The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Muzzleloading Big Game Hunting Re: Not trying to start a war...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Quote: Well,..... "WHAT" do you suppose "preluded" the seperation between the 2 "types" of muzzleloaders on Graybeard's?????????????? (I'll give you a "hint",... it WAS the "poll" take'n while Graybeard's was a "combined site",..... jest before the inliner's "lost the battle" over ther!!) I suggest thet "if" you don't beieve me, thet you simply go to the "TRADITIONAL" site over on Graybeard's and "check back" to when it was a "combined-site" and you "WILL" find the "POLLS" with "votes" from both "camps"!!   I've come to realize thet you inliners enjoy "make'n up" yore own "facts and figures",... and are in "denial" thet traditional muzzleloaders are still the,... "muzzleloader of choice"!! Any further unsubstantial "inline babble" from the "MINORITY" on this thread, will git NO CONTINUED "responses" from me!!  Have fun with yore "modern make-believe muzzleloaders"!!!! HA! HA! HA! | |||
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I'll stick with my sidelock, but I think inlines are here to stay. This reminds me of the the mid to late eightys when I was poked fun of for riding my old '66 Electo Glide. The Gold Wings were out and everyone was telling me to move to the new technology. During the winter (late '80s) I was going to buy a new Harley, the store had them so discounted it was almost a giveaway (they couldnt get rid of the stock). I figured "next year". Well I went back the next winter to make a purchase and aparently the craze hit, they said no discount and a two year wait! So I bought a Gold Wing and kept the old '66. The Gold Wing was a very fine machine and I made lots of trips on it, but after a few years it seemed like I rode it less and less and rode the old Harley more and more. I sold the Wing and I still have the old Electroglide. A few years ago I rolled the speedometer over, I now have 108,000 on it and its still going strong, and I'm still saying "next year I'll get a new one" Basicly what I'm saying is somethings fit people differently. I guess I like the old technology, Harleys, recurves and traditional firearms. Others like the crotch rockets, compounds and inlines..... To each their own. | |||
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Quote: The results of that poll are just as meaningless as my hypothetical poll. All it means is that more traditionalists frequent that site. On other sites, that situation is flip flopped. You would agree that a poll there wouldn't reflect things accurately either. Quote: Pick up the book: Modern Muzzleloading for Todays Whitetails by Ian McMurchy. Check out page 13. That's just listed for Thompson Center sales, but logically the number would hold true for other companies with similar line ups. There are also other companies such as Knight that sell ONLY inline muzzleloaders though companies that sell only traditional styled guns might balance those out (doubtfull though). 80% inlines is probably more conservative than the actual numer. Inlines are here to stay. | |||
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Quote: Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!  | |||
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Quote: Les'see if I got this right,...... Polls are "meaningless",.... on a "combined site" with real people?? Yet you believe what some "proponent of inlines" writes in a book he's try'n to sell, all tha while he's "try'n to sound like an expert on inlines, and the "lack of" traditional "sales"!?!?.. hummmm  ...and, you also "take as gospel" the propaganda spewed by the "very people" who's make'n the modified-centerfires (inlines)!!.. hummmmm, now thers anuther impartial and reliable source of "info"!! THIS IS ALL A "JOKE",...... RIGHT???? HA! HA! HA! HA!.. OK!!.. you got me on "thet one"!! HA! HA! HA! HA! In "all seriousness" now!!....... I might think 'bout git'n a "inline",..... can you tell me which of the many "parts" supply-houses,... I should check with,.... for the "BEST PRICE" on "inline parts" so's I can build one????????????????????  ("Inliners have tunnel-vision,... probably caused by look'n thru scopes"!!!!! Inlines out-sell,..... ALL "custom muzzleloaders, "parts" for muzzleloaders, imported muzzleloaders, commercialy-sold traditional muzzleloaders, and home-built muzzleloaders,......... "YEAH RIGHT"! !!!(not even remotely "close"!)I'm done "fer good" one this thread,.... 'cause you won't "look outside yore little inline-circle"!!... BYE!! | |||
