Disclaimer - the people in the video have far more experience with DG hunting than I do. I am only going off "conventional wisdom" and what makes sense to me.

Now having said that, I have always had it drilled into me to keep the butt on my shoulder, and cycle the bolt to get back on target with a loaded round as quickly as possible. Something I have always attempted to do when hunting any game.

I would be interested in the opinions of forum members on the content of the attached programming:

Without watching the video, I think that I can operate my M70 in the dark and without further coaching. Maybe I am in the choir?

The way I think I do it is when the shot goes off and the muzzle rises off the target, I open the bolt and cycle another round while I bring the muzzle back down to the target.If the animal runs after the shot that may require lowering the rifle off the shoulder so you can see where the animal is.

To each his own but I would offer the following:

1. With the controlled feed rifles I have used (Springfield 1903, Winchester Pre-64 Model 70, 98 Mauser, Dakota 76/97, Heym Martini Exress, etc.) the bolt must be fully and forcefully opened to eject the fired case. Since the bolt must be fully opened to eject the spent case only a magazine that feeds poorly can cause a round to not be chambered when the bolt is closed. That being said, preventing short cycling an action is a matter of trainng. For the control feel rifles the muscle memory is not the length of the bolt stroke but "banging the bolt stop". That is an argument for a bolt rifle that has a non-spring loaded ejector.

2. Chanbering a follow up round with a bolt action rifle is MUCH quicker when done with the rifle on the shoulder and can be started as you recover from recoil.

3. You can see the ejected case in your perifferal vision when operating the bolt from your shoulder and keep your eyes on the game.

4. With the typical low power scope used for dangerous game you can, and should; be shooting with both eyes open so you non-shooting eye can still see the game.

5. Even with practice at shouldering a rifle you still must reestablish a cheek weld and find the view through the scope. With the current trend of 6 and 8 times zoom scopes with telescope size objectives the firm cheek weld is lost due to the required high mounting of the scope. With these scopes keeping the rifle on your shoulder becomes even more critical for a rapid follow up shot. At least for me I find the now discontiued Zeiss Victory HT 1.5 to 6 power in low mounts is all I need. I use that scope on both my DG and plains game bolt action rifles.

6. If reloading of the magazine is required it should be done with the rifle held at mid chest level so the game can be kept in sight. This should be practiced so it can mostly be done by feel.

If you have to take the rifle off your shoulder to chamber another round.

You need more practice working the bolt from the shoulder.

The problem is not a magnum length action it is the lack of practice.

I, like the big majority of left handed shooters who use right handed bolt guns, have to take the rifle off the shoulder to operate the bolt. I have never found this a handicap and thus have never bothered with left hand bolt actions.
One of the obvious advantages to this stance is that I can use anyone else's rifle as they can mine and when it come to sale there is by far a much larger market for right hand bolt guns.

The other advantage which also applies to right handers taking the rifle down from the shoulder to reload, is that you can watch the game and it also provides a little 'hesitation' to prevent blazing away shots as is often seen with those using semi-autos, levers and pumps.

I vary rarely see any right handed shooter reloading while on the shoulder, most take it down including clients and PHs on dangerous game hunts from what I see on video.

I think reloading from the shoulder stems from military use where soldiers were laying down or leaning over parapets, trenches etc.
Nothing wrong with the practice if done properly but many who do, seem rather clumsy with it and more likely to have a fuck up than not.

IMO I don't think anyone is handicapped when taking the rifle off the shoulder to reload.

I just use a double for most DG where a quick second shot is important."...........

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I, like the big majority of left handed shooters who use right handed bolt guns, have to take the rifle off the shoulder to operate the bolt...

Actually as a lefty you do not have to take it off the shoulder.

Shooting a right handed .458 B&M left handed.

https://youtu.be/1P-k55wAoc4

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I, like the big majority of left handed shooters who use right handed bolt guns, have to take the rifle off the shoulder to operate the bolt...

Actually as a lefty you do not have to take it off the shoulder.

