The state of Wi.DNR wants to have the use of Scopes on Muzzleloaders.The Wi.State Muzzle Loaders Assoc. is the ones who want it to stay iron sights.The truth is that the herd in Wi. is out of controll.That is why the State wants to allow the use of scopes.But these(Buckskinners)who think they are Mountain Men are crying the blues.I have never understood the intellegence of someone who resists change only because they dont want to.When the resource is not at risk,why worry about the way someone else Hunts.
By the way ,wanting to Hunt the same as someone else is not an Entitlement.It is guaranteed under The Constitution and Bill of Rights.There are no Kings here!!!!!!!!!

Watch out.....you'll be labeled as an easterner and as such you can have no understanding of unsubstantiated and exaggerated posts concerning ML'ers

I want to say guy's listen for a minute. Our western Deer (muledeer) are in trouble in most of their home range. Also at the same time habitat is only getting worse. We CAN'T afford a increase in success. I understand that the whitetails are on the boom. Mulies are not doing well. Here in Idaho we have many programs trying to help mulies rebound. The fact is like I said before. If scopes are allowed tags will decrease, maybe to the point of not having a ML hunt.
BTW, did any of you click the links I gave. They are saying 500 yard kills on elk are being done with a ML.
OLBIKER, where in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, does it say anything about you hunting in a muzzleloader hunt with a inline?
Ron

If it's legal, then it's fine. Controlling how you do it.. why, they'll be complaining about brass cases and primers next.. i mean, how can someone seriously call themselves a mountain man if they don't use a matchlock?
jeffe

Ron, they obviously did not click on the links I gave.... And if they do click on our links then they will never believe or understand the content. They can't comprehend the differences between Mule Deer or Whitetails. It has nothing to do with elitist views, but everything with OPPORTUNITY to hunt.

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by bowhuntrrl:
First of all, let me state that I've been hunting with muzzleloaders for at least the past 35 years. As equipment has evolved, so have I and now I own a modern inline. I hate to see this elitist BS from the Traditional Muzzleloading fraternity. It is self serving and only hinders the sport. It is what the anti hunters love to see. Shortly after I turned 40, my eyesight began to go downhill. Sure, it may be correctable to 20/20, but that isn't the whole story. The problem lies with focus up close, as in iron sights. The eyes will not focus on the sights at all, they are just a blur. My only cure is a scope. The fact of the matter is that even the new modern inlines are limited in range to 200 yards or less. Some will claim 250, but that shot would be few and far between. The new muzzleloaders have increased the amount of people interested in shooting and that is a good thing. You can take the best gun in the world and give it to a bad hunter and he still won't be successful. Equipment isn't the final answer to hunting success. I was all for this law, but the fact of the matter is that I read that it was defeated. I would like to know where the poster who started this thread got his information.

As far as some of the other comments above as in aids for handicapped hunters, some of you guys need to grow up !!! Maybe someday you too might need aid and given the choice of giving up hunting or taking advantage of a special regulation so that you might continue to hunt, what would you do ???

If this is true (which I doubt), the states with the limitations should just overturn the no scope rules. What's fair for one should be fair for all.

I agree with bowhuntrrl, as we get older it is nice to know we can still hunt. I would hate to see they day when I can no longer hunt because of some screwed up law you above all hunters would impose on hunters with the misfortune of bad eye sight or other physical limitation.

MC, i read your links and i have a question. i'm sure centerfire season has a higher bag since more people hunt with those than muzzleloaders. does UT have 'X' amount of tags for a certain unit? as an example:do they allocate 1000 rifle tags, 1000 Muzzleloader tags, and 1000 archery tags for a unit? are they limiting the tag #'s across the board in the units in trouble regardless of weapon choice? just curious.