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Suppose it's about time I chimed in on this subject, since I have a whole pack of dogs in this fight. I currently own 10 ML's, and have owned another couple dozen over the years. Only 7 of them were "store bought" - 4 revolvers, a rifle, a smoothbore, and a pistol. All of the others were either "customs" or originals. Two of those were 18th Century airguns - a .41 smoothbore & .36 rifle. Of those I currently have, 4 are Flint, 5 are percussion (2 original), and the 10th I am converting back to flint from percussion. Two of those other 3 percussion ones are inlines . One is a revolver frame/hammer that I turned into a "competition" single shot. The 2nd is a 13 lb, 15 oz "competition" rifle with a firing plunger type action I machined out myself. It has a hand rifled 4130 .50 cal barrel with a false muzzle, a Timney (Mauser) trigger, Redfield International rear sight, and a Middleton Tompkins spirit level front sight with plastic inserts. These are both Round Ball guns. The rifle was used only once in competition, but the pistol was used extensively for that purpose. The 3rd is a custom "competition" under hammer Shotgun (12 Ga) that doesn't use plastic wads, but has a high rib and choke tubes. All were built well over 20 years ago, and, collectively, have won more than their fair share of matches. I can assure all of you that you won't find any of those 10, or most of those I used to own, in any store!  Futher, most of the "Traditionalists" I know, don't have "store bought" guns either.  Forgot to add - I do all my ML Big Game hunting with one of the Flintlocks. | |||
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Quote: Gees - and now you are slamming my family too? Amazingly bright. Sorry that your vocabulary is so limited. But have a nice day  Brent | |||
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I think you eastern guys have a different situation. Back there you seem to have a lot of deer. Seems that nearly everyone gets a tag, and it appears that at least in some situations, both a regular CF tag and a muzzle loader tag. Must be nice, but the rest of the country is a bit different. Just getting a tag is a big deal, and you sure as hell don't get 2. This I think is where the rift will occur against the in-line guns, as well as sabots, scopes, illuminated sights, shotgun primers, and BP substitutes. When tags are precious, then the concerns about where they go become more significant. Initially, the CF boys "accepted" a few tags going to muzzle loader boys, even though it is in a better hunting time period, because a) there weren't many BP boys, and b) they didn't get a lot of deer because of their self imposed limitations. Enter the new stuff and reason b evaporated, plus, seeing how much better the odds of getting a deer were in the special season using the new stuff (that approaches CF capabilities), reason a changed, i.e., lots of people going for the special seasons. That is aggrivating a lot of CF boys, and when they and the traditional boys team up, the effect may well be to eliminate the special season, or make it restricted to open sights, BP, no sabots, "traditional" ignition, etc. Perhaps not in the east, but elsewhere it is occurring. Wolfhound and Woodseye, I'm not against your weapon of choice, and don't advocate that you change, but suggest that it's future in a special select season may be limited, especially outside of the east. You simply have too much advantage. | |||
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In VA it is ONE (1) tag for THREE (3) deer. The mix of bucks and does can vary greatly depending on where you are hunting, when with what. This tag applies to all types of hunting for which you buy separate licenses. One for each of general gun, archery and muzzleloading. The law can be a bit quirky. One example is that you may not hunt during the muzzleloading season with a smoothbore muzzleloader at all, but you can hunt squirrels with a cartridge shotgun when the season overlaps, as it does. Another is that you CAN hunt with a smoothbore muzzleloader during the regular gun season (or a shotgun or rifle...) dependent somewhat on location. Yet another is that you MUST have a muzzleloader license to hunt squirrels with a muzzleloader but ONLY during the muzzleloading season! You can use the ML rifle for squirrel anytime during the season without a ML License EXCEPT ML season. Such idiocy in the law exacerbates certain frustrations on the part of traditionalists who worked for the seasons. They feel that it is only right that they can use their Rev War era flintlock musket with it's attendant restrictions when Bubba can get out there with his ML wondergun that is accurate and powerful enough to take deer at 6-8 times the distance. I will never understand how that somehow offends wondergun users. | |||
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Quote: I understand your concerns and wish you luck in changing your ML season regs. What I get pissed off about is when people run down inline muzzleloaders just because they don't like them. These people think their way is the only way to muzzleloader hunt. There are some inline muzzleloader guys who run down traditional guns too, but not as high a percentage. I shoot both styles. I've got 2 inline rifles and a sidelock and I use my ML rifles during our general season where my Ml's are at somewhat of a dissavantage due to the one shot I have. Illinois only allows shotguns shooting slugs, handguns, and muzzleloaders during the general season. I can't stand slug guns, and own no pistols so muzzleloader is my preference. Even if they made centerfire rifles legal I would still use my mls. The ONLY way I would stop using them is if they were illegal to hunt with in the general season. If that happened, I would likely quit deer hunting seriously as none of my other options are really apealing. I do bow hunt some but only because I get hungry for deer meat by the time archery season starts. | |||
