Working up loads for an upcoming Cape Buffalo hunt in September. Bolt action rifle, Mauser M98 type, in 416 Rigby.

My plan has always been a 400 grain Swift A-Frame together with a solid type bullet for backup. I came over a whole bunch of 410 grain Woodleigh FMJ bullets in a local gun shop, and thought that should be a good match to the Swift A-Frame bullets. However, I also tested some 410 grain Woodleigh RN SN, and here comes the catch: the Woodleigh RN SN bullets shoots to pretty much to the same point of impact as the Woodleigh FMJ bullets. On the contrary, the Swift A-Frame bullets shoot roughly three inches left of the Woodleigh FMJs at 100 meters. Three inches is not a lot, considering the use on buffalo as follow up shots.

So, which one should I go for? Also, how do you compare the 400 grain Swift A-Frame versus the 410 grain Woodleigh RN SN for buffalo, given typical 416 Rigby velocities (2300 – 2400 fps)?

Both are great bullets.I've taken buff with both.Those are the only softs I have in my stash loaded for my 458 Lotts.For solids I use the Woodleighs and the Hornady DGS.I hope I can get out and take a buff this year too.

As always shot placement is the key, both
bullets are good in the .416. though you may find
the Woody a little softer than the bonded core
Swift A-frame. Don't forget about the North
Forks, performance is awesome IMHO. Good luck
and great hunting.

Tetonka
DRSS

Both are good bullets! Take a look at the Northfork Cup Point Solids. This is a buffalo bullet!

Swift A-Frame, Barnes TSX, North Forks, CEBs, Trophy Bondeds, Dead Toughs....all good Buffalo bullets.

Your well heeled with that combo, swifts are real good softs for any DG to answer your question...Always back up a soft with a solid is good advise IMO..If they run away stick it up their keyster, if they run towards stick it up their nose.. I too like the North Fork cup point, its an expanding solid and kills exceptionally well on buffalo..I also like the Woodleigh 450 gr. soft and solid..Its a great bullet, as is the Nosler partition..Lots of good bullets out there these days..

I have shot 8 buffalo with the 400 gr A Frame and wouldn't think of using any other bullet, solids being the exception for ele and hippo.

I would have said Swifts untill you said they shoot different to the FMJs

I've killed many Buff using the Swift A-Frame 400gr in my .416Rem. There is no need for solids for other than Ele, Rhino and Hippo, although the A-Frame will work on the latter two. I stopped loading solids for Buff over 15 years ago.

Also, the CEB Raptors will work very well from the 416s. Essentially a HP Solid.

Use the Swifts and leave the solids at home.

The A-frames in 416 Rigby will penetrate through a broadside buff. Perfect expansion. They hit hard and make quick kills with good shot placement. Miss the mark and you have a problem.

Tetonka's experience mirrors mine, the Woodleighs are just a bit too soft for my taste. The Swift is a better soft for penetration. On a scale of 1-10, I would give the Woodies a 7.5 and the Swifts a 9.

Both work. I've settled on A-Frames. Very consistent performance.

Thanks for all replies, highly appreciated.

Interesting viewpoint on the need for solids at all on buffalo, given the performance of modern softpoints like A-Frame, ref comments from LionHunter and Dogleg. Can one think of a situation / shot angle at buffalo where a bullet like A-Frame in .416 would be prone to fail or lack penetration?

quote:

Originally posted
Can one think of a situation / shot angle at buffalo where a bullet like A-Frame in .416 would be prone to fail or lack penetration?

hunting the thick stuff amongst elephant that have been harassed by Poachers.

If I am going to use Woodleighs in my Lott,they will be 550grs.Ive tested A-frames and Woodleighs on dirt mounds and the 500gr A-Frame will equal the 550gr Woodleigh-they both will stay somewhat intact.The 500gr Woodleigh will break into pieces/seperate...

With my .416 rigby, I've used more TSX than anything, but have used AFrames on a Buffalo or two and really think they are roughly comparable.

The only potential need for a solid would be if you want to shoot a Buffalo that has been feeding all day with a Texas heart shot, and get him in the heart from that one...

I took a frontal shot with an AFrame on one and the bullet was recovered in the rumen, just under the surface of the rear side of the stomach. It probably would not have gotten into the vitals if I had shot from the opposite side of the buff, and when you are taking that shot on a wounded buff its to break the spine or hips/pelvis so not a reason to go to a solid just on the off chance you might take a shot on back up that way.

