With all the discussion of the CEB bullets, I decided to give them a try. I am reporting my results for those that might be interested or considering these bullets for their big bore. I will leave the penetration testing to others.

The rifle I was using is a .458 Win Mag built on a Springfield action. The barrel is a 24" Shilen. The optics are a red dot sight off of a Sig Sauer 556 (not sure of the maker or model).

The load I used was 64 grains of RL7, a F215M primer, in Norma cases. By comparison, the 64 grain load of RL7 gets just under 2200 fps with a 500 grain Woodleigh solid in this rifle. I shot both CEB solids and non-cons. The average velocity with the 450 grain CEB solids was 2330 fps (the spread between high and low was 20 fps across eight rounds, high of 2342 fps and a low of 2322 fps). The average velocity with the 420 grain CEB non-cons was 2387 fps (high was 2393 fps and low was 2382 fps). I was surprised by the relatively tight spread in velocities (high-to-low). I was also surprised by the felt recoil. This could all be in my head but to me the felt recoil with the CEB bullets (450 grains at 2330 fps) was less than with the Woodleighs (500 grains at ~2200 fps). Accuracy speaks for itself (six-shot group shot at 50 yards off of sticks). The three rounds shot with solids are circled in black. The other three rounds were non-cons. The tight grouping of the 450 grain and 420 grain bullets is certainly a plus.

Ordered some more this afternoon.

That's a lot better than some other recent groups posted lately

Mike - I can't shoot a group like that with a scoped rifle! As for the CEB's, I used them on buffalo/elephant in September, and I thought they were awesome in my .577NE. I think you'll like em just fine on game too.

Mike,
I am copying this post to my CEB Anecdote thread so I won't lose track of the load data. Thanks.

Mike,

I had similar results/groups from my .458Lott with the 480gr solid and 450gr NonCon before leaving for Africa in September. Really uncanny groups. They convinced me and I am now a big fan of the CEB, although my Elephant didn't like them one little bit!

I plan on 450gr CEB #13 solids and 420gr. NonCons in my new .458B&M by SSK.

Another thing that surprised me about the bullets was how well they feed. Having used Barnes banded solids and North Forks before I was expecting to experience feeding issues given the large flat meplat. Not so. They feed just like a round nose solid. Couple that with penetration like a flat nose bullet, what's not to like?

Mike, did you get any for your doubles? I'm currently working up a load for my 9.3X74R with the Non-Cons. Plan to move to the 500NE next. They do seem to shoot well.

Still a little leery of any monometal in a double. I suspect I am being overly conservative particularly insofar as the modern doubles are concerned.

Cup and core bullets I think are worse than the CEBs pressure wise and don't forget they also push out due to force where a solid won't. There is minimal bearing surface and the brass they use is 2% lead so that may make them slicker. I'm no expert but I would use CEB solids because of less barrel wear.

Sorry Mike, I didn't realize you were a Non-Monometal guy!

What have you been shooting in your doubles? Woodleigh? or Hornady?

If Woodleigh, is there a retailer other than Midway that you know of. I'd like to try some but they are out of stock until mid Jan, 2012.

Mike

I am with Aaron, crap I can't do that kind of group off the sticks with a scope! Excellent shooting with a Dot!

Having shot now 1000s of these BBW#13s in various calibers the tight groups, the ES between rounds, and the many other +s that go with them, such as the same POI at 50 with the Solid and NonCon do not surprise me. I have not been disappointed with any of them, nor have any of them failed to live up to my expectations, and have in fact exceeded all my expectations.

What is great about this is that this turns the 458 Winchester into a different animal altogether. These two bullets we see here are hammers, I know, I used them on hippo, buffalo, and that poor croc head this past June. That 420 NonCon inflicts tremendous trauma to target, more than I have ever seen, and I have shot a lot of animals with many various 458 caliber bullets over the years. The solid does exactly what it is supposed to do. I shot that last hippo through the heart, it burned completely through the hippo like he was butter, and busted the heart good, visible trauma, wish I had photos of that! Damn!

I looked up my last data entered on 458 Winchester, June 19, 2006, and that was not data, that was doing some terminals with various bullets, using older load data. My last entry on actually doing any load data was January of 2005. So my 458 Winchester Data is, well, "Dated" to say the least.

Sometime after Thanksgiving, if I don't forget, I want to load some of the RL 7 with these and give them a try in my 458 Winchesters too. Most of you know I have been so tied up since 2006 doing B&M data and shooting those, everything else has fell to the wayside!

Good report Mike, thanks! Those with 458 Winchesters need to take a look at the 450/420 BBW#13s! Perfect bullets for the Winchesters capacity, as the same with the 458 B&M, these bullets turn these into serious medicine for the biggest of critters!

Michael

quote:

What is great about this is that this turns the 458 Winchester into a different animal altogether

This makes me want to look in the mirror, slap my forehead and way "well DAH IBT, why didn't that occcur to you a long time ago?"