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Quote: No kidding. there are no such issues here. Any ml 45 cal and up with no smaller than a 44 cal bullet. Singles, doubles fine. Smoothebores, rifled fine. Matchlocks, flintlocks and caplocks (including inlines)are all legal as long as they can't be loaded from the breech end. As long as the bullet isn't a FMJ and not propelled by smokeless powder fine. Scopes are also legal here. You do have to decide which is more important to you ML tags or firearm tags (though that may soon change to being able to apply for both). Ml season is the weekend after firearm season is over, but you can use your ml tag during the second weekend of firearm season. We are restricted to two antlered bucks, but can kill all the does and fawns we can get tags for. My wife's cousin got 10 this year. 7 with his bow and 3 with his muzzleloader (2 during the general season). Quote: Why would I be offended because your state has idiotic laws? Here the law makes no distintion between ML or centerfire shotguns. Quote: 6-8 times the distance? You must mean with a scope right? that would make the Rev War era flintlock musket range 18-25 yds right? My absolute max is 150. Divided by 8 is 18.75 and by 6 is 25. That's some pretty short range. Without scopes your talking 9-12 yds (divided the same way). My max is 75 yards with open sights. If those are the ranges your talking about, you do have problems. Better spend your efforts lobbying your lawmakers instead of harrassing your fellow sportsment. | |||
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Quote: My range is 180yds max.......that would make yours 22-30yds I guess Hmmmmmmmm? I have found there are Bubbas that hunt with traditional ML'ers also as its a term for somewhat dumb and ignorant rednecks up here in my hunting areas, Bubbas in all hunting disiplines.....we just avoid em' woods | |||
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Don't shoot me! I got into muzzleloading in the late 70's for a lot of the same reasons as everyone else- special seasons. At that time, you were limited to sidelock, round ball, and no scope (not that you could find a factory in-line anyways). As a result, I developed an appreciation for "traditional" rifles and wouldn't hunt with anything else. I simply don't like the looks of the new in-lines and think most of them are sold to people who have no interest in muzzleloading per se, but only want to take advantage of the special season. But wait! Isn't that why I got into muzzleloading? Sure is, so I don't think I can really throw rocks at these people. The problem as I see it, is that many special seasons started out as "primitive weapon" seasons, and as muzzleloaders become more user-friendly (in-line lovers please don't trash me over this-they are more user friendly!), more and more people start to question whether they are truly primitive. I think the in-lines are fine, but I'm not sure they belong in a primitive season- I would actually prefer to see more states with seasons like Pennsylvania's (is or was)- flintlock/roundball. | |||
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Quote: You see by the responses to my post just how right you are. Can't say I didn't tell you so. Yep, I'm avoiding the Bubbas, as advised... | |||
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Quote: Hobie,.... The "left-wing" modern inliners see nuthin wrong with ther use of "exaggerations"!!...... However, thet is a "tactic" we as traditional muzzleloaders cain't use in "good conscience"!! Nice "try" tho, but yore not nearly as "experienced" at use'n exaggerations, as some inliner's are!! | |||
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Who says "you cain't have yore cake and eat it too"?? http://www.prbullet.com/hornet.htm If this ain't a "modified centerfire",... I don't know "what" is!! | |||
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Here's more "cake"!! http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/ Be sure'n read the "products" part of the link!! Anyone wunna compare this to ther favorite "30-30"???? | |||
