What do you think is the smallest, least powerful cartridge that is still a true elephant cartridge? When i say ''true'' elephant cartridge i mean a cartridge that works reliably with well placed shots. I think it is the .375 H&H Magnum.

500NE!

What bullets are you using?
I would say the cart depends on what bullet you are using.

Since the 375 H&H is the minimum legal elephant cartridge in most African countries, I would say that they agree with you.

465H&H

The minimum caliber is the caliber that you feel comfortable with at 20 yards with the elephant looking down his trunk at you.

Pez your question is an oxymoron. Legally in much of Africa the minimum elephant cartridge is the .375 H&H with exceptions in many for the 9,3x62mm. However both require a bullet that will reliably reach the brain. Now we're all aware that Bell killed greater numbers of elephant with the 7x57mm cartridge than most modern hunters will kill in total in their lifetime. However none of these three cartridges will turn the elephant from a charge should you miss the brain...

The minimum caliber should the the largest caliber above the minimum .375 H&H that the shooter can accurately shoot...again with a proper bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Pez your question is an oxymoron. Legally in much of Africa the minimum elephant cartridge is the .375 H&H with exceptions in many for the 9,3x62mm. However both require a bullet that will reliably reach the brain. Now we're all aware that Bell killed greater numbers of elephant with the 7x57mm cartridge than most modern hunters will kill in total in their lifetime. However none of these three cartridges will turn the elephant from a charge should you miss the brain...

The minimum caliber should the the largest caliber above the minimum .375 H&H that the shooter can accurately shoot...again with a proper bullet.

Cap,

FYI, I have seen the 375 H&H turn an elephant charge with a shot that missed the brain. Bigger calibers just do it more reliably but none can be counted on to do it for sure evry time.

465H&H

looking at the minimum caliber requirements posted on one of the African forums here i see that it says the minimum for dangerous game is .375 caliber and doesn't mention a cartridge. so that makes me wonder what keeps some nut from going out for elephant with a .375 Winchester cartridge? of course i'm sure a guide would'nt let a client use such a cartridge but i wonder why the minimum requirements posted here don't mention cartridge because just saying .375 caliber could mean any .375 cartridge. so that's one of the reasons my questions asks minimum cartridge. also i want to know what people consider the minimum power/energy level for elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Pez your question is an oxymoron.

maybe i should've worded it better but when i said smallest, least powerful cartridge i meant smallest bullet, shell casing combo. basically i just meant least powerful cartridge.

I know people who have killed African elephants with revolvers chambered in .44 magnum.

George

I think the .375 H&H with 300 grain North Fork solid bullets is perfectly adequate, having shot one bull with it.

BTW: Zim not only specifies the caliber but also the minimum striking energy. In Zim a 9.3x62mm is legal if hand loaded pretty warmly but nobody will know its velocity.

quote:

I know people who have killed African elephants with revolvers chambered in .44 magnum.

I believe Larry Kelly has done that few times with the hard-cast lead bullets I. crazy stuff.

Larry, and a few others.

George

9.3x62 or 9.3x74R with "well placed shots".
With a not so good shot or in thick cover a 450NE.

I have shot a few elephants.
So here are my thoughts.

When shooting cow elephants, I would only shoot a cow elephant in the head at 15 yards or less.

Getting close, and making a brain shot is the reason for hunting cows IMHO...
I have shot a cow elephant at 5 yards with a 9,3x74R double rifle. I have shot them from 12 yards to 3 yards with my 450 No2.

When I was hunting elephant bulls for Ivory, I have shot them from 120 yards, body shots with my 450 No2, a Head shot at 6 yards, and a head shot at around 40 yards with my 450/400 3 1/4"...

I would not want to body shoot an elephant with anything less than a 450/400 in a double and a 404 Jeffery in a Bolt gun...

Always the most accurate shot has the highest likelihood of doing the job the best.

Hey H,

I have no doubt that you have seen 375 H&H turn an elephant charge. Typically one reads the comments that the 375 H&H failed to turn the elephant but the PHs – typically insert 500NE here – turned the elephant at the last minute.

