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| one of us |
The muzzle loading firearm season was created by the lobbying efforts of the buckskinners using traditional ML rifles and muskets. These "modern muzzleloaders" should only be used in the modern rifle hunting seasons. | ||
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Not always the case rifleman, your statement don't apply to all circumstances. But its OK cause the inliners increase in numbers everyday while the traditionalists numbers shrink or at best hold their own. Don't look for any sweeping changes to the current laws except for a loosening up of regs as the ML'er season becomes more of a DNR tool to help control deer herds all the time. Pa and NY just relaxed their regs further and other states will do likewise as more of the ML'er hunters become inliners all the time. Look at the gunracks in local shops and the number of pages in suppliers catalogs devoted to inlines compared to traditional style ML'ers. Handwriting is on the wall. woods | |||
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If these guys want to use modern rifles in the muzzle loading firearm season, then let 'em use their cartridge firearms. Really. If it is just about game management, then let the hunters use modern cartridge firearms. Point is that the buckskinners were the ones that created the muzzle loading rifle seasons and the other hunters wanted in on the action. But many of todays hunters are not interested in becoming proficient with primitive muzzleloaders. So the manufacturers created the modern muzzle loading rifles. If we allowed these hunters to use their modern cartridge rifles in the muzzle loading season, then that will be the end of the modern muzzle loading rifles. The buckskinners will continue to use the traditional guns. Ideally, we would then set aside special hunts for the primitive weapons which is a way for the letter of the law to match the spirit of the law. | |||
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Not correct in my state as my post on the other thread explains. Our ML'er season WAS NOT created by traditionalists and it was never intended to exclude a portion of the ML'er hunters because they didn't use guns the traditionalists liked. You are fighting a loosing battle and if you want to go full primitive with a flintlock........than lobby for your own flintlock season and hunt primitive in all respects not just with your gun choice. woods | |||
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If we should not exclude anyone, then we should not exlude the modern cartridge firearms. If we allowed the modern cartridge rifles, then it will just be the traditionalists out there with with muzzle loading firearms. Point is that the guys using modern muzzleloading rifles would really prefer using their modern cartridge firearms anyway. | |||
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Arts,.... Very good post!!.... "INLINE MUZZLELOADERS are trying to have the "best" of both worlds, but,.... without the "handicaps" of either world! Folks who use the modern inline muzzleloaders, better hope that those us at "either end" of the spectrum, never "join forces" to lobby for changes in the current hunting regulations!!   .... as for myself, I consider it "only a matter of time" before thet happens!!  | |||
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Don't see that happening in any state at this point and with most DNR's getting a special ML'er fee or stamp and it generating additional $ I don't see it happening either. If CF hunters want to eliminate the ML'er seasons they would have to band together and do that on local state levels and thats not happening in any state either. Traditionalists are loosing ground every year in numbers to the inliners and already new ML'er hunters to the sport look on inlines as the definition of ML'er as there are less and less sidelock and traditional hunters all the time. The power and numbers to lobby are already on the inliners side and with inlines outselling traditional ML'ers at 7-1 how do you think the rank and file of ML'er hunters are going to vote? I've heard this theory that ML'er seasons will be discontinued and eliminated because of inlines and I see no evidence or support of this as state game agencies are relaxing ML'er regs more all the time with scopes and inlines being allowed in more ML'er seasons every year. The sky isn't falling and the hunting pie will always be sliced with the numbers effected a top priorty with the DNR.Traditionalists are very vocal but rapidly becoming a minority voice in the scheme of local seasons because if they outlaw or ban inlines they'll loose major permit and stamp revenue. Toby Bridges has had excellant success lobbying state DNR's to allow smokeless because his arguements are common sense and have merit. Sorry guys......don't buy the we're gonna loose our seasons to the CF guys and shoot ourselves in the foot......only shooting I been doing is at deer. woods | |||
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Don't see where the G&F would loose any money. 99 out of a 100, or better, would go for a regular tag instead--same money. How many BP hunters would just say "no hunting for me" if the BP season was eliminated? Damn few, I'd guess. They would just apply for a CF tag. Hunter numbers wouldn't change. | |||