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Nothing I said was an exaggeration. At one end of the spectrum you have the modern in-line with scope and projectile/powder charge combination that exceeds the .30-30 in KE and is marketed for use to 250 yards. Buyers tend to believe it and do it with varying degrees of success. At the other end of the spectrum you have the flintlock smoothbore shooter who realizes he is not competent to shoot past 25 yards and does not. That is actually 10X the range so my comments were not an exaggeration. Only an ignorant person would have made the condescending, arrogant comments made. As you point out, this is typical of many (not all) of the users of these systems. Note how they then say that they have less range (75 yards) with their hopped up in-line than I have with my cap-lock RB/conical gun. But get them alone with their buddies or on another topic and they can do everything the marketeers say the guns will do. If I had Vermont's annual production of syrup I might be able to swallow all those waffles. Generalities are not conducive to reasoned discourse but the two sides (note I said two sides) neither avoid generalities nor wish to be reasonable. I don't know who it was that said that if you had to have it explained to you you'd never understand (maybe I'm paraphrasing Louis Armstrong?) but these guys don't get it or if they do they won't admit it. | |||
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Hobie,.... You "make sense" to me, and jest like you say,.. ther are "two ends" of the "extreme-range spectrum"!! 'Course the "inliner's" are ALWAYS play'n with "technology" and try'n to "EXTEND" the long-range portion of the spectrum!! (even when they are in "denial"!!) "SALUTE"!! | |||
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Quote: I agree 100% Hobie.......only rollingb cannot seem to help himself so we need to make some allowances. I'm proud to be at the cutting edge of the spectrum and could care less what road others choose. I limit my shots to about 180yds if necessary and have more energy at that point than most ML'ers have at 75 yds. Like I said earlier my state isn't a BP state its a ML'er state, and we all get along and enjoy ourselves and hunt. If it offends anybodies sensibilities or conscience get a grip. No move to change anything or take anybodies hunting privileges away and thats how it will remain. Don't get your buckskin underware in a bunch, cause I'm gonna keep right on inline hunting and supporting inlining and knowing how tight it gets some just makes it more important for me. Toby Bridges has managed to effect smokeless powder decisions in several states now to the betterment of us Savage smokeless hunters.....how many states you managed to get to change their laws? smokeless and lovin' it! Can ya say 2300-2500fps? I thought ya could woods | |||
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Quote: For the record, 75 yards is my self imposed limit with my Lyman GPR shooting a .530 roundball. I don't much care for ballistics data past that point. Also for the record, I have shot paper out to 200 yards with an inline. I was just seeing what my load for my extreme would drop out that far. What I saw both with the light wind and the drop convinced me not to try it on game. I saw some drift out to 150, but what there was did not take me out of a kill zone of 4" (again self imposed maximum). Any range I can keep them inside 4" with the wind is my maximum range. For light wind thats 150, as the wind speed increases my maximum range decreases. Quote: Actually I've said the same thing on inline forums. Only an expert can claim to be able to get the performance that manufacturers claim. I've heard claims of 200 yard kills with a muzzleloader, but am more inclined to belive it's an exageration. After all 200 sounds better than 150. Of course I can say no such thing. My longest kill was 35 yds with my shortest being 10 yds.  | |||
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[quote="Omega"]Hey King, You must feel the same limitation applies to centerfire rifles also. My inlines exceed the ballistic performance of many centerfire and still produce over 800 ft lb of energy at 400 yards. I shoot these rifles a lot and commonly shoot under 1 inch at 100 yards. I know exactly where that bullet is at any range and I see no reason why I can't shoot out to 400 yards if I want to. This may sound irresponsible to you but not nearly as bad as shooting a round ball at 100 yards sounds to me. Rich Woodseye,.... You mean "condescend'n and arrogant" comments like the one above from one of yore "fellow inline hunters"???? | |||
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Quote: WOW!!!!..... I rarely ever shot thet far at a critter with my scoped centerfires,.... and, this guy has friends thet do it with their "INLINES"!! | |||
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Quote: 1. Omega is more a professional than a casual shooter. He has a tv show or something like that (don't exactly recall what it was). Quote: 2. I have no idea who made the second quote, but 2000 shots is a lot of money even at the cheapest I have been able to go per shot ($0.50). Who ever said that has got either got some serious money, or is sponsored by ammunition companies. I'm lucky if I can afford to shoot 200 rounds or so per year. And that's with 5 muzzleloaders! | |||
