The report I offer below was written at the request of the owner of Argali Ltd, the outfitter we used for our trip. We were promised a refund on submittal of this report to him. I have added a few lines to further explain some facets to those reading who were not involved. No refund came and now I feel enough time has passed to have given both him, and our booking agent fair chance to act in good faith, so I include it here. I also choose to post this here as the booking agent posted the offer on this site, and I see he has recently done so again, so feel duty to tell all of our experience. I will link this report to the offer In the outfitter-offers and discount hunts section.

KYRGYZSTAN TRIP REPORT.

Pre hunt. Most correspondence to us was late, giving us not enough time to work through issues. Rifle permits arrived less than 12 hours before we departed from internet contact and we only received them at our prompting. Steve's had to be forwarded to us due to his permit not arriving at all.
Issues like VIP at airport and altitude pills only brought to our attention in 24hrs pre departure.

Expectations

The basic expectation was that our contract would be upheld re guides and services. I also feel we have a rightful expectation to be taken to areas that hold healthy populations of animals. What must be remembered is that Mike had already hunted Kyrgyzstan 2 years prior and had a visual conformation of what was available for ibex hunting and what we should expect re animals and guides. The area we were allocated this trip fell far below that of Mikes previous trip and so did the guide to client ratio and ability. Indeed this broke our contract from the start As our contract stated a guide each for myself and Steve, who were hunting Ibex. 2 guides for Mike who was hunting Marco polo. The area was over hunted and suffering from poaching was the conclusion we came too.
We did our research and came to the table with an Ibex minimum of 100cm, give or take a small amount. Anything over that was a bonus, anything under (90cm shot in good faith of it being 100cm.) was too small. I do not feel this expectation was unreasonable.

Arrival Day.

At Bishkek airport.
Pick up late, completed Customs and firearms import ourselves as our contacts didn't show for 1.5 hours. In that time(3am kryg time.) Steve and I were sent out of customs with no interpreter and no passports or gear to find a photocopy machine to copy our documents.
Arrived at basecamp. No guides and no horses present.

Day 1.

One guide between 3 of us and one driver/jeep arrive. We were Informed because no horses, we would drive roads and look for Ibex.
No marco polo or guide for Mike. We drive road stopping at house to ask if any Ibex around. See very little sign. Finally see tracks at days end. One guide and 2 clients climb by foot and sidle for 4 hrs, finally locating a group of females and juveniles. Asked to shoot. We decline. Return to camp. Steve asked about trophy potential, and in the end they said we could expect to shoot 80cm ibex only. I thought this was unreasonably small. That night we were told of next days plans. We were going Ibex hunting. Mike could shoot marco polo if any were seen, but there were not many where Ibex were.

Day 2.

Horses and one more guide arrive at camp making 2 guides all up. Spend half of morning shoeing horses and packing, then depart for mountains.
See one group of Ibex, approx 3 males, 8 females. Males all under 80cm. One group of Marco Polo, all female and juveniles. Decline to shoot on both accounts.
Mike and guide 2 go separate way, we meet again at dark.

Day 3.

Guide 2 departs leaving 3 hunters and one guide. Mike is left with horses while Steve, I and guide1 climb mountain to search next drainage, approx. 3000 hectare in view. We see 3 ibex, male, all less than 80cm. We decline to shoot. Go back to Mike. Find guide 2 waiting with him. Mike informs us there are 3 other people hunting this area and that their truck is parked below us. We ride down to truck and leave a message. I am sure I hear them say Seladang but the guides will not tell us who it is that is hunting there. We saw no more ibex for day and set up camp that night a couple of hours ride further along.


Day4.

We rode together for a couple of hours after packing camp looking for marco polo. After that I go with Guide 2 to find truck and new camp. We take jeep and search for Ibex, find group of 30. One animal over 80cm possibly 100cm? I am asked to shoot. it is over 900 meters. I decline. They say we cant get closer. We decide to try next day. We return to camp. Mike Steve and guide 1 arrive later. They saw about 20 female and juvenile ibex. That night we are told there are no Marco Polo in this area, so Mike will stay at camp.

