Just for intrest below are the shooting results for the Zimbabwe PH shooting exams for this year, by the rifles used.


Used by those who passed

CZ 375 6
CZ .458 Lott 1
Ruger No1 .375 1 (just for Will )
Winchester Pre 64 M70 in .375 1
Winchester p/F M70 .458W 1
Mauser .458W 1
Interarms X .458 1

The failures used

CZ .375 5
CZ .458 4
Interarms X .458 3
Mauser .458 1
C&H .375 1
Ruger M77.416 2
Shultz & Larson .458 1

The weapon failures were as follows.
1 CZ .375 cracked stock in half on speed shoot.
1 C&H - wouldn't feed - an abomination before the Lord!
2 Rugers in .416 Rigby failed to eject on speed shoot and run down costing their users.
1 Shultz& larson- magazine trouble. Have only once before seen a DGR by this maker and it work well. This one had a problem and because the action is enclosed with only a small ejection port it is almost impossible to clear a jamb. Nice rifle - when it works.

Considering how few passed this stage of the exam it is going to be an easy proficiency!

Interesting

Sounds like the previously reported problems with Ruger actions during fast reloading have substance to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

2 Rugers in .416 Rigby failed to eject on speed shoot and run down costing their users.

Ruger owners beware.

Ganyana -- many thanks for the interesting report.

Gentlemen,

There are too many variables in shooter skill, weapon condition and maintenance for anyone to look at this "PH Exam" pass/fail list and make any hard conclusion such as "the Ruger has an inherent problem w/ a slow springed ejector" or "Winchester rifles are rarely chosen because they are poor in design".

I just inspected a post-64 M70 Supergrade, Ruger RSM, Ruger M77mkII and CZ 550 Safari from my safe. All of them have a thin metal spring loaded ejector. all have approx. the same gaps and spaces to allow debris to enter which can stick or slow the ejector. All can corrode which can stick or slow the ejector. All could be maintained improperly w/ a heavy grease or a solvent and/or oil that gums over time which can stick or slow the ejector.

Only the original JP Sauer & Sohn Mauser in my safe is inherently void of this issue, because it has a fixed heavy metal ejector.

Gary

It is impossible for anyone to extract a round from the chamber full to the rear faster than the ejector can spring up on any of the above rifles I own, unless I allow them to fall into one of the conditions above.

Ganyana,

Can you tell me more about how the "speed shoot and run down" portion of the test is conducted? I'd like to 'test' my own Ruger (and model 70) to see if I can duplicate the failure.

Thanks!

-Steve

Ganyana,

How about putting the results together for the last 10 shooting tests to increase sample size and see if there are definite trends in rifle failure rates?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:
Ganyana,

Can you tell me more about how the "speed shoot and run down" portion of the test is conducted? I'd like to 'test' my own Ruger (and model 70) to see if I can duplicate the failure.

Thanks!

-Steve

Originally posted by Ganyana:

2) Speed- Max three rounds in the rifle- 3 targets at 10,15,20 m. One shot on each furthest to nearest, reload and one shot on each again closest to furthest.
target points /time x 45 = point score
Need a full house score in 24 seconds to break even. Targets score 5,3,1 with a 9,3 or .375 and 5,4,2 with a .416 or larger.

Two best scores on this shoot were bob WC with a .470 ( full house in 12 seconds for 112,5 score) And Spike Claarsens 28 points in 11,01 seconds for 114,4 score)

3) Run down- 40m run and 4 targets at 10,15,20,25m.
Target points/time x 35= score

need full house in 20 s to break even

What target is being used? What size is it? etc.

Hog Killer

Check the link to the post. They use the IPSC target with major-minor scoring.

465h&H

Ganyana,

Am I right in concluding that there were only 5 rifles that malfunctioned out of 17 failing and 12 passing candidates?

If so, that ain't too bad at all.

Thanks Charles!

-Steve

Sorry guys, this should read
"passed"
"Failed"
"operator errors"
"broken gun"

Interesting that ALL the failures where in CRFs

I read this as
29 attempted the course
12 passed (any failures in that lot?)