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Arts, in my state there are no tags unless its a free doe tag. Revenue is obtained by extra stamps one of which is a ML'er stamp for about $12. If they run off two thirds or so of the ML'er hunters they would take a big hit in revenue for a season that comes after the month long CF and month long bow. The CF hunters up here don't care about some rag tag ML'ers that shoot about 1000 of the 25000 or so deer shot after everyone else is done for the year. All ML'ers were involved in starting Maines ML'er season and it was never limited to BP or primitive firearms from the first day till now. Inlines were for sale and in use when our ML'er season was implemented. Don't look for any changes up here where sabots - inlines - scopes - and smokeless have been and will continue to be legal. woods | |||
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Well, I'm guessing here, admittedly, but it seems logical that if you have a muzzleloader stamp, you must also have a centerfire stamp, right? Now, I suppose that stamp is the equivalent of a tag, right? i.e., one must have the stamp to shoot (hunt) a deer? You can't have both a CF and BP stamp, can you? So, if old Joe can't buy a muzzleloader stamp, i.e., can't hunt deer with his muzzleloader, isn't he then pretty damn likely to buy a CF stamp, or tag, or whatever you have, so that he can hunt deer, but it will be with a centerfire? I doubt he'll quit deer hunting just because he can't do it with a muzzleloader, so the state still gets it's money. | |||
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Good call Buck knife! I like your path! We're mostly all out to have a fun time with family and/or friends. So as long as we can do it, it's sure not worth argueing over it. I have friends I go on weekend flintlock only hunts with, but I also have friends that I go to the pit with and shoot .270 and .44 mag. with. We always have fun and as long as we make it home safe... it was a good day. Flinter | |||
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Arts - Nope. Not missing the point whatsoever. Some of you want to impose your wishes/beliefs on the rest of us. You can write a book beating around the issue, but that IS the whole point. As has been already pointed out in this thread several times, you are in an ever decreasing minority. Departments of Natural Resources will listen to where the money is, not to those who bark the loudest. There is nothing in any of your reasoning for them to hear. Speaking of missing the point........Shotgunners in this state refers to DEER hunters. There is no CF season in Iowa. You are the first "CF hunter" I've ever heard who thinks even the inline is NOT a handicap. Even a lot of the shotgunners in this state regard any ML, including inlines, as a big handicap (no 2d, 3d, 4th, 5th shot). Their mentality does not bother me, nor do I attempt to enlighten them. The referred 7000 permits are 1st Season ML permits. They go very fast. If one does not get one of those permits during the first few days they are available, the permits can be gone. Then the options are to use the ML for one of the Shotgun Seasons, or the Late ML Season. That's how I've been stuck in a 2d ML Season. I REFUSE to go out during shotgun season when slugs are flying everywhere. (And I'm serious -- they REALLY get DANGEROUS around here.) There are no tag restrictions placed on shotgunners in Iowa because of ML seasons. That may be different in your state, but here, there is a need for a 70,000 head harvest. The only quota made is on 1st Season Muzzle Loader. There is a special late, late season in which there are spare permits in various numbers for different counties, but many times, a lot of them are not even bought. Therefore, no one really has room to complain about anything here. It may be different in your state, but you don't have the vote (or the right) to dictate or impose your views on those of us in Iowa. And I could care less what you do in yourstate -- it's none of my business, and I don't care to impose my views on you. If you can appreciate that, then you can certainly figure out what I would appreciate from you!!! | |||
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This whole discussion is cracking me up. "Yeah, my Volvo's faster than your VW!" Or whatever. You can hang together or surely hang separately. Funny thing is that if you take the time to understand the differences betwixt inlines and quality sidelocks, the conventional old school guns will shoot circles around the inlines day in, day out. I think it's a lot like a debate between a fly fisherman and a plug caster. JMO. | |||
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No Arts there is no stamp or tag or anything......you just buy a basic hunting license. Everyone needs a license to hunt the bow and ML'er guys just have to buy special additional stamp or license to hunt. Well Dan.....it would be quite funny but these guys want to exclude others from a valid legal hunting season because of their gun choice and thats not a very "hang together" sentiment. Time and numbers will tell I guess. Lot of buckskin underware getting in a bunch. woods | |||
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No, Mr. Boone, I'm not trying to impose anything on you. I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone. As I pointed out, I'm not even a muzzleloader hunter. But I still feel that they risk loosing their very special privelage season by allowing the in-lines, scopes, sabots, etc. As hard as it is to get a deer tag, the CF boys are going to start raising hell. They already are. I think those states that don't allow any of the modern stuff are in a better situation with regard to maintaining peace amongst the boys. Surely you made a typo when you said 70,000 deer to be killed. Maybe 7000, but that's a lot. Also, educate me a bit--why are people hunting deer with a shotgun? That's pretty much for guys that only have 1 gun, a shotgun, isn't it? I can't imagine there would be many out hunting deer with a shotgun. | |||