Day 5

Mike stays at camp Guide 1and 2 take us on horse to same place we saw Ibex previous night. We soon spot 3 group of Ibex, all to far to shoot. Guide2 tells us he will stay here while guide 1 takes us behind ibex and up to mountain top. Guide 2 will then drive ibex towards us till they are exhausted and that we should shoot all males and pick biggest one each for trophy. We say no! We will only shoot one each! We leave guide 2. I decide I will not take part in this hunt as it is not ethical or what I came here to do. I ride my horse back to camp. later Steve decides to return to camp as well and not take part.
Guide 2 comes back to camp to ask why Im not hunting. I tell him that to drive ibex will ruin whole area for hunting and its bad and I would rather return to NZ without Ibex than shoot one this way.
He agrees and tells me to get on horse and we will go hunt Ibex properly. Because there is spare horse, I ask that interpreter can come along. They agree, so 3 of us, me Guide 2 and interpreter go hunting. This is important as we had clear communication for whole hunt.
We ride up valley and then climb mountain on foot. Soon we find one of the previously seen Ibex groups. Guide 2 tells me there is 100cm Ibex there. We hunt on foot for next hour until we are 500 meters from group. Guide selects Ibex for me. I tell him I do not think it is big enough. He tells me again it is 100cm. I ask him to put sights of rifle on correct animal. He does so and confirms we are looking at same animal. Again I ask him to align sights. he does so again. One more time to be positive I ask him to align sights on correct Male. Again he does so. I can now be certain we are talking about same animal. Again he tells me to shoot. I shoot This animal.
Guide then tells me its smaller than I wanted, but to be happy as I now have my ibex. I start to think I have been tricked.
Interpreter leaves to get horses and bring them around to ibex. Guide2 and I climb over to retrieve shot animal. When we get there I am dismayed to find small ibex, approx 60-70cm. Guide 2 shrugs. I refuse photograph but help him to retrieve animal.
When we meet interpreter again, guide 2 says he needed spotting scope. I take this to mean that he is saying he did not know how big it was. I tell him I refuse to accept animal. He then tells me its my fault, I shoot wrong one. I say no, I shoot exact animal he told me to. And I confirmed it many times.
We ride back to camp.
At camp we have meeting and tell all staff that the entire hunt has not been to acceptable standard and that our contract has been broken. Mike has not had any guides and has not hunted Marco polo at all on 4 of 5 days so far of 10 day hunt. That they can not tell us to shoot undersize animals and that from start we have been very clear that we do not wish to shoot anything under 100cm and would rather go home without ibex. They know this.
Guide 2 again changes his story and now says there were 6 ibex males, and that he never told me to shoot one, that he told me to pick one from group. We start to get really angry now. When confronted with his changing stories i am told to forget about this ibex and go hunt another one. That they will make this one disappear. I agree, but do not believe them and decide I will not shoot another ibex as I think i have not seen the last of this one.
Guide 2 then suggest that we get up at 3 Am next morning and ride to new area. Steve and I agree. Again Mike is told to stay at camp and they will take him to new area that day.

Day 6

We get up at 3AM and prepare horses and ride out to new area. Guide 1 accompanies us. Guide 2 stays in bed. We ask where he is and don't get response.We find it unacceptable to have one guide for two of us.
We ride until sunrise up into mountains. At daylight I find out that my eyesight has deteriorated to point I can only see 150mm from my face clearly. I inform Guide 1 and Steve. I sit and hope eyesight will recover. Guide one finds Ibex and wants us to wait here all day until we can hunt them in the evening. We tell him I need to loose altitude as we think I have altitude sickness. It later turns out that the Diamox tablets I had been asked to take the day before I left had dropped my blood pressure below the point of sustaining eyesight. He doesn't wish to, so I start to walk down by myself. They hear gunshots from around the mountain. Soon Steve tells guide we have to go and calls off hunt. We return to camp. If we had have had our contracted number of guides, Steve could have continued hunting while I was taken back to camp. Steve offered to stay and watch ibex movements while i was taken back so the guide could return that afternoon. The guide refused.
Mike is still at camp and is now told it will be the next morning before he is moved. Steve is told he will be moved to better camp next evening. We are worried I might have altitude sickness. We make them get car to get me that night. I am driven to Naryn, but its only 800 meters lower than where we were. I pay 100usd for car and petrol to drive me to Naryn. Steve and Mike are told I have been taken to Bishkek. That night the camp manager and guide 2 Plus driver sit me at table and interrogate me. I am told that i am reason they have not shown us ibex or marco polo. I tell them its because we are in area with not suitable animals and that we dont have enough guides to be hunting properly. They ignore this and then bring up the head from the small Ibex. They tell me I owe trophy fee, but they will let me shoot new ibex to replace it. I feel like this is threat. I agree, but decide I will stick with original decision and not shoot another ibex. I tell them again I do not want any part of this animal and will not take it home as a trophy. The meeting ends. I am left at Naryn after doctor checks me with no interpreter and just left waiting to find out what will happen.