ONE gun failed (broken stock)

4 men did not do their home work before coming and should have tested their gear better. A trip to a DGR gunsmith should have fixed this.

That someone short shucked a ruger doesn't surprise me in the least... that it was done TWICE is pretty odd.

Rugers tend to chunk brass over the field

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Rugers tend to chunk brass over the field

jeffe

Work the bolt really fast and some of them don't chunk brass anywhere.

As for DGR gunsmiths, we are talking about Zimbabwe. There are some decent gunsmiths in RSA, but the boys taking the PH exam get about US$150 per month, and can barely afford the rifle, never mind a trip to RSA to get the rifle worked on.

Personally I am embarassed that am American company (Ruger) produces a product that not only interferes with these PH candidates ability to earn a living, but also potentially with someone's ability to stay alive in a dangerous situation.

500grains,

I don't disagree. But this was a fairly international, although generally fairly common, bunch of rifles.

Assuming that there were in fact 29 of them, and that they were truly "run of the mill" in terms of their nature and quality, I think it's pretty remarkable that only 5 failed.

If you just walked into a sporting goods store here in the US with a good selection of bolt rifles, grabbed 29 run of the mill examples (say, Winnies, Rems, CZs, Rugers, Weatherbys, etc.) off the rack and put them to a test as rigorous as this one, I wonder what the failure rate would be? More than 5, I'd bet.

Of course, as consumers we ought to get better. My point is just that given the sorry state of quality control in modern-day factory rifles, I would have expected much worse.

Aside from the Rugers , it looks like the CZs and the Mausers also had a couple of problems .

Really , the sampling is just too small to draw any firm sort of conclutions , but it is interesting the only push feed M-70 apparently had no problems ......Mike 378 is probably chuckling in his beer at this point ........(grin)

sdgunslinger

I have owned a pile of M70 375s from anout 1972 vintage through to those made in the last couple of years.

The CRFs have been the problem guns but I think there are a couple of reasons for this. The first is the general drop in quality and whether CRF fans like it or not the facts are that a CRF needs to be better to work. The other problem with them was a few years back when they made a compromise magazine box to cater for the 375 and 416 Rem when loaded with round nose bullets. You can pick these rifles as the magazine box is narrowed by a type or crimping.

Since the early 1970s I think the best 375s for reliability are the XTRs from the 1970s. The worse are more recent CRFs. The most accurate are the Stainless models and that is because Winchester has not fucked up the barrel with the way they attach the recoil lug. Some of the least accurate 375s came in the 80s when they called them the Super Express and they had the barrel band.

Personally I think the best 375 and especially 458 or 458 Lott if reliability is the big issue is the HS Precision with in line feed. The Rem 700 fitted with an HS Precision magazine would be good as would I think the Rem 700 ABG rifles would be. Although that rivoted in extractor can cause one to break out in hives.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Work the bolt really fast and some of them don't chunk brass anywhere.

As for DGR gunsmiths, we are talking about Zimbabwe. There are some decent gunsmiths in RSA, but the boys taking the PH exam get about US$150 per month, and can barely afford the rifle, never mind a trip to RSA to get the rifle worked on.

Personally I am embarassed that am American company (Ruger) produces a product that not only interferes with these PH candidates ability to earn a living, but also potentially with someone's ability to stay alive in a dangerous situation.

So, given the limited finances involved, what factory rifle do you recommend for an aspiring PH??

FWIW, I've never had a single problem with my Rugers. I've had issues with a factory Mod 70, and you read about the safety problem I recently had with a Mod 700.

We've recently read lots of complaints about the factory CZ's, and over the last few years we've heard lots of similar stories about the quality control on factory Mod 70's. Everyone here seems to figure that Browning is pot metal junk, and I don't even want to mention Mod 700's in a discussion about big bore DGR's. Are you equally embarrassed about the junk being cranked out by other American manufacturers?