Pez,

It’s been awhile since I’ve gone through the African country-by-country listing regulation caliber/muzzle energy requirements for use against dangerous game. However the best of my recollection, when these regulation requirements were 1st written, at least within those country areas controlled by Britain, the .375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express and the .375 Belted Rimless Nitro Express (aka: .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) were the only .375 caliber commercially loaded cartridges that met minimum caliber and met or exceeded the Joules (Ft Pounds) Muzzle Energy requirement.

I apologize, I should have been more correct in my earlier response.

Today there are a number of commercial or wildcat .375 caliber cartridges that will meet or exceed the muzzle energy regulation requirements.

I would use my "soon to be finished" 404 Jeff. Nothing less..

M

Why in the world would anyone who has been around Elephant go hunting for one with the "minimum" or, as the .375H&H is also described, "adequate" rifle cartridge? Sorry, but I just don't get it.

BTW, I killed my first bull Ele 15 years ago with a .375H&H (before I knew better) and immediately started looking for a bigger gun. I used a .458Lott last September on my last Ele and will be using my new .458B&M this August for my next one.

Ruark said, "Use enough gun"; he didn't say use the minimum or adequate gun.

Mike,

quote:

Originally posted by Pez:
maybe i should've worded it better but when i said smallest, least powerful cartridge i meant smallest bullet, shell casing combo. basically i just meant least powerful cartridge.

Because he's never seen an elephant up close in the wild.

i only made this thread out of curiosity and conversation about elephant cartridges not because i want to use the minimum when i go for elephant. if i hunted elephant on a regular basis i would want to use the most powerful cartridge i could handle for at least 95% of the time. maybe for 5% or less of the time i would use a 450/400 3'' just for something different. but i've always considered the .375H&H to be the minimum cartridge that was still a true elephant cartridge but i've heard and read quite a few times that it was not an elephant cartridge at all, so i wanted to see what you guys here thought about this subject. i also consider the 450/400 NE 3'' and .404 Jeffery to be minimum elephant cartridges. and i think my Remington model 700 BDL in .375RUM is a elephant rifle and would love to use it at least once on an elephant with a 300gr bullet at 3000fps. another cartridge that interest me and i actually think generates enough energy to be considered well above minimum is the .378Wby and i really kind of like that cartridge. anyway this is just a topic of interest and curiosity to me because i like the subject of elephant hunting and the cartridges used for it so very much. it id definately one of if not my favorite type of firearms. hopefully and actually most likely one day i will have a very good collection of dangerous game rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Ruark said, "Use enough gun"; he didn't say use the minimum or adequate gun.

+1

I would use a 375H&H or a 9.3x62 or 74R if a larger calibre, higher energy rife weren't available. In fact, my second rifle for elephant hunting trips is a 375H&H.

Elephants climb remarkably well, and I bought a light weight 375H&H double rifle with the thought of using that rifle when terrain warrants, its a full 2 1/4lbs lighter than my go to elephant rifle, which is a double rifle in 458wm loaded with 500gr solids at 2135fps or 450gr solids at 2220fps. Even a 458 feels like a minimal rifle when the bush is really thick and the elephants ornery. You start to think 500NE in the thick bush...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I would use a 375H&H or a 9.3x62 or 74R if a larger calibre, higher energy rife weren't available. In fact, my second rifle for elephant hunting trips is a 375H&H.

Elephants climb remarkably well, and I bought a light weight 375H&H double rifle with the thought of using that rifle when terrain warrants, its a full 2 1/4lbs lighter than my go to elephant rifle, which is a double rifle in 458wm loaded with 500gr solids at 2135fps or 450gr solids at 2220fps. Even a 458 feels like a minimal rifle when the bush is really thick and the elephants ornery. You start to think 500NE in the thick bush...

JPK

i kind of consider the .458Win. Mag to be a minimum elephant cartridge myself, although i'm sure it performs well on said game.

With any cartrige you need to know what its stong points and weak points are. Then avoid situations where the weak points can cause a problem.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
With any cartrige you need to know what its stong points and weak points are. Then avoid situations where the weak points can cause a problem.

465H&H

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I would use a 375H&H or a 9.3x62 or 74R if a larger calibre, higher energy rife weren't available. In fact, my second rifle for elephant hunting trips is a 375H&H.

