I’m toying with the idea of a 400 Whelen (or two). A pretty standard pre-war Oberndorf or G&H style Mauser or Model 70 or ‘03 with a 25” or 26” barrel would be my first choice. However, a bolt action or 1895 Lever Action loosely patterned after this Turnbull 86 sounds cool:

https://www.turnbullrestoratio...86-turnbull-thumper/

Sometimes what we envision ends up not being nearly as cool, or perhaps useful or practical, as we originally imagine. The 16” barreled Turnbull 1886 50-110 in the link above is intended for use with 50 Alaskan brass and 650 grain cast bullets traveling at a low enough velocity to have a 30-06 level of recoil. I’m thinking that a receiver sight would be in order, and the ultra heavyweight cast bullet option would be interesting. A 16” barrel sounds cool, but I wonder how manageable and practical would it really be. I often hunt elk in some very thick pines, and this seems to have some merit. What say you?

Hi Matt,
A variety of conversions have been discussed here recntly and it often comes down to what rifle you have to use as a donor for conversion.
We pretty well talked to death the idea of converting a 1895 .405 WCF and that thread is in Bigbores or down in Lever actions.

I shoot 300 and 400 grain bullets in my 1895 .405 and have taken a lot of tough game with 300 grain premium bullets. Also have taken a Cape Buffalo in Africa with 400 grain Woodleigh bullets at 2076 fps. For me there is no value to converting to 400 Wheelen as my 1895 already performs at that level. You may to poke around in these forums to read those threads.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Hi Matt,
A variety of conversions have been discussed here recntly and it often comes down to what rifle you have to use as a donor for conversion.
We pretty well talked to death the idea of converting a 1895 .405 WCF and that thread is in Bigbores or down in Lever actions.

I shoot 300 and 400 grain bullets in my 1895 .405 and have taken a lot of tough game with 300 grain premium bullets. Also have taken a Cape Buffalo in Africa with 400 grain Woodleigh bullets at 2076 fps. For me there is no value to converting to 400 Wheelen as my 1895 already performs at that level. You may to poke around in these forums to read those threads.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, a 405 loaded to max is insignificantly different than a 400 Whelen. Good point. A “Thumper” in 405 on an 1895 action would be equally cool, as Well.

My impression has been for some time that the .35 Whelen and the .400 Whelen were originally developed as bolt action versions of the .35 Winchester and .405 Winchester, so it's no accident that their capabilities are relatively the same.

Anyone have an opinion on the short barrel “Thumper” idea?

All very doable on everything you want; no engineering challenges, but a 650 grain bullet is not necessary and would make a 50-110 too long to feed, maybe. When you are at 50 cal, 570 grain is a big bullet. 650 is in the realm of BMG bullets. I have the reamers.
Most any rifle works for a 400 or 35; they are very forgiving.
50-110 I have only made single shots; I did one rolling block specifically to shoot 50 BMG tracers from; lots of fun.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
All very doable on everything you want; no engineering challenges, but a 650 grain bullet is not necessary and would make a 50-110 too long to feed, maybe. When you are at 50 cal, 570 grain is a big bullet. 650 is in the realm of BMG bullets. I have the reamers.
Most any rifle works for a 400 or 35; they are very forgiving.
50-110 I have only made single shots; I did one rolling block specifically to shoot 50 BMG tracers from; lots of fun.

Sorry folks, I am a poor communicator. The Turnbull rifle in the link is chambered in 50-110 and Turnbull used 50 Alaskan (2.1” case) loaded with a 650 grain cast bullet traveling at like 1100 FPS, maybe less, with 30-06 level recoil. I have a Handloader Magazine with an article about that particular rifle somewhere. I was not asking about an 1886, but about a bolt gun or 1895 Lever in the “Turnbull Thumper” template, in 400 Whelen (an 1895 could be in 405 win) built with a 16” and shooting heavy as possible cast bullets at low velocity.

It’s nice to know that you work on 1886/71’s a friend is looking for someone to rebarrel to 450 Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My impression has been for some time that the .35 Whelen and the .400 Whelen were originally developed as bolt action versions of the .35 Winchester and .405 Winchester, so it's no accident that their capabilities are relatively the same.

My impression was that they came about because of the cost of a 375 and then things changed when the M70 came out chambered in 375.

As a side note I wonder if the 375 would be what it is if Winchester had not chambered it in the M70.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Anyone have an opinion on the short barrel “Thumper” idea?

I for one don't care much for the short barrel and in my mind any lever action rifle needs at least a 20 inch barrel to look and handle right. This is from someone who owns a Marlin 1895 guide gun with an eighteen inch barrel.