So, I am really curious....what reasonably affordable big bore rifle is better than the Ruger RSM, out of the box????

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
If you just walked into a sporting goods store here in the US with a good selection of bolt rifles, grabbed 29 run of the mill examples (say, Winnies, Rems, CZs, Rugers, Weatherbys, etc.) off the rack and put them to a test as rigorous as this one, I wonder what the failure rate would be? More than 5, I'd bet.

I agree with that.

Originally posted by mrlexma:

If you just walked into a sporting goods store here in the US with a good selection of bolt rifles, grabbed 29 run of the mill examples (say, Winnies, Rems, CZs, Rugers, Weatherbys, etc.) off the rack and put them to a test as rigorous as this one, I wonder what the failure rate would be? More than 5, I'd bet.

I reckon the two rifles which would do the best are the two that are most dispised on this forum, the Rem 700 and Wby.

On big bore I would back the Rem 700 ABG and the Wby on both feeding (assuming 378, 416 or 460 in the Wby) and stock splitting. If the test was with very blunt or flat nose bullets I would doubly back the Rem ABG and Wby.

Mike

Canuck,

Reasonably priced DG rifle that will PROBABLY work? Whitworth or Interarms. Oops - they aren't made any more. And they have a slide safety that is a problem, so scratch that. How about Sako - they usually work. Oops - not CRF, so forget Sako.

In reality, production-style DG rifles that are reliable start at $5K, and the bulk of them are in the $10K and up range. (And NO, Dakotas are not always reliable. I would not buy one.)

But for that kind of money a guy can get an entry level double. Therefore I recommend that all PHs buy a double.

What puzzles me is some PHs spending $50K for a Land Cruiser, and then walking around with a $650 rifle that is a fuckup.

(Mike, I am ignoring your tastless mentioning of Remington and Weatherby in my presence. )

quote:

What puzzles me is some PHs spending $50K for a Land Cruiser, and then walking around with a $650 rifle that is a fuckup.

500,

I think I know the reason for that type of thing happening. It is not so much an absolute dollar issue but rather where the rifle (or any other purchase) fits on the ladder.

For example the Landruiser at $50,000 when compared to other vehicles is much lower on the ladder than say an Echols, Ryan Breeding etc.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

In reality, production-style DG rifles that are reliable start at $5K, and the bulk of them are in the $10K and up range. (And NO, Dakotas are not always reliable. I would not buy one.)

But for that kind of money a guy can get an entry level double. Therefore I recommend that all PHs buy a double.

So, for the financially-challenged, aspiring PH, you recommend a $10K double rifle. Makes sense. (Really. I was only being a little sarcastic. )

BUT you condemned the Ruger based on the fact that a trip to the gunsmith was out of their price range.

While I agree with a good chunk of your logic (wrt the best, most infalliable choice of firearm for a professional, and the relative cost of same compared to their safari vehicle, etc), I tend to think that buying a $1500 Ruger RSM and sinking a few hundred bucks into at the gunsmith would be a pretty reasonable compromise, at least until you became famous like MS and could afford a 600 Nitro double. A $1000 Win Mod 70 and a trip to the same gunsmith wouldn't be all that bad either.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

You asked what worked out of the box, not what could be fixed by a good gunsmith. So tell me, what affordable dangerous game rifles will work perfectly right out of the box.

500grains,

I agreed with you 100% on that one. I don't think there is one that will work perfectly right out of the box every time....which is why I thought you were being a little harsh in singling out the Rugers.

To put it another way, all out of the box brands require a good working over before they should be used by a professional in the practice of protecting clients from harm.

quote:

To put it another way, all out of the box brands require a good working over before they should be used by a professional in the practice of protecting clients from harm.

Wby in 378, 416 and 460 will work out of the box. Ditto for HS Precision in any calibre.

Wby in 375 H&H, 375 Wby and 458 Lott is staggered feed.