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Quote:Quote: Now with the Hornady Lock'n'Load Speed Sabot one can have what is almost a caseless cartridge. Some have mentioned the obvious safety concern but you know that these will sell like hotcakes until there is an accident or two. Why, because there is an element, mostly (but maybe not all) in-line shooters, who are indeed seeking as near to a cartridge gun without leaving muzzleloading as is possible. An inveterate shooter, I'm as interested in the "newest" thing as much or more than the next fellow. As a practical hunter I know that I will seldom have an opportunity beyond 150 yards, more likely 50-75 yards, and often at less than 50 yards. I'm also experienced enough to know that this isn't the case everywhere in the US. One thing that bothers me is that there seems to be absolutely no appreciation for any aesthetic in hunting. Indeed there is a degree of hate for those who enjoy a hunting experience which is concerned with more than simply killing as many deer as possible. I personally believe that this attitude is counterproductive to maintaining hunting in the US. | |||
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Quote: Here is some some more of thet "expert's" post!! _____________________________________________________________________ I was in a moose camp last fall with two fellows shooting custom built .77 cals. It took 9 yep count'em 9 rb's to kill the bull. One particular outstanding shot at 40 yards was into the rear hip where the ball penetrated about 9 inches. The fellow was so firm in his belief of the miraculous round ball that he figured it was going to penetrate all the way through on that angle. That poor animal died a horrible pathetic death. The outfitter finally shot it over the hunters protest. I don't make judgments about how far other people should and what they should shoot. _____________________________________________________________________ This "Jim Shockey clone", actully wants us to believe thet he witnessed 2 fellas shoot a moose "9 times" with balls thet weigh 660grs. and they couldn't kill a moose at a range of "40 yards",... and the 660grn. ball was only penetrate'n "9 inchs"???? This "expert's" story jest sounds a liddle "TOO MUCH" like Shockey's "black bear story" for me to swaller. Besides I've "seen" the destructive power of a .75 cal. first hand and I cain't help but believe thet the bigger .77 cal. would be even "more awesome"!! I've kilt several Alaskan moose with my .58 cal. use'n roundball,... and all were "one shot kills"!! ..... so, I find "Bull-S#!t storys" like Omega's, real ennertain'n, to say the very least!!  I agree with you on NO. 2 However,... I "went thru" 90lbs.(+ or - a couple'a pounds) of .58 cal. and .62 cal. roundballs last year (spread out over at least 40 weekends, and with some rendezvous "thrown in"!!), and thet is "A LOT OF SHOOT'N"!!!! If I had'nt been cast'n my own balls,.... I couldn't of afforded to shoot thet much!!  | |||
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Wolf, at $.50 a shot, I hope you're getting grease with that! Maybeso my math is bad, but at $22/1000, I think that makes caps a skosh over 2 cents a piece. Now, I use a fair amount of powder cause I use a .58, generally 100 grains per shot, so that means 70 shots per pound. A pound of BP is about $11--just bought 25# so I know that's so. That works out to 15.7 cents a shot for powder, plus that 2+ cent cap we're right at $.18 per shot. Where did the other $.32 come from? I still think a major point on this in-line muzzle gun deal is the special seasons and the discontent from CF shooters, not the traditional BP shooters. The CF shooters aren't blind and they see those tags going to guys shooting in what was intended to be a very low percentage season, but now guys are hunting in it with guns that rival their CF guns and they don't like it. They are the ones that are going to fight the special season. A state issues the deer tags based on the number of deer they want killed each year. It really has nothing to do with how many people would like to have a tag; it is how many deer the G&F biologists figure can be harvested. When the percentage success in the BP season goes way up, then the number of deer that can be killed in the CF season is reduced, and that then means fewer CF tags, which of course means more people with no tag. Think they (the CF boys) don't see that and know it's the in-line shooters and the modern technology that has raised the kill percent, hence lowered the number of CF tags? Of course they do and there is going to be more and more resistance to the special season for BP because of it. The loosers will be the traditional BP shooters. The states that are holding to restrictions against optical sights, against in-line ignition, against shotgun primer ignition, etc., are the states that won't receive the the resistance from the CF boys. Tags are just too valuable and hard to come by for it to be ignored when the BP season success goes so high that it adversly effects the CF season, i.e. the number of CF tags. | |||