Day 7

I wait at Naryn all day. Still without vision and only with a glass of water. That night some English hunters arrive. They tell host that they will take me to Bishkek with them and help me organize accommodation.
They tell me that they have been moved here so that Mike And Steve can hunt their block. They also tell me that there are no Marco Polo at new block, and that the Ibex hunting is the same as what we have already had.
That night Mike rings me. He tells me they had been refusing to let him contact me, and that they told him I was at Bishkek. He is surprised that I am still at Naryn as that is where he is, but they still wont let him see me until next day.
He informed me that they never got transferred to new camps, and that the situation had deteriorated so badly, and that they were being told so many lies that He and Steve had terminated the hunt and we being taken back to Bishkek.

Day 8

Next morning I was driven to meet Mike and Steve and we we taken to Bishkek and set up in an apartment for remainder of trip. We were told it was $150usd a night. At end we were charged $180usd a night. Agreement in original contract was that company pays first night accommodation. I feel this added cost was a way of making us pay that as well. We met with Rinat, and his staff member who spoke good english and were told to write this report and submit it for a refund of hunt fees.

Conclusion

After 3 days my eyesight returned to normal. The doctor at Naryn said it was the medication (Diamox) to prevent altitude sickness that had caused it.
I feel we expressed our concerns and also our expectations at reasonable times and gave reasonable opportunity to our guides and the company to fix issues. I got sick of not being told the truth, and not having our concerns addressed. I also think that we had no other reasonable course of action left to take other than to terminate the hunt at the stage where it became clear we were being misled and our contract had being broken. I think we are owed full refund as contract was broken and reasonable expectations were not full-fulled.

Rinat has refused to correspond with us once we left Kyrgyzstan. Theo has stopped corresponding with us since we pointed out our contract was with him.

I was on this hunt with Craig and Mike.
I have always said that my worst hunt was a South African debacle in 2000. That title has now been claimed by this train wreck. I can not begin to estimate the total number of lies we were told on this trip.
If anyone is considering doing this trip through SkinAfrika Consulting, well, Caveat Emptor.

Wow, what a disaster. Sorry to hear this hunt went this way. Kyrgyzstan is certainly somewhere that you need to be very careful who you're dealing with and which area you are hunting.

I hope you get some sort of compensation for this, sounds like a nightmare.

Greg

I got physically ill while reading your story. I've only been on a couple Asian hunts and they went very well....unlike yours.
You handled your emotions better than I would have under those very difficult circumstances.
So sorry to hear that some folks are willing to treat you so badly and take your money at the same time.
Zeke

I think every trip to Kyrgyzstan has a bit of the disaster factor but yours took it to new heights. This is one of the reasons I like working through a North American booking agent. At least I can knock on his door and express my displeasure. Sorry to hear about your misadventure....I'm sure you thought it was going to be a dream hunt when you booked it.

Hi guys,

I feel sorry for you, but how many times do you have to hear that booking through a well reputed outfitter and agent is vital in these countries ?

I have several times here on AR said that booking through some very long experienced European outfitters will save from such situations like this.

Some one never learn !


Morten

It is no small wonder to me why there are fewer and fewer hunting reports here on AR. It seems someone always wants to find a way that the hunter was at fault for a bad trip?

Morten,
when you say "very long experienced European outfitters" I assume you mean agents like Seledang or Westfalia Jagdreisen?

Well, what would you say to the Spanish hunter who I rode back to the airport with that booked through Seladang, paid them $20k Euros for a Marco Polo/Ibex hunt, and was placed with this outfitter?
He never saw a ram! And was told there would be no refund.
He was furious.
(One bright spot of the trip, I learned a couple new spanish curse terms!)

What would you tell him he should have done to save himself from this kind of situation?