Mike378- the one rifle that everybody agrees is a disaster is the Rem 700. In the last two weeks I have seen a .375 have the bolt handel fall off (a young south African PH up in zim to get DG experience) and a .30-06 had the extractor break. Since 1996 (when I started examining on outr proficiency exams) We have had two close calls with candidates and elephants. Both occasioned by 1) poor first shot, 2- Rem 700 (in .416) breaking the extractor. They are abortions.

The newer weatherby's are nice rifles. Several top PH's carry them in .460. But most down load the round slightly. I personally like at least 4 rounds in the rifle and preferably 5. On a bull ele hunt or a buff I have never needed more than 1, but on cow ele's and lion, or in off chance encounters with lion, I have been very grateful for a high capacity rifle.

I am collecting all the craps of paper for all the exams since April '96 (407 candidates), but it is quite a job anylysing it all (especially as most of it is written in my own fair hand - and I am very dyslexic and letters and figures are back to front or upside down)

The Rugers M77 Mk 1 were an abomination. Parks bought 250 new and had over 200 of them destroyed to prevent some poor sucker getting killed using them. The MkII's work grate - except in .416 Rigby.

The failures on this exam were not short stroking the rifles, it was cases failing to eject and causing a jam. Very common when the bolt is worked hard and fast. In practice they always seem fine, Put a timer behind somebody and their promotion on the line and they speed up... and the rifles jam.

None of the rifles were bought new buy their current owners in this last exam.

My vote on the best value for money -out of the box DGR- Winchester M70. They need work from new- stock bedding, sights etc, but I have not seeen one of the new ones yet, that needed metal work. ie- all the problems could be fixed by a hobbiest or an armorer posing as a gunsmith (lot of that about).

Ganyana

There is no question Rem 700 bolt handles come off.....The import agent for Australia has bolt handles in stock.

There is also no question as to extractors breaking.....it is the Magnum bolt face one that have the rivot. The 30/06 bolt face that does not have the rivot can have a situation with a tight case whereby the bolt rotates and the extractor is forced to rotate within the bolt face. Over the years Reminton has changed between...no rivot on the 30/06 bolt face and a rivot on the 30/06 bolt face.

But having said that I would take a Remington 700 African Big Game Rifle over any CRF staggered feed rifle. The reason is that the chances of the Rem 700 having the bolt handle fall off or the extractor break amounts to nothing compared to the CRF staggered feed jamming.

The failures on this exam were not short stroking the rifles, it was cases failing to eject and causing a jam.

That is quite common with CRFs...ask Winchester Australia. The problem is that with CRF there is a very fine line between the extractor being tight enough and not tight enough. Too tight and the case rim will not slip easily under the extractor. OR if the extractor groove is too big in diameter there are problems. I think the manufactures of CRF go for "too loose" which can mean pulling the bolt back leaves the case sitting on the follower.

In line or centre line feed Push Feed is the most reliable. In line or centre line feed CRF still needs the case rim to get under the extractor.

Mike

Mike

I think alot of the feeding reliability you are attributing to the big Weatherbys is not due to the straight line feed , but due to the bottleneck nature of those cartridges. Having a larger hole to hit is obviously going to make quite a difference if things are not lined up quite right .

I believe I would hunt up a push feed M-70 in .458 if I needed such a thing as a stopper. I have yet to see one of those actions that is not reliable .

A Whitworth may not be the answer either . While they are praised to the skies here , the example I have would not reliably eject when I recieved it . Yet it was supposedly carried by an Alaskan guide . I had to swap in an ejector from a military M-98 to get reliable ejection , and now it dings the case mouths considerbly , I don't beleive the loading port is quite long enough for the .375 cartridge .