Shooting a right handed .458 B&M left handed.

https://youtu.be/1P-k55wAoc4

True and I have seen some hold the gun to the shoulder just with their left hand around the wrist and work the bolt with the right. Quite clumsy and IMO hard on the stock wrist as all the weight forward of the wrist is hanging off it. Couldn't be done if on the move either.

Now show us a video shooting the 458 B&M left handed with the scope in place

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
...
Now show us a video shooting the 458 B&M left handed with the scope in place

That was Michael's. Mine wouldn't be as much of a challenge.

quote:

Originally posted by WR500:
I just use a double for most DG where a quick second shot is important."...........

I had never heard it explained before but have some sympathy with that South African YouTube outlook.

Having short stroked a couple of rifles even when just shooting at deer, I know it can happen. I like to think I will cycle from the shoulder but bet it doesn't happen all the time.

With magnum actions the longer bolt increases the chance you'll either short-stroke it or hit yourself in the face if you don't lift your head - which takes me back to my defence of the 458WM in standard-length actions.

So, considering these matters, I used WR500's logic before going to Africa, and bought a double rifle. The season before going I used nothing but that rifle or, at the skeet range, my father's AyA sidelock - and always let the empties fly.

PS: gbs has a good point concerning the need to mount scopes high because of the larger power multiples in modern variables. The world really has gone nuts, trying to get one up on critters at any cost.

Piet Nel, ex Rhodesian knows what he talks about. Took my wife and friends and did the Southern African Wildlife College "Elephant course" with Piet in beginning of November 2019 walked up to a 65 pounder bull, that got interested and stopped just 5 yards from us.

I can strongly recommend you to do the course before your first elephant hunt.

Alos Kevin "Doctari" has some knowledge in dangerous game hunting

I started competitive shooting with in 1960 with a heavy barrel 1903 Springfield, which I had fitted with a Fajen stock.

I continued with the sport as an active duty Marine, first as captain of the Headquarters Battalion rifle team in the Far Eastern Division Matches in Okinawa and later as a member of the Quantico base team, back in the US.

As a reservist, I was a member of the All Reserve Marine Corps Reserve Team and as a civilian, captain of the Tennessee State Rifle Association Team for a number of years.

As a competitive shooter, I routinely fired more rounds in a year in practice and in actual competition than the average hunter would fire in a lifetime.

I had three Model 70 Winchester match rifles, all built by George Fullmer, a prominent bench rest gunsmith, on which I kept a careful round count and rebarreled or set back and rechambered the barrels after each 2000 rounds had been fired.

I would never have considered taking the rifle from my shoulder, except to reload, during a rapid fire string, and the same holds true with my hunting rifles.

Now that a vision problem with my right eye has caused me to shift to shooting from my left shoulder, I have acquired a modest battery of left handed rifles, with which I practice frequently to try to reach the same level of performance as I had with my right handed ones.

My LH Ruger Model 77 in .358 Norma Magnum is my favorite live fire practice vehicle, using jacketed pistol bullets and reduced loads.

On one African hunt, we came across a pack of Cape hunting dogs, who had just killed an impala on the private land we were hunting on. These animals are normally protected, but not on private property, where they wreak havoc with the sheep flocks. MY PH asked me to shoot them.

We stopped the hunting car and I walked toward them, carrying my Model 70 Winchester .300 H&H. The dogs at first ignored me, and let me approach to quite close range, but scattered with the first shot. I fired five times at five different dogs and killed four of them, never taking the rifle from my shoulder and experienced no difficulty with cycling the long action in so doing.

The rifle was (and is) equipped with a 4X fixed power scope.

The ability to operate a bolt action rifle without taking it from the shoulder requires practice, including a good deal of dry firing, preferably with dummy rounds with snap caps, which I highly recommend.

I have always reloaded a bolt action from the shoulder.

Mark V Wby is best in my book and I think the heavy bolt is the key. However, I have always found mixing a Mark V with any 2 lug action is not good. If I use a 2 lug action after a lot of Mark V use I find I try and pull the bolt back before the bolt is open. From the other side, if I have been using a 2 lug action a lot and then go to Mark V I am still trying to open the bolt on the Mark V when it is fully open.