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Arts, a minor sidebar to this thread: Lots of people hunt deer with a shotgun. Some do it because it is all their state game regs. permit, others because of choice. I do not own a slug gun with rifled bore but they generally shoot well out to 150 yards or so. I do own several shotguns suitable for deer(all of them actually), and use them when stand or still hunting in dense cover. I do not especially care for slugs although I have used them, preferring buckshot for this application. At the ranges I use them, no rifle on the planet is more deadly. | |||
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Quote: Does anyone else view the above qoute, as "contradicting" itself????  | |||
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Nothing contradicting at all......if you don't want modern inline methods pushed on you perhaps a lot of ML'er hunters don't want tradionalist methods and equipment pushed on them. Its all a numbers thing and the numbers are what will be heard and listened to. We have had all the ML'er hunters as long as our season has existed and we get along without all this bickering and exclusion talk and we all hunt and shoot deer the way we want in ML'er season. woods | |||
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Please describe,.... "modern inline methods". | |||
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woodseye - I'm going to the forum in which you are moderator for more intelligent discussion. These guys realize they have lost the war and come here to whine. It's surprising they even have computers to air their "traditionalist" causes. If they communicated in the same manner as they want to force all of us to hunt, they would still be using pony express. I'm outa here! | |||
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"Winners" don't retreat!! | |||
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They don't retreat they enjoy their hunting with inlines which has and will continue to be legal where I hunt. Define inline methods.........well lets see.......using an inline ML'er...........hey thats it ! Yeah Danno......most forums end up splitting into two factions and thats the only way theres peace. I'll be leaving now myself as the facts and numbers have spoken...much to the trads dismay. woods | |||
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Quote: Thanks for the "explanation"... it's what I expected from you,... any other attempt, and you would've sounded like us "traditionalists"!!  | |||
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Holy crap! I guess I have started a war. I should have seen it coming. The anonymity of the web encourages us to say things we'd NEVER say face to face. Maybe if the other guy was a midget, but two equals wouldn't dream of uttering the hateful, judgmental and insulting language. | |||
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Gonzo,..... Awww!!.. Don't give it much thot, wars like this are common-place and happen all tha time. The inline "johnny-come-latelys" trespass on "tradition",... then they start whine'n 'bout us be'n "holier-than-thou", 'cause we don't want the inlines "bastardize'n" the gene-pool. Inline lover's,... made the "first move" in start'n this "war",... but,.. I guess they've forgot thet "traditional muzzleloaders" have been 'round for 300 years before this recent "invasion",..... and the traditional muzzloader will still be here 300 years after the "inline fad" fades away! The "fad" will most certainly fade away due to several things,.... 1. Too much "advanced technology" result'n in the elimination of the "special muzzleloader seasons". 2. The centerfire hunters will blend ther "voices" with the traditionalists,.. and say,... "Hey!! enough is enough, git REAL one way or anuther"!!  3. The deer population might sooner or later, decrease because of wide spread desease, eliminate'n "high-density" deer populations,... thus eliminate'n the "middle of the road" inline muzzleloader.  4. Or,..... a combination of "any of the above".  Only "time" will tell what's in store for the future of muzzleloaders,..... but!!...... "traditional" muzzleloaders have "time" on ther side!!  | |||
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Quote: My vote for the single most disingenuous statement on the web this month! What were you REALLY thinking? Brent | |||
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Brent, maybe your little statement says more about you than you realize. I have no experience with your behavior here so I can only speculate. My first guess is that you're the type to start wars. I, on the other hand, am not. But since I don't know you there's an equal chance you're just being a smartass, which I can appreciate. So if you're being an ass, to hell with you and your family. But if you're being a smartass, congratulations, you got me to bite. (smartass, BTW-->  Oh and big congrats on spelling "disingenuous" correctly. All too often the fancy words people use are spelled comically wrong. (<--smartass, BTW) | |||
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Quote: WOW!!!!..... "disingenuous" must be one powerful bad word, to cause someone to start call'n a feller what used it,.. bad names,.... (I better go look it up in the dicsunary)!! disingenuous,=..... "Not straightforward",.."crafty". What's so "god-awful" 'bout thet, Gonzo??.... proponents of inlines are like thet all tha time!! | |||