The CEB #13 is the perfect "cure" for the 458 Winchester limited powder capacity issue. With the CEB #13, there no longer is any issue!

I suggest Winchester start loading the CEB #13s, solids and noncons NOW in their commercial ammunition offerings.

Like most monometal bullets the CEB bullets are long. That said, with 64 grains of RL7 there was very little compression (if any) required to seat the bullet. I seated the bullets all the way to just below the last band and then crimped (with the last band being just above the crimp). I would like to see some pressure test data with this load. The rounds extracted absolutely effortlessly, although the primers looked a tad flatter than I would like. Temperatures were in the low 80's. Although at 2300+ fps I could certainly back off a grain or two and be just fine velocity wise.

Mike

My curiosity got the best of me today. I dragged a Win M70 458 Winchester out of the pile, one that I had used to do some pressures years ago. Low and behold, it still had a strain gage attached. I know that gage has been on there 5-6 years, very long time, and these things do in fact deteriorate over time, normally 2 yrs is about max and that might be stretching it. I took it and the computer out regardless, plugged it in, and it hooked right up with the computer? So I thought I would give it a go.........

First loaded one of my old standbys 400 Swift with 70/RL 7. That checked out normal at 2390 fps and 59511 PSI. Last time I ran this gun with that load was 2/2006, it ran 2364 fps and 57598 PSI. This seems to be right in line, a little increase in velocity matched by an increase in PSI, so I felt pretty good about the gage being right, at that point.

Then I ran 450 BBW#13 Solid with the 64/RL7. I came up short on velocity, 2184 fps and pressure at 54654 PSI. Followed by the 420 BBW#13 NonCon, with the same 64/RL 7 for 2220 fps and 52246 PSI. I think pressures are correct, to this point, and no doubt about the velocity. Why my velocity is so much lower??? Could be a 100 things, my barrel may not be as good as Mikes, it's a standard 458 barrel straight from Winchester back before closing the doors at New Haven, so there is no telling what the deal is with it. It could be a little looser than Mikes barrel, I have seen that many times before.

Mike, I do think you might be running a little hot however, while this does not show it in mine, if you are busting 2300 fps I think you are running more pressure. Not sure of it, can't prove it, just one of those gut feelings. At any rate, it won't hurt you any to drop a grain or so I don't think. Me??? I would drop velocity on the 450 BBW#13 to around 2250--2275 fps, run the NonCon with the same load, it will probably be a touch over 2300 fps. These make a good combo, and I think that will be less pressure in your gun as well. Just my thoughts is all. Don't make it so.

Then I got real curious, just opened up the Barnes book and looked up 458 Win and 450 Barnes Banded. Yep, went down the list, straight to the highest loads of course, you know me, and gave it a try. 450 BBW#13 Solid 78/TAC 2311 fps, 74/X-Terminator 2334 fps, 79/RL 15 2297 fps and 61/H-4198 2180 fps. Notice I did not mention pressures here? Why? They were all over the board at this point. No consistent pressure traces, VERY HIGH readings going into 75000 PSI averages, some into 80000 PSI. I think the strain gage being 5 yrs old gave up the ghost right after I did the RL7 loads, and is not reliable anymore at all. None of the loads I shot gave any issues with sticky bolts, cases, primers nothing, no indications of pressure issues, and damn sure not 75000 or 80000 PSI, so the gage has deteriorated and is not reliable.

Was it reliable on the 64/RL 7 loads? Can't say for sure, but I would say that the Pressures matched the Velocity given for those, in my gun. So it might be close, but with a gage that was on it's way out, one really can't say, I would not trust it.

Not this week, but next week, I think I will remove the old gage, and place a new one on and see what we can come up with at that point with 458 Winchester. I might should even try a different rifle, will put some thought into that as well.

Anyway, not really much conclusive data on that, sorry!

Michael

I will try and remember to post a picture of the primers tonight, both fired and unfired. I know that pressure signs show in a variety of ways, but the bolt lift and extraction were identical to shooting factory Norma 500 grain solids that run under 2100 fps -- completely smooth and effortless. Another thing I noticed that surprised me, the barrel did not seem to get as hot as it normally does after you shoot three or four rounds in fairly rapid succession. Not sure what was up with that.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I will try and remember to post a picture of the primers tonight, both fired and unfired. I know that pressure signs show in a variety of ways, but the bolt lift and extraction were identical to shooting factory Norma 500 grain solids that run under 2100 fps -- completely smooth and effortless. Another thing I noticed that surprised me, the barrel did not seem to get as hot as it normally does after you shoot three or four rounds in fairly rapid succession. Not sure what was up with that.

Mike

Yes, it's really hard to tell sometimes from primers alone, I have some rifles that really crater primers, you would think you were going to blow any second, even down in 40000 PSI, so it's hard to tell.