To me, the heavy Mark V bolt sees to give a flywheel effect and is the fastest action. Short stroking won't happen using a Mark V in fast mode.

The 378 based Mark V calibres with their centre line feed take a lot of beating.

As Bill pointed out, long time familiarity with your choice and lots of shooting are the only proven methods to expertise.

No matter whether it's a M 70, 1903, Mauser, Weatherby, SMLE, or Mannlicher Schoenauer

Learn to keep it on the shoulder.

An interesting topic and my comments would be that my Mauser actions require fairly aggressive working which is not always easy from the shoulder.

Much against the advice of some of you elders I like to drop the rifle a little to witness the cartridge feeding. In the field, dust can play havoc with feeding and I cannot afford to override a cartridge.

Just my 2 cents

Nothing beats experience!

In the field while hunting dangerous game.

Not on a shooting range.

I have watched people make screw up after screw up reloading their rifles while hunting.

While they do it so well in camp while practicing.

A ho hum thread, practice what works best for you..I do both from the shoulder or not, depends on the circumstances, the main thing is I don't stand there staring at an animal I just shot with the empty in the chamber..Shoot and reload and be ready for a follow up shot is the main thing..How many times have I seen a hunter shoot and then just watch the animal run off, some are just stunned, others are just cocky..

I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

One reason why doubles are slower for the 3rd and 4th shot.

Make your first shot count, and you don’t have to worry about it!

And you will also find that most African hunters handle a big bore rifle much more like a shotgun on exploding partridges, guinae fowl or quail. The whole mount is part of the aim and you are pushing towards your fast moving target with the trigger breaking as the butt hits the shoulder.

The keeping in shoulder is a military/ swat team thing - great with an MI6!

When I was a kid, my dad made me change shoulders from right to left side - he was determined to make me a better shot and I had vision problem in my right eye - despite being right handed. I mastered operating a right hand bolt rifle from the left side. I qualified 'expert' on NRA/DCM big bore - including rapid fire - using a Springfield target rifle and iron sights. I got pretty fast and could shot a rifle pretty well.

As I grew older I got more interested in shotgunning and started shooting targets and ended up shooting International Skeet in competition. This is a low gun game that does not allow re-thinking the target. I learned to acquire, mount, shoot and kill a target in less than one second - pretty standard stuff for this game, which includes a lot of fast doubles. So I learned to mount and shoot quickly, dismount, remount, and shoot the second target.

Meanwhile I shifted to left hand bolt guns for all my rifle shooting. But the habit of slightly dismounting the gun between shots stuck with me. I have seen Kevin Robertson's advice to demount when working the bolt, and others who insist that the gun must stay on the shoulder when working the bolt. The problem is that when the gun is at your shoulder, especially with a scoped gun, it severely limits the ability to see the target/game animal while working the bolt.

If one has perfected the dismount/remount routine I believe that it actually just as fast or faster to dismount the gun for reloading by virtue of the improved, rapid target acquisition and accurate remount time. If the gun FITS and comes to the shoulder naturally, there is no penalty in dismounting the gun between shots. Whether it is a rifle or a shotgun does not matter... the mount is consistently the same and no adjustment for a change of gun butt/ shoulder position is required.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I, like the big majority of left handed shooters who use right handed bolt guns, have to take the rifle off the shoulder to operate the bolt. I have never found this a handicap and thus have never bothered with left hand bolt actions.
One of the obvious advantages to this stance is that I can use anyone else's rifle as they can mine and when it come to sale there is by far a much larger market for right hand bolt guns.

The other advantage which also applies to right handers taking the rifle down from the shoulder to reload, is that you can watch the game and it also provides a little 'hesitation' to prevent blazing away shots as is often seen with those
using semi-autos, levers and pumps.

I vary rarely see any right handed shooter reloading while on the shoulder, most take it down including clients and PHs on dangerous game hunts from what I see on video.

