using Swift A-Frames.

None of our choices! They all SUCK for buffalo in my experience!!!!

Hey, the little turd has resurfaced. When you say "our" are you referring to your multiple personality disorder? Judy, Axle, and whoever else is in there with you? And, you ARE an expert as sucking...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

A Hunter Formely Known As Texas Hunter once posted that his 500gr Hornady RN bullets turned flat as pancakes when he shot and recovered them from his buff.It took quite a few shots as from his Lott as well.I doubt the 500gr A-Frames are tough enough on buff at 2250fps.

you really need to add the 500g Swift A-Frame, 500g A-Square Dead Tough and 500g Woodliegh Protected Points to the list You've only listed one expanding bullet and it's a Barnes TSX so the conclusion is foregone.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
A Hunter Formely Known As Texas Hunter once posted that his 500gr Hornady RN bullets turned flat as pancakes when he shot and recovered them from his buff.It took quite a few shots as from his Lott as well.I doubt the 500gr A-Frames are tough enough on buff at 2250fps.

Surely, you jest...

hornady 500gr SPs are NOT a premium hunting bullet..

you can't run a 500gr horandy 2150 (450NE) or even 1800FPS in a 45/70...

failure to understand this means you are having the a id-10-t error

If you want damage enough to possibly drop the buff on the spot, rare indeed, count the solids out unless you hit the spine or the brain. As far as softs go, my choice, Northfork or Swift, and yes, the Swift is tough enough at 2250fps to get the job done. That said, I still prefer a good solid on thick skinned game, Woodies, GS, and I've been eyeing those new Noslers, time will tell.

I just received my CZ 550 Lott Fancy Grade.I am going to do a Lott of shooting this Wednesday.I hope I survive the first session of load testing.[URL= ]a[/URL][URL= ]b[/URL]Just like the CZ 550 458WM I bought before,this one also has a feeding problem.I won't send this in unless I get the other one back.I see most people believe the TSX is perfect for the job.

Survive the testing or "loading" that's a lot of booze supporting that rifle!

Nice gun! Let us know how the first day of shooting goes.



Chuck

If I were to use a .458 which I won't, I suppose that I would opt for a 450 gr. GS Customs HP and FN, That should be a very good combination to kill a buffalo...I have used the 458 with 500 gr. bullets and think you need to get a little more velocity our of it and the best way is the 450 gr. monolithic IMO......

Shootaway,

Please...
1. bring your video camera with you.
2. photograph the targets
3. don't forget your helmet.

If you believe in hydrostatic shock effect on Buff, maybe the Tooth Fairy will bring you the proper bullets.

The 500 grain Swift .458 at 2,400 fps (point blank) and 100 yards. Why would this not do well at 2,250 fps?????



Pictured 500 grain Swift .458 caliber at 2400 fps, point blank and 100 yards. Nearly identical to .416 400 grain at same velocity. 90% weight retention.

Some other good 458's. These are 450 grain at 2550 fps:



L to RT. 450 grain Barnes X, 450 grain North Fork, 450 grain Swift, 450 grain Kodiak. 90-95% weight retention.

And these some good 400 grain at 2750 fps!!!!! (awsome):



L to RT: 400 grain Barnes X (not so good), 400 grain NF (amazing), original TBBC, Woodleigh. 80-95% weight retention.

Premium expanding bullets change (almost) everything.

You can certainly expand your list!

Andy