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I know I'm in the minority after reading the responses, I think they ought to just make it another CF season and get it over with. The primitive is long gone. I thought ML was eventually going to get close to CF velocitys, but its already done as someone emailed me. The Savage Model 10ML uses smokeless powder, shotgun primers and I quote from the ad: Use of smokeless powder creates muzzle velocities that are roughly comparable to standard centerfire rifles. Smokeless powder will eliminate the extensive, time consuming cleaning shores that result from using black powder. This looks like the way to go in shotgun only states. I am still one of the dummies out there with a recurve bow during bow season, but I still enjoy it. I could care less what anyone else uses, this is just my opinion (which is what I thought this forum was for). My last post I gave my opinion politly and was stepped on pretty hard. Lighten up boys! | |||
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Your the one with the "I'm more entitled than you to the same deer even if your way is legal also" attitude there RB. So your looking for the ML'er seasons to end and yet they are loosening the regs and allowing more liberal ML'er and equipment use. Hmmmmmm........that don't look good for ya  Next you figger that the CF boys will throw in with the traditionalists on this issue when they are more likely to buy an inline and join the ML'er season in the first place. I guess you mean "all" those CF guys that don't or won't ML hunt and yet are so interested in the current trends that they will join you in your crusade. Doubt thats gonna happen either .And your last hope is that the deer herd dies off to disease and numbers lower to where those pesky inliners get booted from the ML'er season? Wow......you really got some unusual things you look for. If disease cuts the herd back like that.......guess what? NO ML'er seasons for anybody at that point .No......time is not on your side and every indicator points to that more each day. Stay PC and don't use any of that "modern" triple 7 or pyrodex either | |||
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IceHoleKen,..... Some'a them inlines even have modern centerfire rifles beat when it comes to ballistics. For instance,... the Ulitame inline muzzleloader, made in Howell Michigan. This "puppy" will launch a 300gr. bullet at over 2900 feet per second,.. and a 180grn'er at an astonish'n 3100 feet per second. The fella thet has one, has witnessed an "elk-kill" with one of the Ulitame Muzzleloaders,... at 450 yards!! HEY!!!!....... CENTERFIRE HUNTERS,..... DO YA THINK "THIS" MUZZLELOADER,.....NEEDS A "SPECIAL SEASON"??????????? | |||
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Quote: Woodseye,.... Yore real good at put'n words in other feller's mouths,.... and yore be'n awful "DISINGENUOUS" (thet'sa new word I learnt today),.... I'll let you charge a new inline muzzleloader (of yore choice) to Dannoboone's credit-card,.... "IF",.... you can find the word "HOPE" in my earlier post!!!!!!! I use only "Goex" blackpowder in my muzzleloaders, and BPCR's!! I ain't never felt the "need" to use "fake powder", or for thet matter,... "fake muzzleloaders", or,... would thet be, "fake centerfires"?? (it's git'n difficult to distinguish the "difference"!!)  | |||
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DigitalDan, Your post isn't a sidebar. It's one of the core reasons ultramag ML's will lead to problems. Shotgun areas are because of safety concerns. MLs are allowed in these areas because of their reduced range compared to centerfire rifle. I don't think rifle hunters complaining about ML is an issue. The area I hunt is way down on deer & nobody is blaming ML hunters. We all know who's at fault & it isn't them allowing an early ML that caused it. And it aint the weather either. | |||
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He He He....see ya in the woods there RB.....don't need no more ML'ers as I got three here now. Guess my ol' Savage will be OK seeing as how its loaded from the muzzle and all. I don't use any of that "fake" black powder stuff either.......I prefer smokeless Easier to clean later and cheaper to buy. Can't see deer at 450yds here.....to many dang trees Until then as chicken little said........the sky is fallin'..... the sky is fallin' or is that................. the inliners are killin' all our deer........ the inliners are killin' all our deer It was fun, but now its tiresome,your points are weird to say the least and if you believe those ultimate specs I got some swampland for ya . woods | |||
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Woodseye,.... You have "ONLY ONE honest point" in defense of yore inline rifle, and thet is,.... it's considered "legal" dur'n "SOME" muzzleloader seasons,....... at least for the "time being". BTW,... The "Ulitame" and the Ultimate",... AIN'T the "same" inline muzzleloader!! P.S.,... I don't think you'd recognize "swampland",... if you was stand'n "neck deep" in it!! | |||