I think reloading from the shoulder stems from military use where soldiers were laying down or leaning over parapets, trenches etc.
Nothing wrong with the practice if done properly but many who do, seem rather clumsy with it and more likely to have a fuck up than not.

IMO I don't think anyone is handicapped when taking the rifle off the shoulder to reload.

I felt this way too. Until one day I needed a second shot on a very large mule deer that I had hit on my first shot and needed to hit again. My normal way to shoot my RH Mauser 6.5 X 55 was to simply roll the rifle about 90 degrees to the left, reach across and work the bolt with my left hand. Only this time the ejected casing rose into the air, flipped over a couple of times and fell back into the bolt/magazine opening and jammed the gun. I quickly flipped it out, reloaded and got the final, killing shot off. This was my best mule deer (31-1/2" spread) and the last time I used a RH bolt rifle from the left side.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Make your first shot count, and you don’t have to worry about it!

Unless you break them down and they are DRT a fatally shot animal can travel into places that you don't want them to go.

More movement the slower the reload.

As a single shot user for a long time I agree that most of the time.

The difference in reload speed does not matter.

But there has been a few times where a very fast follow shot has made the difference in losing the animal or bringing it home.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

One reason why doubles are slower for the 3rd and 4th shot.

NO. They are not!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

One reason why doubles are slower for the 3rd and 4th shot.

NO. They are not!

You must hang around some very slow bolt gun users.

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I, like the big majority of left handed shooters who use right handed bolt guns, have to take the rifle off the shoulder to operate the bolt. I have never found this a handicap and thus have never bothered with left hand bolt actions.
One of the obvious advantages to this stance is that I can use anyone else's rifle as they can mine and when it come to sale there is by far a much larger market for right hand bolt guns.

The other advantage which also applies to right handers taking the rifle down from the shoulder to reload, is that you can watch the game and it also provides a little 'hesitation' to prevent blazing away shots as is often seen with those
using semi-autos, levers and pumps.

I vary rarely see any right handed shooter reloading while on the shoulder, most take it down including clients and PHs on dangerous game hunts from what I see on video.

I think reloading from the shoulder stems from military use where soldiers were laying down or leaning over parapets, trenches etc.
Nothing wrong with the practice if done properly but many who do, seem rather clumsy with it and more likely to have a fuck up than not.

IMO I don't think anyone is handicapped when taking the rifle off the shoulder to reload.

I felt this way too. Until one day I needed a second shot on a very large mule deer that I had hit on my first shot and needed to hit again. My normal way to shoot my RH Mauser 6.5 X 55 was to simply roll the rifle about 90 degrees to the left, reach across and work the bolt with my left hand. Only this time the ejected casing rose into the air, flipped over a couple of times and fell back into the bolt/magazine opening and jammed the gun. I quickly flipped it out, reloaded and got the final, killing shot off. This was my best mule deer (31-1/2" spread) and the last time I used a RH bolt rifle from the left side.

With due respect rolling the gun 90 degrees to the left and then ejecting cases vertically seems an exaggerated way for a lefty to operate a RH bolt gun. As a lefty I can operate the bolt of a RH gun without having to tilt the gun very little, the empties are ejected out to the right about the same as a right handed person using the gun.

Never ever had an issue with cases falling back into the action and you certainly wouldn't want that if facing a charge from something that was going to trample or eat you.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

One reason why doubles are slower for the 3rd and 4th shot.

NO. They are not!

You must hang around some very slow bolt gun users.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...EN8&feature=youtu.be


More like you've been hanging around some very slow double rifle shooters.

That is certainly an impressive demonstration of loading skill with a double rifle, but the preparations used don't appear to me to be compatible with conditions I have experienced in the field. For instance, when I was faced with a charging rhino with my .505 SRE, I was charged from behind, without warning and with no preparations on my part. Nevertheless, I managed to put four shots into my target, two of which had fatal effect. At the time, the rifle held only two down, so my fourth shot was loaded from the pocket, in this case a breast pocket fitted with cartridge loops.

