jesus, DEAL WITH IT ... a 45/70 is a BIG HOLE not a big bore...

"i bet if you" .. .hit them with a 6.5mmMS in the brain they'll die....


yes, they will.. and the other 99.9999999% of of the shots means it's UNNESSECARILY WOUNDING an animal due to a bad choice in caliber...

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
I bet if you stick a 500 grain hard cast going 1500 fps at the muzzle directly into an elephant's brain it dies.

Yea, me too. The big problem is getting that hard cast bullet to the brain of an elephant so that it is still going 1500fps. Or getting it there at any speed.

Since your such an all fired up fan, why don't you go on over to Africa and try a frontal brain shot on a big old bull ele with your handy dandy 45/70.

JPK

Sorry if I offended anyone I was joking...

And I edited my post so it said 1500 fps at the muzzle, then added a link of proof.

Cheers to the big bore forum...

How bout a big hole forum?

Like I said, try a FRONTAL brainshot. That's both the most sporting shot and the one you will need to take when things go south as they occasionally do.

JPK

I'm 16, but when I'm 18 if you would sponsor a trip for me to Africa I will gladly attempt a full frontal brain shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
if you would sponsor a trip for me to Africa I will gladly attempt a full frontal brain shot.

This is the typical reply for the 45/70 coolaid drinkers.

Hopefully you will grow up, learn a few things and save enough to go to Africa to shoot an elephant that you earn on your own, from the $'s to the shoe leather. Anh hopefully you'll learn enough and wise up and take a real dangerous game rifle.

JPK

It looks like Ihotaal (the original poster on this thread) has quit the field and retreated from the

Maybe he's off hunting ele with his new Marlin

Well, I would have to say this subject spawns more argument than Ford/Chevy, Democrat/Republican, and .30-06/.270 all combined.

I have seen many on here condone slightly larger calibers in single shots for African hunts. IMHO I would feel a little safer with 5 shots of properly-loaded .45-70's in a fast-handling lever-gun than putin' all my eggs in one basket.

That aside, what about a modern-pressure load with a .45-120 with proper booolets? It has way more capacity than a .458 win mag or even the Lott. Only bad thing is it would be a single shot? Any ideas on this?

.530Woodleigh -- there was a discussion about the .45/120 in the double rifles forum recently. I think Jeffeoso is building a double in .45/120 -- but I may be wrong.......

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Sorry if I offended anyone I was joking...

And I edited my post so it said 1500 fps at the muzzle, then added a link of proof.

Cheers to the big bore forum...

How bout a big hole forum?

Don't worry Tyler most of these Walter Mitties
would never do anything the slightest bit dangerous.

Of course I'll be called a troll or a 45-70 Kool-Aid drinker for saying this but JPK needs to lighten up a bit.....

Thanks Whitworth, I'll check that out. Now here's a question: Has anyone straightened-out a 120 case to .475 caliber like J.D. Jones did the .45-70 case? I think that would make a fine dangerous game cartridge. .475X3.25" or .475 NITRO

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
Of course I'll be called a troll or a 45-70 Kool-Aid drinker for saying this but JPK needs to lighten up a bit.....

Maybe your right, but I've never been able to let a case of BS go unchallenged. And what been posted regarding the 45/70 is mostly pure form.

Tell me where I erred, factually, in my comments?

JPK

I know I shouldn't have read this thread, but I just couldn't help it.
As in many things in life, there are things that could be done but that doesn't mean should be done.
Countless whitetails have been killed with .22LR - who would admit they they are going to hit the woods this deer season just to prove they can kill a whitetail with a .22LR? I wouldn't think to do that and I would have zero respect for anyone who did. A deer and any game animal deserves a bit more respect.
I like my 45/70 and my 450 Marlins but neither will be coming to Africa when I go. My .416 and .600 absolutely. When I take a bead on that cape buffalo there should be no doubt that the kill will be as quick and humane as possible - a living creature deserves as much. Let's save the "what if" and "fine line" of whats adequate for internet discussion and inanimate targets.