Take a look at Greg Brownlee's last hunt report from Kyrgyzstan. He is a booking agent and they kind of screwed him over by not letting him hunt the area where he had originally booked in to.
If they will do these kind of things to guys like him, what chance does the average guy have?

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I think every trip to Kyrgyzstan has a bit of the disaster factor but yours took it to new heights. This is one of the reasons I like working through a North American booking agent. At least I can knock on his door and express my displeasure. Sorry to hear about your misadventure....I'm sure you thought it was going to be a dream hunt when you booked it.

I 100% agree with the above comments. Sorry about the bad hunt guys.

Brett

I think this was our contact when we arrived in Bishkek also, Argali LTD. We waited at the airport for over two hours and finally someone showed up. We had to go back the next day to claim our guns and it took over EIGHT hours to get them. I did kill an ibex but my friends didn't do so well.

What were the dates that this hunt took place? I was there the second and third week of November/14.i hunted with Kairat's outfit.

Kestrel 1st Nov-13th.

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
It is no small wonder to me why there are fewer and fewer hunting reports here on AR. It seems someone always wants to find a way that the hunter was at fault for a bad trip?

Morten,
when you say "very long experienced European outfitters" I assume you mean agents like Seledang or Westfalia Jagdreisen?

Well, what would you say to the Spanish hunter who I rode back to the airport with that booked through Seladang, paid them $20k Euros for a Marco Polo/Ibex hunt, and was placed with this outfitter?
He never saw a ram! And was told there would be no refund.
He was furious.
(One bright spot of the trip, I learned a couple new spanish curse terms!)

What would you tell him he should have done to save himself from this kind of situation?

Take a look at Greg Brownlee's last hunt report from Kyrgyzstan. He is a booking agent and they kind of screwed him over by not letting him hunt the area where he had originally booked in to.
If they will do these kind of things to guys like him, what chance does the average guy have?

Hello Coyote Hunter,

I have no experience with Seladang so I am not able to comment on that. I know that Westfalia has long experience from these countries. Same has one Norwegian outfitter named Mr Ansten Østbye. I have used these two outfitters on 5 hunts in these countries without any problem and 100 % successful every tme.

There are more outfitters that have long experience in this region of the world. Bryan Martin is one of them, some other European and US outfitters also. When booking through these agents you have to the job and get references that have hunted in the same specific areas and you have to talk to them. You have to have contracts saying which area you are going to hunt in, but the most important thing is that you must know that the agent himself in person is in the area you are hunting when you are hunting there.

Hunting is not a 110% guarantee and that fact added to nthe fact that operating in these countries is a risk in itself makes things happen. Therefore I would never book a hunt in these countries through a plain booking agent, that again books with another booking agent that again books with a region operator that again books again With the performing outfitter or organization. Culture, language, lack of precise communication, different way of business thinking etc screw you a lot of time and to minimize these risks you have to book through an agent/aoutfitter that has his own organization on the spot and/or are coming along.

Sorry, but this is my experience.


Morten

Thats a fair comment Morten. We are definitely a little wiser after this experience and also hope some others can learn from what we went through without having to go through it.

Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to post your experiences. While Morten's comments come across as a bit coarse, he has nailed it, and your hunt proves his point.

I am sorry you had such a miserable time. It sounds like you guys handled it as best as you could, and you should be commended for not ending up in a Kyrgyzstan prison!

Gulag on them bastards
Simply inexcusable
I have long standing attitude of not hunting in Asia as way too many reports I have heard over the years went wrong
Plus I'm not sheep/goat guy unless a bit horny ...

Wow, I was considering a hunt here and one that was offered by this exact booking agent!

I really do appreciate you posting this!

The said Outfitter should be on here explaining the situation. This does not sound good.

Thanks again for posting!!

Jason,
When was the last time you spoke with him?
He has totally disappeared for us and will not return our emails.
This was after we pointed out the fact that our contract was with him.
After a debacle like we had, he can't work out a refund?
That says a lot about a person in my opinion.

Coyote:

I have never hunted with him. I did ask him about an ibex hunt and spoke with him several months back. I would guess that we spoke about 8 or 9 months ago.

The more problems that I hear about in these areas, the more likely I will be to avoid them.

Thanks for sharing.

Tough hunt guys and I feel for anyone that has an experience like you did. Thanks for taking the time to post and reminding us all that things do go horribly wrong at times and that booking with the right people is paramount.