I read this same post after last years tests with the same knocking of Ruger 416Rigbys. I tested my Ruger then and after running over 200 rounds thru it I could not get it to fail. After this years post I took the gun out of the safe and decided to try another test. This time I decided to try EMPTY cases since that was what theoretically being ejected from the test. After running 20 thru the gun again with no failures I fail completely to understand what could cause this problem except poor maintenance. Several years ago I gave a M70 Classic SS to a PH friend. Years later he asked me to show him how to disaasembe the bolt as he was going for his profiency exam and wanted to know how to clean it. I seriously question the maintenance procedures a lot of PH's use. In reference to the Mdl 700 the US Army uses them for their sniper rifles do they not and I can't think of a more critical or life threatning application than hunting men in adverse conditions. I have used Mdl 70's for over 50 years and currently have 3 in my guncase, A custom 30-06 1939, A stock 270 1948 transition safety and a 375 SS classic. I have NEVER experienced a feed problem with a Mdl 70. I am a school trained gunsmith but none of these guns have had ANY feed modifications. The follower on my Cz5550 416Rigby has had the follower modified like the new Winchesters for last round feeding. Of course that's just MY experience but one gets weary of hearing Rugers Mdl 70's and Rem 700's trashed everytime you log on.

I think alot of the feeding reliability you are attributing to the big Weatherbys is not due to the straight line feed , but due to the bottleneck nature of those cartridges. Having a larger hole to hit is obviously going to make quite a difference if things are not lined up quite right

Sdgunslinger,

That certainly helps!!! BUT an inline feed will work much better with calibres like 458 loaded with round noses. Also, remember that a 460 is not as good as a 416 Rigby in terms of the degree of bottle neck. But I will back a 460 loaded with 500 grain Hornadys to feed with more reliability than a 416 Rigby with 400 grain Hornadys from either a Ruger or CZ.

Wbys also feed very reliably off the staggered feed and they do so for the same reason an SMLE is super reliable....all controlled by the magazine box.

I believe I would hunt up a push feed M-70 in .458 if I needed such a thing as a stopper. I have yet to see one of those actions that is not reliable

I have owned 3 of the 458 PF Super Grades. They were 1970s rifles as you would know. Very tough looking guns and I often think the Ryan Breeding rifles copied the butt shape of those M70s. They were extremely slick actions and cost about the same as Wby Deluxe.

Of the 3 that I had one would jam with the 500 grain Hornadys when the bolt was closed real quick. However, that particular rifle would feed the 400 grain Speer flat nose without trouble. I suspect that was a case of when and how the two bullets hit the feed ramp.

The HS Precision is better than the Wby because:

) In line feed in all calibres

2) Does not have the a bolt nose projecting beyond a row of lugs that are pressing the cartridge down. If you have very fast hands and a Weatherby with insufficient bias on the rear of the spring then you can have the bolt going forward too fast for the cartridge to rise and the first locking lug on the bottom row tries to feed the cartridge. Jam time. I have only seen it done with a rifle sitting on a rest. But that is not to say that someone could not do it from the should after they had fired a round. BUT bending the spring stops it. Actually the Weatherby action turns every calibre into a rebated rim.

But out of the box a 378 to 450 takes some beating. Recoil lug on barrel is only an inch up the barrel on the barrel reinforce.....no fucking up the barrel. The barrel lug and action lug are glass bedded and non exposed cross bolts front and rear. The tang is like a Rem 700 and sits on top of the wood. The M70 is almost the same with the tang but as you know it has the little square section projecting down to increase thread length.

Mike

quote:

Of course that's just MY experience but one gets weary of hearing Rugers Mdl 70's and Rem 700's trashed everytime you log on.

My impression of this site is that the Ruger in 375 and 416 and the Model 70s get the seal of approval. Rem 700s and Weatherbys are a different situation.

Mike

The most amazing fact is the passing of the ruger#1 in a test that places such a premium on speed!

1894: I saw that too. Wonder what the story is.

Gentlemen,

An event such as this should require that all participants have their weapons pass an LTI(limited technical inspection) prior to being used in the trials. Just for the sake of safety and potential lawsuits, this should be done. If those who sponsor this event neither have the skill nor the equipment to perform this task, they can easily compile a sheet/list on specifics to be checked including acceptable tolerances and leave the burden on the applicants to have their weapons checked by a competent gunsmith. Cost would be minimal.