I done kilt a horse with a .22 CB cap, graveyard dead. One shot!

Hey Moderators.

Somebody want to lock this thread before it takes up $1000 worth of Saeed's bandwidth beating a dead horse to pieces??

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
Of course I'll be called a troll or a 45-70 Kool-Aid drinker for saying this but JPK needs to lighten up a bit.....

Maybe your right, but I've never been able to let a case of BS go unchallenged. And what been posted regarding the 45/70 is mostly pure form.

Tell me where I erred, factually, in my comments?

JPK

I didn't say you erred. I said you need to lighten up a little and maybe understand that Tyler is 16 years old and coming here to gain knowledge. How about you explain your point of view to him in a way that won't turn a young shooter off to our sport because the older guys are grumpy a-holes? He sounds like a good kid who is thirsting for education. He deserves a little better treatment. JMHO

405 grain Punch bullet at 2050 FPS. Anyone believe that this is not adequate for Cape Buffalo

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
Of course I'll be called a troll or a 45-70 Kool-Aid drinker for saying this but JPK needs to lighten up a bit.....

Maybe your right, but I've never been able to let a case of BS go unchallenged. And what been posted regarding the 45/70 is mostly pure form.

Tell me where I erred, factually, in my comments?

JPK

I didn't say you erred. I said you need to lighten up a little and maybe understand that Tyler is 16 years old and coming here to gain knowledge. How about you explain your point of view to him in a way that won't turn a young shooter off to our sport because the older guys are grumpy a-holes? He sounds like a good kid who is thirsting for education. He deserves a little better treatment. JMHO

I'll buy that, but I have a problem believing that he is 16, etc. I'm open to being proven wrong, but what I read is troll. So prove me wrong, I'm willing.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
405 grain Punch bullet at 2050 FPS. Anyone believe that this is not adequate for Cape Buffalo

I'm one who doesn't believe it would prove adequate, in so far as reliable penteration and reliable bullet performance. But I'm willing to try it on dead critters to find out.

JPK

Just for you JPK:
Me playing some Rock Band at the most recent Stuco (student council, yes I am a responsible young citizen working to better my school) sleepover.


Me at a b-ball game with eye-black mustache (hurt my knee, couldn't play this year):


Please don't call me "troll" anymore. Killing an elephant with a 45-70 can and has been done, and although it would not be my first choice, I would hunt with one if it was what I had.

Those pictures kind of look like the things 16 year olds do, huh?

BTT

I've been following this thread. And I'm waiting to read an apology from the Great White Hunter, Elephant/45-70 expert. At least that's what a real man would do.

Odd that a 45-70 has and will end for end a Cape Buffalo. Or punch through a big Cape bull and kill the one behind him also, but it won't penetrate the front of an elephant's skull?

I'm not so sure that it's not that it won't. It's that some just don't want to admit that it will, because by doing so would be an admission that they can't justify having one or more high dollar African Safari rifles, when an old standby will get the job done. It kind of puts a dent in that "Dark Continent" mystique.

Never been to Africa, but having been a 45-70 shooter for many years. I can assure you that a 45-70 with the right load and bullet, wouldn't have any difficulty in penetrating an Elephant's skull.

I'm waiting for an apology from JPK.

By the way it's lunch hour so I'm in the lab.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Just for you JPK:
Me playing some Rock Band at the most recent Stuco (student council, yes I am a responsible young citizen working to better my school) sleepover.
Please don't call me "troll" anymore. Killing an elephant with a 45-70 can and has been done, and although it would not be my first choice, I would hunt with one if it was what I had.

Those pictures kind of look like the things 16 year olds do, huh?

Ok, I'll apologize of beating up on a real youngster as opposed to a troll pretending to be a youngster.

Still doesn't make your arguement work though.

JPK

Thanks for the apology, no hard feelings.

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:

So slug, whats your problem?

JPK

When you qualify an apology like that, is it really an apology? Basically you're saying "I apologize but I'm right and you're wrong."