I suppose it is possible to routinely carry cartridges in front and ready to be loaded as this double rifle shooter did, but it seems to me that exposing ammunition to the elements is not a good idea and a coating of dust and grit would not facilitate easy loading. In the areas I have hunted in, exposure to dust and grit were an every day condition, and ammunition had to be protected. I have also experienced situations where crawling was the only practical means of approaching game undetected, not recommended for this method of carrying ammunition.

I don't use the type of bolt manipulation demonstrated in this clip. I don't grasp the bolt handle, I sweep the bolt open with my index finger and close it with my thumb. A minor point, but one which saves valuable time. It is a technique which requires intensive practice, which my years on the rifle range as a competitive shooter have provided.

My understanding is that the technique used for the famous rapid fire achieved with the SMLE also involved the use of the forefinger to manipulate the bolt, but that the middle finger was used to operate the trigger, which I don't consider necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
That is certainly an impressive demonstration of loading skill with a double rifle, but the preparations used don't appear to me to be compatible with conditions I have experienced in the field. For instance, when I was faced with a charging rhino with my .505 SRE, I was charged from behind, without warning and with no preparations on my part. Nevertheless, I managed to put four shots into my target, two of which had fatal effect. At the time, the rifle held only two down, so my fourth shot was loaded from the pocket, in this case a breast pocket fitted with cartridge loops.

I suppose it is possible to routinely carry cartridges in front and ready to be loaded as this double rifle shooter did, but it seems to me that exposing ammunition to the elements is not a good idea and a coating of dust and grit would not facilitate easy loading. In the areas I have hunted in, exposure to dust and grit were an every day condition, and ammunition had to be protected. I have also experienced situations where crawling was the only practical means of approaching game undetected, not recommended for this method of carrying ammunition.

I disagree 100%. That IS my ammo belt I use when DG hunting with a DR. In this ele hunt video, I used the exact same belt and did a lot of crawling in tight quarters (as I've done on many other hunts, especially buffalo [quite a few of them videoed and posted on AR as well[). After the shot, I completed the reload before we all beat a hasty retreat from his buddy that charged us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...YwU&feature=youtu.be

I always take two cartridges and push them up just a bit before going in so as to make them easier to grab. I also order the rounds in alternating fashion on the belt so as to have two, then a space, then two, then a space, etc. I've never had any issue with dirt or moisture creating a problem with ammo carried in this manner.

Eagle27 - -

quote:

...and the last time I used a RH bolt rifle from the left side.

I use a SxS shotgun when hunting birds behind my dogs. If I am going in to flush a covey I will sometimes put two cartridges between the fingers of my leading hand for faster reloading after the flush. I have used this technique to shoot 3 or 4 birds on a covey flush. But you need to be quick.

Looking at the Todd's video again I see that the bolt rifle shooter is taking the rifle off of his shoulder with every round fired.That is a poor example of quick shooting with a bolt rifle,IMO.That said Todd's shooting seems quick.To make a good comparison video you need a faster bolt shooter, similar loads used for both shooters and shooters of equal size/strenght-the time it takes to recover from recoil plays a big role.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
I’m still trying to figure out how to reload for shots 3 & 4 in my .470 double rifle while not taking it off my shoulder?

One reason why doubles are slower for the 3rd and 4th shot.

NO. They are not!

……………...Todd is right shots three and four done properly with a double rifle are faster than most people shooting 3 and 4 from a bolt rifle. It has been proven on many occasions in rapid shooting four shot competitions for speed and accuracy.
Still one must practice which ever he chooses to use, and do what works best for that shooter.
……...……………...………..

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Looking at the Todd's video again I see that the bolt rifle shooter is taking the rifle off of his shoulder with every round fired.That is a poor example of quick shooting with a bolt rifle,IMO.That said Todd's shooting seems quick.To make a good comparison video you need a faster bolt shooter, similar loads used for both shooters and shooters of equal size/strenght-the time it takes to recover from recoil plays a big role.

George, Eric's shooting abilities were throughly hashed out in the original thread where I posted that video. You commented there several times.

Here is the link.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1321086881/p/1

Eric is a very experienced big bore shooter but we found that pushing the bolt speed to its absolute max resulted in jams in both his rifle and mine. And both of those rifles are well sorted guns with a significant level of custom work.