If I had to make a choice and live with it forever on DG, I would take a solid, preferably a flat nose solid...Those that claim you never need one are missing something somewhere IMO.you cannot depend on a soft of any kind to penetrated a "full" ruman on a going away Buff or a head shot on a charging bull..Most times yes as most buff today are shot broadside under perfect conditions, but that scenario can go South at times. The exceptions to my opine just may be a GS Custom or Barnes monolithic HP or the grand North Fork cup point that can be classified as a soft or solid...

I see this soft for everything under all conditions as a failed option, and brings to mind, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... I was of that opinion for quite sometime, but certain events changed my mind in just a few moments. But its a 100 year old argument, many a campfire burned to cool coals over this one!

I find Woodleighs and Swift soft equal and dependable..I particularly like the 450 gr. Woodleighs and I field tested them for Geoff some years ago prior to production..Wonderful bullet that extra 50 grs. moves the 375 to a 416 and the 416 to a 458 sorta..The largest bull I ever shot fell to a couple of those 450 Woodleighs. One double lung shot and the next one under the chin at much shorter range.

I use a solid with a wide flat meplat ( nose). They say it is the best for deep straight line penetration and a good wound channel, for a solid.
I have limited experience. One bull with NorthFork cup point. Excellent solid. Two with CEB safari solid. Excellent performance.
Three cows with .585 hard cast solid. Awesome.

I have been told that Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solids are number one and will use them for three of five buffalo this year in .500 cal and .585 cal.

Also, I have heard nothing but good things about the 400gr. Swift A-frame in 416. Should be a real hammer.

One point often made in using solids is collateral damage when shooting an animal in a herd or near others yet many here promote making subsequent rounds in the magazine solids. What happens if the buff is still mobile in or around the mob after the first soft?
Admittedly if a wounded buff does charge it will likely be alone and the mob gone so safe enough if the solid exits, hopefully.

I used solids, the old style Parker Hale and RWS round nose at about 2200 fps MV in my 404 on a few Aussie bulls and other buffs and didn't have any drama putting them down. Only recovered one RWS solid that penetrated full length and lodged in the hip joint ball and socket.
Personally I would prefer solids for any large game, break shoulders, heads, hips and spines without worrying if the bullet will do it or not.

I hit a buffalo in the mouth taking out the teeth with a Swift 400 gr. it went out his jaw behind his ear, then next shot killed him..I actually split a 400 gr. Woodleigh soft on the teeth of a charging buffalo, half the bullet went throught the neck and out behind the shoulder doing no damage, the other half went into his heart and was recovered..The second and third shot finish him real close pushing mud over the hunters boots..He was pale as a sheet and the PH was fussing with a stuck shut double rifle in .458 caliber, the extractors or ejector over rode the rim...

A flat nose solid is good, a Northfork cup point is awesome..penetrates like a solid and expands enough to work like a soft. there is no better bullet for buffalo. I hear they are great on elephant, but don't know. I would use a flat nose solid on an elephant, all Ive ever used on elephant is Woodleigh solids.

For a soft my favorite is the Woodleigh 450 gr. bullet in 404 or 416 for the initial shot, followed by the usual 450 gr. solid up the keester as the bull makes his last run..Im a bit prejudice as I helped developed that bullet with Geoff..

I found a .375 Swift bullet encased in a golf ball size callous on the off side shoulder of the largest Cape buffalo Ive ever shot, a real old warrior with polished bosses and just huge..
both his lungs were grown together in the healing process looked sorta like a big balloon twisted in the middle and lots of scar tissue, but he was fat and sassy and full of fight when I killed him..He had Lion scars on his hips and missing part of his tail..I have never measured him but he was the largest Pierre van Tonder had seen in the Selous, my guess looking at right now on my wall is about 44 inches give or take and inch. I love that bull like my dog!

I love hunting buffalo, to me they are the holy grail of hunting..some like elephants the same way and other like Lions, I'll take a big buff every time given a choice..

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Use the Swifts and leave the solids at home.

This.

I would always have a few solids along, why not? And if you have to put a follow upshot in the north end of a rapidly accelerating south bound buff, and you miss the spine, there is probably a belly full of grass to go through on the way to the vitals. Solids do have their place for an african hunt, but if all goes well, a good softpoint will do all the work.