I'm actually on the side that thinks shooting African dangerous game with a 45-70 is not the best idea but I'm still open-minded and know it's been done with decent results.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
When you qualify an apology like that, is it really an apology? Basically you're saying "I apologize but I'm right and you're wrong."

I'm actually on the side that thinks shooting African dangerous game with a 45-70 is not the best idea but I'm still open-minded and know it's been done with decent results.

Yes, it was a qualified appology for not knowing that Tyler is really 16, and realizing that I was once 16 and all that that implies, like arguing a point without any real life experience.

I'm actually on the side (of one maybe?) that believes there is a 45/70 combination of bullet and powder load that might prove to be a buff capable stalwarth. And I blieve that combunation hasn't been found yet, or certainly proved. I don't believe "hard cast" bullets have the intergirty, know that 450gr bullets don't have the velocity. But my experiences with flat nose North Fork solids proves beyond any doubt that the flat nose solids provide much better penetration performance than round nose solids, so I think there is a happy combination somewhere between 450grs at 2200fps and the so called "hot loaded" hard cast at 400 or 500grs or so. But then you probably wouldn't know that, eh?

Edited to add: My definition of adequate approximately equals what a 500gr round nose solid will do on buff at ~2000fps. This means penetration to the heart on a rear quartering shot, without fail, and penetration to the liver or so from behind.

I also believe that shooting an elephant with any possible combination of 45/70 bullet and powder load is stupid.

I base my opinions on experience with the 458wm.

To test others' theories on the 45/70 and their favorite loads, I'm taking a selection, loaded to the bullet provider's specs, but loaded in the 458wm case, so I can shoot them in my rifle, and I'm going to shoot them into dead critters this May.

I'll be trying Brian Pearce's bullet and load - so long as the promised bullets arrive (not promised by Pearce, fyi) - as well as others.

I'm not sure how many buff will be on my ticket, if any, but several elephants will be and it seems to me a couple of elephant rumps will create a fair comparisson between a 450gr North Fork flat nose solid at 2200fps, 500gr Woodleigh solid 458wm load at 2145fps, a 480gr Woodleigh solid, 450NE equivelent load at 2100fps, a 45/70 "hard cast" load at the bullet provider's spec - can't recall offhand, and Pearce's bullet and load at his velocity.

So, what have you done lately to advance this pissing contest?

JPK

If you are going to do this testing could you include the Garret loads? It looks as if you have plenty of money to test with. And if you would please, send me the results if they aren't posted in this forum.

If you have a high strength action don't forget Ruger level loads.

Tyler,

The Garrett's are loaded in the 45/70, all of my test will be with bullets provided by others for testing and loaded into 458wm cases, but to the provider's specs.

You will learn later in life that time is money and if you are as fortunate in life as I hope you are, you will learn that both time and $'s are limited, in my cae, at least this year, it is time that is the more limiting factor. My hunt will run about $530/hour, based on being awake 16hrs each day the hunt runs.

At this rate, taking an hour or two or more to test bullets in each elephant killed is painful. Since time is now more scarce than $'s for me this year, I will have a list on quota which will only be realized if I hunt hard as hell from pre-dawn wake-up to well past sunset sundowners. If I leave without filling my quota, much of the cost of which are prepaid, so be it, so long as I've given my best to the hunt. Throw in bullet testing, which I've done on every previuos hunt, and it may cost me $10k or $20k if an elephant quota goes unfilled. That makes the testing painful, at least until the last elephant is down, and who knows when that will occur, but it defintely won't be early in the hunt because of the quota I've arranged.

Given that, it may come down to what time of day an elephant is killed, early and we can do recovery same day, late and there is no time, mid afternoon and maybe recovery isn't possible til next day, allowing a couple of hours "spare time".

Read my post in "African Hunting Reports" to read about bullet performance recorded in past hunts for eles and buff.

JPK

BTW, I just realized that my hunt will run ~$9/minute. Sometimes even I think I'm nuts. But it will give you an idea of my conviction to give at least some testing a try and also my mania for elephant hunting.