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Quote: Arts,... in all fairness I think Wolfhound was be'n quite consevative in his "0.50 per shot" statement, 'cause I think he was talk'n 'bout saboted bullets. I jest looked in Cabela's "shooting" catalog, and they offer the Knight .50cal. 300gr. "Red Hot Sabots" at $16.99 per ("10"),..... thet's $1.70 "APIECE", or,... "per shot" not count'n "powder" and "caps"!!!!! I totaly agree with the remainder of yore post, and I have often wondered "what" the CF fellas over on the "big Game" board would have to say if they were approached with the "scenerio" thet you mention!! | |||
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Why not go over and find out? Show more than just the members on this board what a confused fella you really are? I'm not loosing any sleep over any ML'ing seasons changing or becoming anti inliner either. If anybody stands to loose its the traditionalists.........I greatly value my hunting experience and find any that take some "moral highground" to a special or better experience are merely doing a great job of splintering the ML'er forums and hunting itself. Inliners are going nowhere and are here to stay......like it or not. woods | |||
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Quote: I've got 5 muzzleloaders and that's a rough average of them all. My cheapest to shoot is my GPR, and my most expensive my Knight Extreme. My most expensive is my Knight at 70 cents/shot and my cheapest is my GPR at .35 per shot. | |||
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Wolf, I'm not argueing or disagreeing with you, just asking. Why does my .58 with 100 grs powder only cost me $.18, but yours so much more? | |||
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Sam Fadala documented a American Bison kill using the .54 RB. I believe he had side to side penetration. 12 bore cartridge guns used hardened or hard cast RB for other large creatures. Whence that ball comes is of no concern all other factors such as velocity, weight, etc. being the same. It is this sort of out and out lying by certain members of both factions that has radicalized the discussion and made it impossible to have a dialog that will result in positive improvements. We need improvements in both game management and accomodations for niche hunters (or maybe you should just be able to buy X number of tags per year and meet certain minimum conditions to avoid large numbers of crippled and lost game.). | |||
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I'm shooting 777 FFG powder and buying precut/prelubed patches and then roundballs. I have to order the roundballs and patches. No one carries stuff for a 54 cal around here. | |||
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Quote: Agreed both sides can and do lie......but there will NEVER be any sort of dialog as long as traditionalists refuse to tolerate inliners in "their" season. Time alone will solve this slowly but surely as the inliners become more and more the dominate force in ML'ing as is happening a little more each year. No compromise on the horizon only intolerance on the part of traditionalists. woods | |||
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Agreed both sides can and do lie......but there will NEVER be any sort of dialog as long as traditionalists refuse to tolerate inliners in "their" season. Time alone will solve this slowly but surely as the inliners become more and more the dominate force in ML'ing as is happening a little more each year. No compromise on the horizon only intolerance on the part of traditionalists. woods Hey woods!!.... I'd sure like to know, "what in tha hell" inliner's have ever DONE for the traditionalists,.... to "warrant" ANY "tolerance"??????? Conservative-traditionalists "owe" the liberal-inliners, absolutely "nuthin"!!.... and thet's exactly "what" some of us are will'n to give'em!! The damned modern liberal-welfare-mentality of inliners,.... allows them to think, thet they should "git sumpthin, fer nuthin",... when it involves a muzzleloader season traditionalist's worked for!!!! Inlines ain't nuthin but,... a "cancer" on the pure-sport of "muzzleload'n"!! Inlines are "proof" thet,..... some modern-day hunters ain't of the same "quality",... ther "ancestors" were!! My wife, and daughter, both "hunt" with traditional-muzzleloaders,.... and I have more "RESPECT" for them as "hunters",..... then I do, for ANY "idjit" use'n a inline!! How's THET for "compromise'n dialog",..... you "babble'n high-tech/sumpthin-for-nuthin freak"????? | |||
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I suppose if you're buying balls the price obviously would go up. I just never considered that, as I and everyone I know casts them and cuts our own patches. But I see your point. Does that mean that balls cost about $.30 a piece? Haven't priced that powder, perhaps it's real expensive. I use Goex. | |||
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Hmmmmmm........Poor RB.....I try to not maintain dialog with people of your rather limited mentality so you get the ignore button and I continue to cause people like yourself lots of headaches with my smokeless inlines and current cutting edge ML'er techniques.. All I hear is.....Whaaaaaaaaa.......whaaaaaaaa....guess we need to call ya the whaaaaambulance  No sense talking back and forth with you, as you have nothing of consquence to bring to the table but empty statements and foolishness. I never match wits with an unarmed man. Seeya!woods | |||