To your comments about him taking the rifle from the shoulder with each shot, watch it again. He did not. He took it off the shoulder on the 4th shot simply because the recoil knocked it off his shoulder. All shots prior to that one, he reloaded from the shoulder. Funny, re-reading all those comments from the original thread. We had guys claiming Eric was slow because he fired from the shoulder and others claiming he was slow because he took the rifle down each time. In fact, he reloaded twice from the shoulder and once took it down due to recoil.

Eric is a bit lighter than me, that's a valid point. But, he was shooting a 416 Rigby and I was shooting a 500NE. Less recoil for him being lighter, more recoil for me being heavier. Seems pretty much equal in terms of recoil recovery. Again, all covered in that original thread. As I mentioned in the original post, I didn't just grab any ole fella off the deer lease to do this test. I grabbed the very guy that got me into shooting double rifles, who has a lot of experience shooting big bores, and we tried to match recoil energy vs shooter size, as well as other considerations.

All that said, it's not really the point I was making with PDog. The point is, most think a double cannot compete with a bolt for the 3rd and 4th shots. In the hands of someone who knows how to shoot a double, that argument does not hold water. It really doesn't matter if another shooter fired the bolt gun faster than me with the double. The point is the double is not significantly slower than a bolt for shots 3 and 4 as most people think. My first shot was at 1:27. My 4th shot was at 1:33. That's 4 shots, including a reload, in 6 seconds. Let's say we found a bolt shooter to do it in 5 seconds. The point remains that with a double rifle, a trained shooter can get 4 rounds off in 6 seconds. I'm sure there are those that can best my time as well as I'm not a competition shooter, just a guy that practices, or more accurately, did practice a lot with doubles.

As to XAUSA's claim of his field experiences being different than my range demo, we had a troll named TRAX a few years ago that for whatever reason, obsessed about this shooting video and made the same comments. Trax and Will started the same conversation in that original thread as well, attempting to downplay the importance of practice. I posted the ele hunt above to confirm that my field experiences mirror my range practice. I use the same rifle, same ammo, same ammo belt, and load the belt in the same manner as demoed on the range in the shooting contest video. Fight like you train type of thing. Always break the action and dump the cases. Even after shot 4 in a 4 shot demo. Don't catch the brass on the range just like in the field.

His head comes up erect, his shoulder slumps and his head is completely off the sights with each shot.At least two times the rifle is off his shoulder.He is also getting pounded by the recoil much more than you are.The video needs a fellow your size and strength who is familiar with working the bolt.Then, possibly when you bring the rifle up after reloading, he would have finished shooting all four.I don't care what I said previously.I was stupid back then.Bolts don't jam when you work them fast-at least mine don't except for my CZ's.

George, you're still missing the point.

PDog says doubles are slower than bolt guns. That's a blanket statement that most people would agree with because it seems plausible on its face. Kind of like the masses questioning how killing an animal (hunting) can contribute to conservation. There are often more considerations than meets the eye at first glance.

I wonder what the answer would be if you asked 100 shooters who are not familiar, or only vaguely familiar with double rifles, "how long does it take a double rifle shooter to get off 4 shots"? I think most would be very surprised to hear that a proficient DR shooter can do it in 6 seconds. I'll bet most would say something more along the lines of 15 seconds or so.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
His head comes up erect, his shoulder slumps and his head is completely off the sights with each shot.At least two times the rifle is off his shoulder.He is also getting pounded by the recoil much more than you are.The video needs a fellow your size and strength who is familiar with working the bolt.Then, possibly when you bring the rifle up after reloading, he would have finished shooting all four.I don't care what I said previously.I was stupid back then.Bolts don't jam when you work them fast-at least mine don't except for my CZ's.

I would agree a piss poor example of how to work a bolt gun.

Now get a shot timer run 5 strings of shots each by 3 or 4 different shooters using both guns.

Of the same caliber using the same load.

Then take the averages then we will have a small example t0o work with.