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Quote: Flintlocks heyday lasted around 200 years, caplocks heyday lasted maybe 50 at most. Modern inline Muzzleloaders have been around nearly 20 years and are still going strong. The trend seems to be for more relaxed regulations and not tighter. Penn. Recently allowed caplocks and inline muzzleloaders despite having been flintlock only for many years. States that limit firearm technology to slugguns also let you legally use an inline muzzleloader during the general firearm season. Many people that I know personally, prefer a modern muzzleloader to a shotgun. I do myself. I have also read many times about someone new to muzzleloading because they don't like shooting a sluggun. Muzzleloading is the fastest growing hunting sport due to the popularity of inline muzzleloaders. Don't belive me? Just go to several hunting stores that carry muzzleloaders. Most places these days do not even carry sidelocks of any kind, and flintlocks are even rarer yet! Know why? It's supply and demand. More people want new inlines so stores stock inlines. So few people are interested in sidelocks that stores are not willing to stock many if any. Most places will custom order them for you if you want one (for a fee of course). All these things combined ensure that inline muzzleloaders will be around for some time. | |||
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Wolfhound wrote: [qoute]Most places these days do not even carry sidelocks of any kind, and flintlocks are even rarer yet! Know why? It's supply and demand. More people want new inlines so stores stock inlines. So few people are interested in sidelocks that stores are not willing to stock many if any. Most places will custom order them for you if you want one (for a fee of course). All these things combined ensure that inline muzzleloaders will be around for some time. Wolfhound,.... It's impossible to base muzzleloader-sales on the "kind" of "CHEAP" muzzleloaders displayed on the shelves of "discount stores". A survey was done recently on anuther website such as this one, wher a "POLL" was taken of the "poster's favorite muzzleloader",... TRADITIONAL,.. or,... INLINE. The results wher:..... 66% of voters favored "traditional" muzzleloaders 33% of voters favored "inline" muzzleloaders Total voters,... was 65 nearly 1/2 of those voters, stated they owned "both" types of muzzleloaders,.. and nearly 1/2 of them said they would rather KEEP ther "traditional muzzleloader" if they had a choice of only keep'n one. The "thing" thet surprises me is,..... several of the "out-spoken proponents of inline muzzleloaders" here on this website, also posted on the "other" website and have seen the "results" of such a "POLL",.... yet they drag ther silly arguements over "HERE"!! (I guess some folks jest love to argue,... even tho they were "defeated in the polls"!!) BTW,.. Wolfhound,.... ain't YOU a "poster" over on thet "other website"???? HA! HA! HA! HA! P.S.,.... Woodseye,.. I'm sure I seen yore "handle" over "ther" too!! (wink, wink) | |||
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Any poll can be easily skewed to favor a certain viewpoint. A question on gun control for example can get two wildly different results depending on where the question is asked. If asked in Chigago you would probably get something like 80% of people favor stricter gun control. If asked here in the sticks you would be around 10% maybe. Does that mean that polling Chigago about American views on gun control means that the majority of people favor stricter gun laws? That's why I don't put any stock in polls. The only ones that really count are those that elect people to office. Any other poll is a waste of effort. Now then inline muzzleloading rifles make up 80% of the market and that number increases every year. That's fact. Also you said: Quote: The fact is that most people buy things where it is convienant to do so. And just FYI, I wasn't baseing my comment on discount stores. Check out sporting goods stores and other stores that sell quality guns. You will be hard pressed to find many traditional muzzleloaders. I know of ONLY ONE in my area that carries any. It's a T/C Hawken that's been there for a few years. I may buy guns from catalog companies, but I always keep an eye on local places too. They're good places to go when you have a hard to find item your looking for. | |||
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I only check out two ML'ing sites - HA and Greybeards,both of these sites are divided into traditional and modern inline. If you are talking about one of these I haven't seen any poll on the inline sites. If there was one it would be overwhelmingly in favor of inlines. You fight a loosing battle and the sales of inlines bare that out. Toodles woods | |||
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Quote: Wolfhound,.... the "poll" wasn't taken in Chicago,.... it was taken on a "pro-gun muzzleloader site" thet was visited by BOTH "types" of shooters (inline and traditional). "Numbers" under such a "poll",... DON'T LIE!! If you don't believe me,... maybe you ought to place a "simular POLL" on THIS SITE!! Speak'n of "numbers",.... please show us the "NUMBERS" thet "PROVE the 80%" you speak of,.. instead of jest grab'n percentages out of the "air"!! Did it ever occur to you, thet the fellas thet order guns in the "sport'n goods stores",... MORE'N LIKELY "DON'T" EVEN SHOOT MUZZLELOADERS,.... BUT THEY "DO READ AND BELIEVE", ALL THE "HYPE" IN THE "FLIERS" SENT TO SUCH STORES BY THE "INLINE" INDUSTRY???? ("sheeesh",...!! )Please feel free to place a simular "POLL" on this site,.... since the "other one" didn't prove to "yore like'n"!! (unless you think the remain'n "20% of traditional shooters" will skewer the results!! HA! HA! HA! HA!)I like see'n "facts" instead of "rhetorical babble"!!!! | |||
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