Shorter rifles will loose a lot of velocity if that matters to you. Also the balance would be quite far back. But if you like it go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Anyone have an opinion on the short barrel “Thumper” idea?

I for one don't care much for the short barrel and in my mind any lever action rifle needs at least a 20 inch barrel to look and handle right. This is from someone who owns a Marlin 1895 guide gun with an eighteen inch barrel.

Shorter rifles will loose a lot of velocity if that matters to you. Also the balance would be quite far back. But if you like it go for it.

Thanks for your reply! 16” is VERY short. The ultra-heavy bullet at low velocity is part of this particular package, though, so velocity loss due to the short barrel is a good thing in this case.

I would not consider a .400 Whelen Thumper with a 16" barrel. I don't want to give up the velocity nor gain the blast that going to 16 would cause. I also think the 16 would be butt heavy. Balance is what makes a gun quick and handy. 20" would probably be my "short" preference.
However I think a 400 Whelen Thumper is a great idea!

I initially thought I was on the "no short barrel" bandwagon, but then I thought I really like my Guide Gun, both how it looks and how it handles. And I saw a Winchester model 71 converted to one of the .458-.348 Winchester wildcats that looked great at 20". I think the trick to the right proportions might be the full length magazine tube (for both visual and weight balance). And you don't get that with the box magazine. Maybe make it a Mannlicher stock?

The Ruger #1 in 405 Win will give you the best rifle length to barrel length ratio. The 24” does not look long at all on the #1. If you change the throat on the 405 #1 You can get more boom! I think it can be rechambered for 400 Whelen without too much fuss

Tell if this logic is wrong: The Turnbull 50 Express 1886 Thumper shoots a 650 grain cast lead .510” diameter bullet at something like 1100 FPS. The 400 Whelen shoots a .410” diameter bullet, which happens to be about 80% of the diameter of the .510” 50 cal. So, a .410” bullet at 80% of the weight of the 650 grains comes out to 520 grains. Is that the right way to figure out a comparable bullet weight in 40 cal? That is super heavy for sure!

Colorado Matt, I think you want to compare it by the square of the diameter, rather than directly by diameter. Look for a similar sectional density.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
Colorado Matt, I think you want to compare it by the square of the diameter, rather than directly by diameter. Look for a similar sectional density.

Ok, thanks. I’ll look into that.

Matt,

I think you're looking at a 420 grain .410 bullet to have the same sectional density as a 650 grain .510 bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
Matt,

I think you're looking at a 420 grain .410 bullet to have the same sectional density as a 650 grain .510 bullet.

Thanks!

Go, Matt, go!

A Ruger #1 with a long throat will match the 450-400-3"!! and a couple of old posters had a gunsmith do this conversion with Win. 95 and they hauled off to Africa and shot Cape Buffalo with them and they worked well and all but cloned the ballistics of the fabled 450-400-3". Judge G was one and I don't remember the other one..

With my 400 G&H Whelen reamer you can easily use 450-400, 400 grain bullets with no issues. They are not even as long as a 30-06 and give 450-400 NE ballistics. Much more pressure is how that works.
You can't use a 500 grain, 40 caliber bullet; as SK said; it don't work that way; not a linear interpolation.
As for that 650 grain, 50-110 in an 86, he must be using half of the case for the bullet; I shoot 700 grain 50 BMG bullets in mine and had to lengthen the throat to do it. In a single shot.
And No, no one is beating dead horses; we are discussing stuff, again. Nothing wrong with that. Most AR members can't remember what was discussed last week anyway; I know I don't. It's all new to me.

I like 20" barrels for "most" anything that will be under 22".
I have 375 & 416 Ruger bolt rifles, 45-70 lever actions with 20" barrels, and 375 H&H's in 20-21".
I will admit to handling some rifles with 16" barrels that I thought were pretty handy feeling. My inclination would be to start at 20".

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I’m toying with the idea of a 400 Whelen (or two). A pretty standard pre-war Oberndorf or G&H style Mauser or Model 70 or ‘03 with a 25” or 26” barrel would be my first choice. However, a bolt action or 1895 Lever Action loosely patterned after this Turnbull 86 sounds cool:

https://www.turnbullrestoratio...86-turnbull-thumper/

Sometimes what we envision ends up not being nearly as cool, or perhaps useful or practical, as we originally imagine. The 16” barreled Turnbull 1886 50-110 in the link above is intended for use with 50 Alaskan brass and 650 grain cast bullets traveling at a low enough velocity to have a 30-06 level of recoil. I’m thinking that a receiver sight would be in order, and the ultra heavyweight cast bullet option would be interesting. A 16” barrel sounds cool, but I wonder how manageable and practical would it really be. I often hunt elk in some very thick pines, and this seems to have some merit. What say you?