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Mr. Woodseye, I'm curious as to why you've not chosen to respond to my comments, and I don't mean in an argumentive, but a discussionary way. Also, if, just in case if, the muzzleloader season were to be eliminated, would you go back to deer hunting with CF? (I admit that is an assumption that you hunted CF before you went to muzzle loader). Or would you drop deer hunting altogether? I guess a third alternative would be to pick up archery hunting. | |||
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Woods,.... I fully expected such a "reply", from a fella caught "infringe'n on the efforts of others"!! "Snivel'n inliners" should go back to centerfires if they don't "like hear'n a man's honest opinion",.... and, as far as "headaches" are concerned, I'll continue to be one for you'n yore "fake muzzleloader", as long as I'm able to "draw a breath", and/or, "punch a key-board"!!!! "toodles"!! | |||
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Mr.Arts.....I have respect for you as a poster and don't respond much to your posts simply because we are in such radically different parts of the country that very little applies to both our situations. I will however try to explain why your situation doesn't apply to mine at all. I have hunted deer 40 years and would hunt deer with a slingshot if it was the only way I could hunt them. Now my state allows ONE deer to be killed by whatever method you choose, a one month long bow season leads the way....if you don't get a deer, a one month long CF season follows. If you still don't have a deer, than there is a two week ML'er season after the bow and CF season that you can hunt. We have a bucks only season with a limited number of doe tags given out free but other than that its bucks only and you can't buy any tags period. Our hunting success rate is about 10% and up to 20% with one of the doe tags. No tags available for different hunting methods and as soon as you shoot a deer its over. I usually get a deer in the CF season and only hunt ML'er if I haven't shot a deer by then. Yes I hunt CF as first choice and yes I ML'er hunt if needed. Our season wasn't started by traditionalists or BP hunters (it was started with feedback from all style ML'ers and therefore doesn't exclude or attempt to exclude any.....never has and never will) and it has always been open to inline, sabots, scopes, and smokeless powder from day one and will continue as we get along up here and don't have these exclusionary views. The traditionalists know they didn't start the season so they don't think they "own" it like posters on here do. We have fun and hunt as we want, not according to how "others" may feel we need to. ML'er season up here accounts for just over a 1000 deer and our deer kill runs about 28,000-35,000 total so this ML'er season is a drop in the bucket compared to bow and CF hunters. I smile when I read suggestions about CF hunters getting mad about us shooting less than 5% of the kill after they are done and the rut is over. So I hope you can see this whole traditional vs inliner thing don't happen up here and we simply have a last two week opportunity to shoot one with a ML'er of any design. Its a ML'er season, and it simply has to load from the muzzle.......a pretty simple concept. If you love ML'ers and simply want to hunt with one instead of a CF you can hunt the CF season and ML'er season with a ML'er. So not counting special urban bow seasons for special harvests inside town limits, we have 10 weeks of deer season..... 4 with a bow in October.....4 with a CF in November....and 2 with a Ml'er of any kind in December. I have ML'er hunted when possible(if I haven't already shoot my deer) for the last 10 years. I hope this answers your questions and allows you to see that our season is in no danger of being outlawed and our CF hunters have no gripe with the ML'ers or ML'er season, heck some of them take part in the ML'er season as well. In fact we have a rather nice ML'ing season with few hunters willing to brave our winter which is setting in rather hard by Dec. and the temps are plummeting along with snow and the deer herd is spooked and pretty much out of rut. In my years hunting up here in ML'er season I have never met a traditional style hunter and only ever met one hunter that was hunting with a sidehammer style ML'er. We got about 6 million acres to hunt in and a few thousand ML'er hunters aren't going to crowd each other ever. Everyone I meet are using break-opens, Omegas, or other inlines to this point.........not many buckskinners in my neck of the woods I guess, although they would be treated with respect just like any other style ML'er hunter would be........just no more or no less. Boy is that ignore button great! Have a good one woods | |||
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Oh and big congrats on spelling "disingenuous" correctly. All too often the fancy words people use are spelled comically wrong. (<--smartass, BTW)