Elephants climb remarkably well, and I bought a light weight 375H&H double rifle with the thought of using that rifle when terrain warrants, its a full 2 1/4lbs lighter than my go to elephant rifle, which is a double rifle in 458wm loaded with 500gr solids at 2135fps or 450gr solids at 2220fps. Even a 458 feels like a minimal rifle when the bush is really thick and the elephants ornery. You start to think 500NE in the thick bush...

JPK

Good to see you posting again. Wondered where you had gone.

Put me down for .458 WM too.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Ruark said, "Use enough gun"; he didn't say use the minimum or adequate gun.

Ruark and others of his ilk said a lot of things; after their 5th or so whiskey!

If we look at the real professional elephant hunters of yesteryear who cared to use, observe and note down their experiences with a range of guns on elephant, the various 40 calibre cartridges of the times were considered perfectly adequate for use on elephant under most conditions, not of course the extreme conditions, which is not what Pez was asking.

Pondoro Taylor recommended the double 450/400 as an ideal gun for all DG shooting including elephant with it's bolt action equivalent, the 404 Jeffery, the latter having true credentials having been used on elephant culling operations across much of Africa. Taylor acknowledged the 375 H&H as being useable on Elephant but couched this in terms of precision shot placement.

Today's hunter never faces the extreme conditions on his own and irrespective of what gun he is using, his PH usually backs up the hunters shot within milliseconds even when the animal maybe going down.

I am always interested in the comment by some that after their first time on elephant with what ever cartridge they are using, they make the move to a bigger one. Is this from fright on their first encounter, fear of not being confident in placing the shot, a nagging fear that their rifle or bullet is not going to be up to the task, what is it?

As I posted on another thread, there is enough video and reports around that causes me to be a little skeptical on the bigger is always going to be better. I have seen some fine DRT shots with a variety of cartridges where the PH has not had to intervene, funnily enough many with the 40 cals. Conversely there are shots taken with large bores where the PH has most definitely had to intervene.

As with all game hunting with any cartridge it will always come back to proper shot placement whether head or body shots. If a hunter can't consistently do this then he will never be successful on his own and will lose animals or require back up on DG.

To me the best gun/cartridge combination for DG will be the most consistently accurate and reliable combination that the hunter is fully confident in placing his shots with. If this happens to be a 375 cal then that hunter is guaranteed success.

JPK - Good to hear from you again. Hope all is well with you. Welcome back.

eagle27 - I am at a complete lack of words, unlike you.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
JPK - Good to hear from you again. Hope all is well with you. Welcome back.

eagle27 - I am at a complete lack of words, unlike you.

Have a few whiskeys, they'll all come tumbling out then

Charles, Lion Hunter,

Thanks, good to be back. The economy has been tough on the company I run, and I've been nose to the grindstone. But the company is on the mend.

I stayed away since it would have been torture to participate and know no hunt was forthcoming.

It's been three and a half years since my last hunt and I need to go elephant hunting again. Probably next year, but maybe late this season.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Why in the world would anyone who has been around Elephant go hunting for one with the "minimum" or, as the .375H&H is also described, "adequate" rifle cartridge? Sorry, but I just don't get it.

BTW, I killed my first bull Ele 15 years ago with a .375H&H (before I knew better) and immediately started looking for a bigger gun. I used a .458Lott last September on my last Ele and will be using my new .458B&M this August for my next one.

Ruark said, "Use enough gun"; he didn't say use the minimum or adequate gun.

Adequate is enough and minimum is adequate...."Use enough...." is adequate, etc...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Charles, Lion Hunter,

Thanks, good to be back. The economy has been tough on the company I run, and I've been nose to the grindstone. But the company is on the mend.

I stayed away since it would have been torture to participate and know no hunt was forthcoming.

It's been three and a half years since my last hunt and I need to go elephant hunting again. Probably next year, but maybe late this season.

JPK

JPK, as others noted it is nice to see you around!

Best,

jjs

I have shot a couple of elephants one with a 500 and the other with a .458 Lott and I can only suggest the minimum is the biggest cartridege you can handle accuratly at around 25 yards give or take.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Ruark said, "Use enough gun"; he didn't say use the minimum or adequate gun.

Ruark and others of his ilk said a lot of things; after their 5th or so whiskey!

...and Id be much more interested in what Mr.Selby would say, rather than Ruark.

I'd suggest that any cartridge that you and your best two friends can pick up.

Jim