You know how some people nod knowingly and solemnly proclaim that buffalo turn indestructible after the the first shot? That's because the first soft was the only good shell in their gun.

Whichever shoots accurately in your rifle.

At that velocity, both will hold together, and the buffalo won't notice anything different.

Dog leg say it ain't true!

In fact if a buff runs at the first shot and he most of the time will, and the 55 gallons of adrenaline goes pumping thru him, he can be a Sherman Tank, and damn hard to kill, so can a Mule deer or a Coues deer for that matter under the right set of circumstances. I have a tape of one bull taking more than a dozen hits, and another on the same hunt taking more than half that many, Some gents from Boise, Id. that I sent on a buff hunt and had a pro photographer to film there hunt. I followed up with some guys a buff hit hard in both lungs and he lived all night and was on the prod when they killed him the following day..Also read my post on the 375 Swift I found in my bull that encased in a ball of callused material, and the lungs were scarred and grown together and he was fat and healthy when I killed him.. It happens..Never say never.

Max:

I'm a big fan of A-Frames, but to answer your question of when is an A-Frame inadequate on buffalo? I'd say be careful on left side quartering away shots. And I'll share this.

Was hunting lion and leopard and desperate for bait. Shot the first mature bull at the first opportunity with a .416, A-Frame. He was quartering away giving me his left side, but quartering more than I thought. No blood. Only a bit of ruman contents. If you think I was unhappy, you should have heard from the trackers.

Quite a follow up and only blood we found was aspirated. Then we heard the bellow. He was down and one finisher was all it took. Shot was placed properly to hit the exit, but I clipped the ruman and bullet lodged in the heart. A-Frame was barely adequate to make up for my poor judgment.

No more left sided quartering away shots. Message to self!

Right side, you're golden.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Dog leg say it ain't true!

In fact if a buff runs at the first shot and he most of the time will, and the 55 gallons of adrenaline goes pumping thru him, he can be a Sherman Tank, and damn hard to kill, so can a Mule deer or a Coues deer for that matter under the right set of circumstances. I have a tape of one bull taking more than a dozen hits, and another on the same hunt taking more than half that many, Some gents from Boise, Id. that I sent on a buff hunt and had a pro photographer to film there hunt. I followed up with some guys a buff hit hard in both lungs and he lived all night and was on the prod when they killed him the following day..Also read my post on the 375 Swift I found in my bull that encased in a ball of callused material, and the lungs were scarred and grown together and he was fat and healthy when I killed him.. It happens..Never say never.

I'm not saying buffalo aren't tough, I'm saying that softs hit a lot harder. I'm also saying that if a buffalo is heading north I'm breaking his hip so that's covered. You know how far a buffalo goes on 55 gallons of adrenaline and a broken hip? Not very. I've also noticed that many run east, and a similar amount west. Many don't run at all, sometimes for reasons for only known to them.

I started with a soft in the pipe and solids in the mag like everyone else; before screwing up enough courage to break with tradition and put 2 A-Frames in. The first time that combination was used was in South America. One in the wish-bone then it wheeled and got another one up the kester. Ripped the crap out of a couple feet of spine and stopped at the shoulder. I sort of quit worrying about it after that.

I know you've killed a lot of buffalo; I'm sitting at 135 now, spread across 3 continents. I don't expect that I'll ever change your mind and know that you will never change mine. I'm at peace with it.

Well hell dog leg if you can live with it, so can I!!

I have to agree with Ray. If I am hunting in Africa...I usually always have the magazine full of solids. I started my Africa career with Barnes Xs as my softs and their brass flat-nose solids as follow ups and for ele.

I then got to be friends with Mike Brady (original owner/make of North Forks) and tried his bullets. While I could not tell any difference in performance between Barnes X/TSX and North Fork softs...those big flat point solids made a believer out of me.

Since I have switched to CEB Safari Raptors and their solids...I think they are the ultimate of today.

I like solids for off angle follow ups, shooting into dense brush on follow ups, and of course for ele. After shooting quite a bit of game with 60% meplate or slightly larger flat-nose straight shouldered solids...sometimes I wonder why I even bother with softs...they hit hard, make large wound channels, track dead straight, penetrate to the max, and almost always exit from any angle (except ele)...which I like. As mentioned...shooting with background animals in a herd is a good reason for softs.

I am a solid guy.