JPK

JPK, I assume you are aware that .45-70 loads in a .458 case will give lower velcities so this really isn't truley representative of a real-live .45-70 load. Also, I have no idea how much more powder it would take to make up the difference. I guess this would kinda put us in the ball park, but make the .45-70 look less powerful than it actually is.

The gun shooting the guy beating the dead horse is just because this topic alwaysstirs the $h!t pot.

quote:

Originally posted by .530Woodleigh:
JPK, I assume you are aware that .45-70 loads in a .458 case will give lower velcities so this really isn't truley representative of a real-live .45-70 load. Also, I have no idea how much more powder it would take to make up the difference. I guess this would kinda put us in the ball park, but make the .45-70 look less powerful than it actually is.

The gun shooting the guy beating the dead horse is just because this topic alwaysstirs the $h!t pot.

I know I don't always share the same humor that others do, but I gotta say that if your post isn't purely in jest, you should never reload, period, not even a BB gun.

Have you ever heard of a "chronograph"?

JPK

Heard of one, hell I own and use one. A BB gun really? Wasn't aware one could reload for a spring air rifle. I have been safely reloading for just almost 20 years- Thank You.

My point was that I can tell you to load to my specs and in a .458 case it will be a mild load, when in reality it might blow someone's .45-70 action to kingdom come. Sorry if you misread. Thought all the humorous icons would give it away.

I'm not sure I would go after an Elephant with a .45-70 really, but I might! Hell, saw an idiot kill a pretty darn big one on one of those TV type shows with a damn BOW & ARROW! Now, I think that would be damn foolhardy, but I'm not gunna stop anyone from doing so as long as it's legal. And I sure think it would fun to watch from a helecopter. But I'd sure rather use a .45-70 then a bow. The late and great (in my book) gunsmith, and good friend, 'Larry Brace' would hunt Buffalo in Africa about every year, and took everyone, including a very large Elephant, with a .375 H&H. He stongly felt they ALL died very easily as long as you hit them right the first time. That rifle was the only one he owned as far as I know, and he shot everything including little Blacktail Deer here in oregon with it, so was very proficient with that rifle. He did say he saw many others make poor hits and then the buffalo were hell to stop. He never had that problem. I would suggest anyone that thinks everyone NEEDS something so much bigger, simply learn to shoot! I have personally seen great white hunters as they refered to themselves, with really big bores shoot. Most were really rather pathetic shots for the most part, and figured if they just used something REALLY big, all would be fine. I would suggest that if you have a problem with someone legally using a .45-70 on dangerous game, that you seek some help for your insecurities and leave those that choose to hunt with what they want, the hell alone. I personally am getting tired of hearing it. Go tell the Bow hunters how stupid they are and leave the rest of us riflemen the hell alone. AND learn to shoot effectively for Gods sake! Now; where's my "Big Bore' Marlin .45 Colt, with the 250 grain cast pure lead bullets? Think I'll head to Africa and kill me one of them Elephants, maybe even a Buffler.

Never been elephant hunting, eh?

Go ahead and take your 45 Colt to Africa and shoot an elephant and a buff. The come on back and tell us how well it worked, and how your PH had to shoot your game for you.

BTW, the 375H&H is a well proven dangerous game cartridge with almost 100 years of success behind it. Not so the 45/70.

JPK

JPK, The .45 Colt was a joke, which I figured anyone would figure out. I am well aware of the history the .375 H&H has. It is my favorite caliber period! The few that have used the heavy loaded .45-70s had the guides want them to leave the little lever guns there for their own use. But I'm sure you knew all about that, did'nt you.? I am beginning to wonder if you simply like to argue with people that do not hold your opinion. Or are you sincerely concerened for the .45-70 users safety? I thought that was why the guides had the stopping rifles. . . . And, no, I have never been Elephant hunting, but would love to do so. I do however have about 450 head of big game under my belt, so am no newby either. How bout you?