I tell you what to do. Measure the diameter of the belt on the case, before firing, and then after firing. But first do a load that you have been shooting and you know it is under pressure, maybe a factory load of some sort if you have them handy. It most likely will not increase more than .001 on the belt. If the 64/RL7 load increases more than .0015 we might want to think about dropping the charge a bit, if not, and all other indicators are good to go, hammer down.

With no heavy bolt lift, very important indicator of course, I don't think you have much of an issue really. If you do, hell you got plenty of room to back down and still have plenty of punch.

Michael

About 4 or 5 years ago I did some load deveplopment and chrono work with the 458wm and warned people here to stay away from reloader 7 because of the very high pressures it created.When cases would not hold a primer for another firing there is a pressure issue.You need AA2230 for this cartridge.

I have some unfired rounds that I loaded too. I will measure the belts on the fired and unfired rounds to see how they compare. That will be a start.

I wonder how much bullet barrel friction plays into the heating of the barrel.
With the minimal bearing surface and less sticky brass that could help prevent barrel heating and keep groups smaller perhaps.
Could run a test using the same propellent load with foam to top it, with CEBs, with cup and cores and with other solids. Do temp readings after five shots from a cool barrel before and after and see if there is a negligeable difference.

There could be nothing to the barrel temp observation, but it sure seemed like it was cooler after three or four shots than is typical. And yesterday was not a typically cool day either. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

Measurements are the same on both fired and unfired cartridges. On the belt both measure .5305 just ahead of the belt both measure .5130. Here are the primer pictures. More I study them the less concerned I am.

Mike, I don't see anything wrong with the primers. Especially with your measurements just in front of the belt, I think you are probably OK with pressure.

Michael, I'm really excited to see the results of the TSX. Hopefully you'll have good news!

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Todd

Mike

I don't see any issues with pressure, zero, none, notta--Hammer down you are good to go. And double that on the measurements, ahead of the belt. I would not worry about anything either!

Todd, I will go to work on our barrel strain test next week. So far everything looks good. Should not have any issues.


Michael

458 Winchester is in the same class as my own 458 B&M, concerning case capacity only. How does one enhance a limited capacity cartridge? By proper choice of bullet for the job at hand.

The 450 BBW#13 Solid is designed for this specific purpose. It drops 50 grs off the "OLD" standby of 500 grs for .458, it's nose profile, and proper meplat size of 67% allow it to drive extremely deep, straight, and hit hard up front. By weight it can get velocity up in the 458 Winchester to excellent DG Velocities. A BBW#13 likes velocity. While it is excellent at very low velocity, it is not at a loss when velocity goes up, more velocity, it hits harder up front, and drives deeper as well. So velocity does not hurt it. It will out perform most 500s on the market in these areas. I ran this bullet at just over 2200 fps in one of my 18 inch 458 B&Ms in June for 3 buffalo, and a hippo. None were recovered, all passed through from various angles. I don't recall shooting anything up the rear side, most angled and broadside shots. It does what it is supposed to do........

Many would think it's matching 420 NonCon is light for caliber! It would be if it were conventional, but being a NonCon it's a different animal. Again this past June it was my #1 first shot on 3 buffalo and a croc. Most have seen this before. The only bullet I recovered from a buffalo was a frontal shot that hit the heart, passed through everything else, and was found finally after much digging, on the other side of the stomach! The blades and bullet did tremendous damage to the heart, and other vitals afterwards, blades found throughout the goo that came out. No conventional bullet would have penetrated as far as this, it would have been found in the stomach. All broadside shots passed completely through buffalo doing tremendous damage. No buffalo went further than 20-25 yds before going down for the count.

The frontal shot on the one buffalo heart



Yes we, including me, kept digging through this mess several times before actually finding the bullet on the other side!




Broadside shot on this hippo went completely through with the 450 BBW#13 Solid, along with the following neck shot too.




This was a 12 ft croc, to the inch! Not a big one, but the biggest one in the pile that was there. As he jumped up to grab a piece of elephant leg I banged him in the top of the head at 30 yards. As you can see he did not run or leave the area. HEH..... We had a hard time doing photos, it was difficult to get the top part of the head to keep from falling off, the top jaw in front of the head was very nearly completely severed. I have no idea how my taxidermist is going to fix this? All from 1 420 BBW#13 NonCon, 2250 fps from the 18 inch 458 B&M. Not much of anything left inside this mess!




How do you enhance a cartridge? By the bullet! The bullet does all the work in the end! I would say that these 458 caliber, 450 BBW#13 Solids and it's matching 420 NonCon is well up to the task you ask of them!

Mike, you have a winner, especially with the velocity and accuracy you are getting, keep that particular keg of RL 7, I think you have injected it with steroids!!!!!!!

Michael

quote:

How do you enhance a cartridge? By the bullet!

I wonder how many other "problem" cartridges are out there awaiting the #13 cure?

By-the-by, how's the 9.3 mm coming along?

IBT