I am still trying to learn as much as a can about the big bores. I have seen the arguments of the .458 Win Mag vs. the .458 Lott for dangerous game. Most people feel that the Lott is better since it has a greater velocity. What I don't understand is that people feel that the .458 Win Mag is good but could be improved, but the .470 Nitro is enough and can't be improved? Aren't they comparable for energy and velocity? I have been reading the data off the reloading pages just as reference, with some averages the .458 Win and the .470N seem comparable with 500 Grain Bullets. All I am going off of is that data on the reloading pages and trying to understand. I do know most .470's are doubles which is a great option for charging game, but wouldn't it be comparable to a .458 Win??

Thanks for helping me understand.

Pressure, with the big bores for africa they are looking for lower pressure in the performance. The 458 is supposed to operate at a high pressure to achieve its velocities, I believe I even read that Selby using a 458 Win would pull and reload his ammo each year to avoid pressure problems.

The 470 is a low pressure round.

The Lott will do CLAIMED Winmag velocities at lower pressure.

Red

what he said...

the best initial big bore investment is the 416 rigby on the 550 cz platform

Much of the unfavorable lore surounding the 458wm is based on some problems long ago with ammo which suffered from incomplete ignition due to powder compaction and storage issues. These problems were apparently originally adressed by ammo makers by loading std factory fodder down. Newer powders have allowed factory fodder to be loaded back up to near original velocity and beyond. See the Federal ammo and the Hornaday heavy mag ammo for instance. Guys who have chronographed this stuff claim the are getting what the factories quote or very close. Handloading can meet or exceed the Federal performance without issue. Some newer powders are temperature insensitive, which allows reloading without consideration of possible heat encountered in Africa too, a past pressure concern.

If you have a 458wm it will be a fine performer with the modern factory ammo noted above or with hand loads that meet or exceed the Federal numbers.

IMO, the best use of a Lott is to get 2150fps or 2200fps in a lower pressure package without the need for compressed pwder loads. It is what the 458wm should have been from the beginning.

Their is no reason to improve the 470 performance. It is time proven. In fact with a 500 grain bullet at 2150fps it is nearly identical to the all time benchmark which is the 450NE 3 1/4". This grandfather of all smokeless powder dangerous game cartridges pushes a 480 grain bullet at 2150fps. But likely there was some optomism in the original number likewise in the original 470.

(FWI, the reason the 470NE was developed is that the British authorities in a really uneccessary, not well thought out move banned 45 calibre weapons, ammunition, and bullets from the Sudan - and India? - to prevent rebels from benefitting from their access to 45 cal Martini/Henry rifles.)

JPK

The 458 Win Mag is a fine "FIRST TRY" at makeing a cartridge, for a bolt rifle, that would duplicate the old 450NE 3 1/4" double rifle round. Many say the 458 WM was trying to duplicate the 470NE, but this is not true. Well, maybe, but only indirrectly! What I mean by that is, the 470NE was designed to duplicate the 450NE 3 1/4", when all .450s were outlawed in 1909, for India, and the Sudan. So all the 470, 465, and 475 NITRO cartridges were designed to dup the 450NE, and the 458 Win Mag just came later.

The problems suffered by the 458 WM are still with us today, and there is only one thing wrong with it, and that is, CASE CAPACITY, or LACK THERE OF! The balistics can be found in the 458 WM case today, but it is still pushing the envelope. The very simple fix, is to simply use the 458LOTT, which is the 458WM with a little extra room for powder. Of all of the cartridges mentioned above, none are better, truth be known, than the old 450NE 3 1/4" ! To show you I'm convenced of what I say, I have a brand new 470NE Merkel double rifle that I will consider a trade for any decent 450NE 3 1/4" double rifle, with boot, up or down!

The complaints levelled at the 458 win mag wasn't that it was too slow as designed, ie 500 gr @ 2100 fps, but rather that the case is too small to hold sufficient powder to reliably achieve that performance in African field conditions. I've yet to read any credible complaint about 500's @ 2100 being insufficient, rather that the 458 win mag on occasion would produce much less than that in the field with some ammo.

The Lott was a reasonable response to having enough powder space, and a relatively straightforward modification to 458 win mags and without requiring hard to come by brass.

The 470 NE is noted as needing improvement, because it has an evniable record of success in the field.

If more speed were the answer, then Jack Lott and other 458 win mag detractyor would simply have gotten 460 Weatherbies.

Thanks for helping me understand. I own a .458 Win that I like but case capacity is always an issue. Thanks for putting in why the .470 was invented.

Here's a great read!!!