Hi

I shot a lot off buff both for myself and previous wounded (clients and Poachers) over the last 23 years and i never use solids on Buff no need if you got good softs. My experience soft kill better and quicker than solids.

Woodleigh are IMO to soft on close distance over 40 to 50 meters they work fine however with swift A-Frame close distances are not a problem quick kills and good penetration. i am using 416 rem, 416 rigby, 500/416 , 425WR, mainly for buff and sometimes a 500NE in the 500 the woodleigh works also on close distances because of the lower speed i guess is the penetration ok.

Hope that helps

Freischuetz

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:
I shot a lot off buff both for myself and previous wounded (clients and Poachers) over the last 23 years and i never use solids on Buff no need if you got good softs. My experience soft kill better and quicker than solids.

That’s a pretty good testament to the available bullets today, thanks for sharing your experience Freischuetz.

I have decided to go for the A-Frame bullets in my 416 Rigby, even if the point of impact is slightly different from my solids (Woodleigh FMJ 410 grs) ... probably not of any significance at relevant hunting conditions. I will ask my PH whether I should load solids below one soft point, a couple of solids below two soft points, or just fill up with softs. I guess there is not a definite answer to this one.

All three of my buff were shot using the 400 gr. Swift A-frame. I go for the shoulder shot about 1/3 up the body. Breaks bone shoulders and messes up a lot plumbing.

Couldn't ask for better performance. I have always backed up the A-frame with solids just in case of a bad hit which might necessitate a Texas heart shot.

Might want to shoot both loads and see which one your rifle prefers as to accuracy. I believe accuracy is job one with buff.



BH63

To answer ones question about shooting solids in the herd, and that is problematic as solid exit on broad side shots and thy do put a lot of tracking blood on the ground, you cannot depend on that with any soft, sometimes they will and sometimes they wont..If in a tight herd I just wait the bull of choice out until I have a clear shot at him, I don't buy off on the old scam story that they didn't see the cow behind him, they just didn't pay attention..Ive never had a problem using solids or GS customs or Barnes X in the bush and these particular bullets tend to penetrate moreso than other "softs"..

If I lived wild as in the old days and hunted alone with just trackers and camp staff, I would only use solids, even the old Woodleighs of yesterday..Penetration is the golden rule with DG IMO. all else is folly and magazine yellow journalism!

I recall Finn Aaggard always used nothing but solids,in his scoped 375 H&H on Buffalo as did George Hoffman, and many of the older set of PHs still praise the solid so we have our army in waiting on the subject!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I recall Finn Aaggard always used nothing but solids,in his scoped 375 H&H on Buffalo as did George Hoffman, and many of the older set of PHs still praise the solid so we have our army in waiting on the subject!

There may be some real truth in this with the .375 H&H. In August 2017, I put a .375 300 gr A-Frame on a buff's shoulder from 70 yards. The bullet flattened on the should joint, broke it, but did not penetrate. It is flat as a pancake! Next time I am going with Woodleigh 350 gr Weldcores and solids; or maybe a .416!

Woodleigh makes an HD 350g softpoint now. I think they would penetrate better than an A-Frame (and I love A-Frames) solids for back up sound like a good idea.

Solids are particularly needed as the caliber gets smaller, Its well known that softs of all makes have skipped off the shoulder and ran under the arm and down the rib cage, that's why Finn only used solids in his 375 H&H..

I was part of the development of the Woodleigh 350 gr. Soft and solid in the 375 and in the 40 calibers with 450 gr. softs and solids..I teamed up with Geoff on that project, and I field tested them in Tanzania for several years prior to distribution...I love those heavy bullets, and they have worked great for me, Ihave some neat film on those kills..

Bottom line is most of todays bullets work well on DG, at most the difference is slight, but the Solid vs. the soft is an age old delima, that has to be delt with thru ones own experience..Use what your comfortable with, besides today we always have a backup, Ijust hate for a PH to jump in and finish off my bull, and I make it clear not to assist except under the worst of conditions to start with, when Im in dire straits I don't mind a little assist now and then, but it hasn't happened yet, I have had to assist another hunter a couple of time, but by request only..

Picture below shows two shots with 400 grs A-Frame just above center, and two shots with 410 Woodleigh FMJ a few cm right off center. Shots at 100 meters.

I guess this is adequate for buffalo hunting?

(My original concern was that the Swift A-Frames and the Woodleigh solids do not shoot to the same point of impact)