If during the trial, lets say the applicant shooting his Ruger .416Rigby experiences a failure to eject malfunction:
It would be easy to inspect this weapon and determine if the cause is mechanical or user error. If it is mechanical and the ejector is the cause, it would be easy to determine why (such as it sticks or is slow, broken, etc.).

Personally, I'm not surprised to find burrs and sharp edges on machined surfaces of low cost production rifles. I can see this as a culprit, but this is something that is easily checked and corrected. What I suspect (based on the limited info) is:
- There is no validity in any claim that the Ruger suffers a design or material flaw w/ its ejector.
- Any failure to eject is caused by operator error in either:
a) failure to stroke bolt fully to the rear.
b) failure to maintain the weapon.
c) combination of above.

This is just my opinion, as I do not believe it is humanly possible to extract a spent 416Rigby case full to the rear at a speed greater than the time it takes for the ejector to spring into position unless it is in need of maintenance or repair.

Gary

Go Ruger MkII and never look back. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
The most amazing fact is the passing of the ruger#1 in a test that places such a premium on speed!

It's called, PRACTICE that guy learned his weapon and how to feed it. It can be done as this guy proved. Most poeple who do not practice with their bolt guns could not pass this test, as they drop their rifle down to their waist to work the bolt.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
1894: I saw that too. Wonder what the story is.

Probably holding extra rounds in between the fingers of the off hand and a cool efficiency with a dead solid, reliable rifle.

Mike378,

From what I've read, the failures on the Rugers have been that the ejector springs aren't stiff enough to get the ejector in place during a really fast stage. Common fix - upgrade the spring. Ruger should get with program, at least on their big bores. Too much rifle shooting in the U.S. is a leisurely affair - Pow, check the target, Pow, check the target, etc. The first stage above is Pow, Pow, Pow, reload, Pow, Pow Pow - all in 24 seconds.

Zimbabwe Gave the current Winchester M70 as my "best value for money vote" I knock the Ruger MkII's in .416 because every single year they fail. The ruger MkII's in .458, 375 work superbly - even when poorly maintained. You obviously got a good one- or perhaps Ruger shiped a bunch of duds to Africa? S&W did that twice that I know of. All the M66 revolvers imported late in the war had regular missfires even when the springs were fully tentioned. And the batch that arrived in '97- half had the barrels not centered on the frame, barrels over tightened (and front sight canted to the right) or virtually no rifeling (look like glock polyginal bores!)

Every Ruger that an appy has failed with has taken it away to a proper gunsmith and had it fixed- but it is not a job someone can do with a file at home.

378- inline feed or stagered is irrelevant. I have one 9,3 with detachible box mags on a mauser action and it is as reliable as my 9,3 Obendorf. You may be right that a good CF needs to be better finished, but I must say I like CF.

Not seen too many posts on the Browning A bolt. Seeing more of them here, all left handed.

One of the best push feed DGR out there is the BSA. I loath the muzzel brake but I haven't seen one that failed to cycle, no matter how dusty, hot it got.

Also, what a PH needs and what a client needs are two totally different things. A client needs a rifle he can shoot well for the first shot. A PH needs a tool.

I am a firm believer in a general purpose working rifle and then selecting the right tool for specialised jobs. Ie I want a carry rifle that either has lots of rounds or is quick to reload- (ie no .375's or .404's build on a standard legth action that you have to hook the rounds into and no 700's), Is light to carry and easy to shoot fast.

Come a follow up of a wounded elephant cow or a buff in difficult terain, I want something with some power (used to use a .450 NE)

A wounded leopard or lion? I want my FAL

I had to have my Ruger 416 Rigby worked on by Mark Penrod due to FEEDING problems but I also had him look at the extraction as a result of Ganyana's report a while back. Mark noted no problems but did "clean up" the extractor a bit. I've never had a problem with it since and believe me, I cycled that bolt FAST when I was shooting that buffalo this past June! If the trouble seems to be isolated to the 416s, could it be the large case?

Alos, for Mike 378: You had me in your corner with the pushfeed Weatherbys buddy, until you mentioned the 700s. jorge