I find that long or short barrels is largely a matter of what is happening in one's mind and far less important in the field. Unless maybe you are on a horse, which I quit riding when they invented cars.
I admit that I don't hunt in jungle thick brush much. But when I did, I didn't need to swing barrels around it. I never shoot at running game.

DPCD - would a 45/100 case with the rim turned down to the size of the rim of a 405 Win, feed and work in a Win 1895?

That would certainly be thumper in a Win 1895 if it could be made to work.

Not sure; I will check it out. I might have put the mag box width on this thread; forgot. I sort of remember measuring one recently though. I'm thinking it is too fat.

The inside width of a 95 mag box is .486; the 450s base diameter is about .499. You can't make the mag box any wider as the lever struts on both sides of it prevent that.
Although it is so close and the box walls are fairly thick you could make a new box out of thinner steel; lot of work. And a weaker box..... I even tried to stuff a 450 Bushmaster in it; no go too. But close.

Thanks for the prompt response.

I thought it might go really close to fitting.

It would be a practical thumper, with all the 458 jacketed and cast bullets available, including pointed designs.

It sounds almost like a compact .45-70 loaded up over 2000 fps with a 450 grain Kodiak bullet.

We got 2150 with the 450 grain Kodiak from my 45-90.
Surely a .45-70 can reach 2000 fps. Or it can be loaded down as slow as desired.

KISS !

The 450-100 is a 2.6 inch case, so it would be/have been, a longer 45-70.
More thump.

CRS - it would be more powerful than the 45/90 loads you use in your 1886.

As dpcd mentioned, it’s the 2.6” version with an OAL of 3.175”. In a strong action there is ample scope to boost performance. Single stack magazine with no feed issues.

There’s lots of performance upside if the mag issue could be resolved satisfactorily.

dpcd and jfe,
This thread has been going for so long that I decided to provide a "thumper" solution that is available off-the shelf that will determine if this was ever a serious quest.

My conclusion -- nope, just academic!

Of course, like all AR discussions; it was never a serious idea; just guys who obviously have nothing better to do, (I do, actually) expounding over gnat's asses.
Whilst the 45-70 is, indeed, a good thumper, it won't fit into a 95 Win, which I thought was the original point; but probably isn't because I don't even know what the original premise was.
Not that it matters.

Yep, and I already showed that an 1895 .405 WCF 400 grain load already gives adequate performance to kill buff and ele. Soooo ? Whales?

I agree the 400 will kill anything; some guys just like the bigger numbers. I like the 40 calibers.

Just got some new Quality Cart. 400 Whelen brass. The neck measures .439 over a Barnes TSX. These may be a little fat for some chambers. FYI

Ammo made from 30-06 cases measures .434. I'll have to check my G&H spec reamer.

I see a lot of extremes, a 16 inch barrel serves no purpose, nor does a 27 or 28 inch these are extremes...With a 40 caliber a 20 is doable as is a 24 or 26...and they handle as well as a any other barrel length..but maybe not the desired toy....You always pay the piper with a barrel less than 20 inches has been my experience..My lovely Ruger INt. 308 was a bloody 300 Savage if that with most all loads, so I moved it on..My Ruger #1 with a 24 inch barrel in 250-3000 overall as short as can be and I get top plus velocity with it.

My opine is 20 to 24 is usable, otherwise were playing games just to have something different and overlooking whats real. but yes you can kill anything with a 416 Rem with a 10 inch barrel under the right circumstances..but why?

Matt,

Buddy I'd been thinking about the exact same thing for a few months! Funny how often we are thinking the Dane thing without ever talking about it.

My thought came from the fact that I have a bit of an ocd need to own at least 2 of every caliber I reload (not chamber, caliber, they can be different cases) as to overlap my bullet/powder combos. Say a Hornady 139 SST shoots horribly in my 275, maybe its the bees knees in my 284.

I also lack a big heavy brush gun. So, that lead me to REALLY consider a 18-21" bbl 400 Whelen. I have spare M70's and a 1903 with a peep (no d&t for scope) that would make PERFECT candidates.

My thinking, is that this is NOT an African DG rifle. I don't bed to worry about sending a 400 at 2050+ to reliably knock a buff down. This is a black timber bear/elk/moose (maybe musk ox) North American big bore like the 45/70 but in a bolt action.

It was between this and dpcd's 400 Jeff on my spare M70 375.

I say build it, I'll build mine. Dueling banjos. Maybe we could go in on a 420-460 gr cast mould?

Go for it. You are only living once these days.