I have to comment on the long range archery kills. Everyone today is using super light arrows and tiny broadheads. Penetration at 20 yd's is HORRIBLE. More deer are being lost. I find a lot of deer that I shoot in gun season have short pieces of arrows in them. Most measure 6" with those little, light broadheads.
There is only one thing that makes an arrow penetrate and that is arrow weight. The only thing that kills is a big, wide, long broadhead on a heavy arrow. The trajectory of a proper arrow is very bad but can kill at extended range. The trajectory of a light arrow is better but it has no killing power at all at long range. I don't trust them at 10 yd's and to say animals are being killed with them at 100 yd's is folly. There is not enough sight room on a bow to get 100 yd settings and it would take a super archer to hit anything that far. Maybe 1 in 100,000 archers could do it but the toothpicks being shot will not penetrate deep enough for reliable death.
Time of flight for an arrow means the animal can move a long way before an arrow even gets there.
Bows have NOT become magic killing machines!
Neither has the muzzle loader.

admiral, I don't know about UT but in Idaho the ML hunts are "newer" than the CFR and Bow. Bow tags are for the most part across the counter. There are rifle tags across the counter, but if you want a chance at a 160 plus mule deer you will need to draw. Our CFR draw hunts are well established. The muzzleloader tags are unique at least here in southern Id. We have a revolving set of units to draw in. So last year the draw was in units A and B next year it will be in C and D the next year it will be in E and F. The next year it will be back in A and B. The F&G thought they could allow some opportunity if the success was low enough. Well the Success was as high as the CFR hunts. So in came Traditional hunts. These had side lock rifles and round balls. The F&G came back and said the round balls were wounding too many animals so they allow conicals.
Last years hunt even though it was traditional success was still very high . So inlines are not to blame there. Determined men with a good tag were to blame. I was one of them.
So when you look at it as a game manager they are saying the harvest is too high. They are not going to cut rifles because they are a big money maker, same with bows. So who gets cut if there is a problem? The 150 ML tags. If you top that with some ML hunters wanting scopes, primers, Smokeless powder and so on it is easy to see where the cuts will be.
I don't understand when guys like Redhawk1 say "as we get older it is nice to know we can still hunt. I would hate to see they day when I can no longer hunt because of some screwed up law you above all hunters would impose on hunters with the misfortune of bad eye sight or other physical limitation." You have rifles seasons! No one is asking you to quit! Here in Idaho you can still use the inlines and the sabots. You just have to do it in the general rifle hunts.
bfrshooter, I used to be a high level competitor at 3D archery here in Southern Id. I was one of the best, and my daughter was the best in her age group. That was over 10 years ago. Even way back then the clubs were shooting targets at 100 yards and farther at times. No I didn't have a hard time getting my sights to go that far. Most of us used a single adjustable pin. My daughter won the state 3D championship when she was 6 and 7. She could shoot out to 40 yards with her gear.
I am not going to say that a bunch of animals are being killed over 100 yards. But I know for a fact a lot of guys now days are not backing off a 80 yard shot. After a work related accident I can no longer shoot a bow, and haven't bow hunted in almost 10 years. Maybe I should see if I can use a rifle in a bow hunt. You know I don't want anyone taking away my right to hunt the way I want to since I am disabled. Ron

Idaho Ron, well let me tell you why I say that. I have seen where older hunter's are no longer hunting because of physical conditions and poor eye sight. I have seen where other hunter's think it is a pain in the ass to take them out.

Then we have guys that say, they don't want 4 wheelers in the woods, but they over look that there are some guys & gals that still have the desire to hunt but can't because of the disability.
I am not saying or even insinuating they should have special privilege, but if a guy cannot draw a bow back because of an accident or disability, he should be able to take a crossbow or another bow with a device that will enable him to bow hunt. I live in Delaware and as long as you have a medical condition that does not allow you to pull a bow back and you have a written doctors excuse you can use a crossbow. It is little things like that, which keep out older and disabled hunters in the woods.

I never said people should get to use a gun in bow season. I myself want to see older hunter having fun at the sport they grew up with. And yes I help an elderly lady out to the woods every year to go deer hunting, and she uses a crossbow because she cannot draw a bow back. She has had a stroke and a number of other health issues that don't allow her to walk in the woods, so I take her on a 4 wheeler to get her into the woods. My joy is how much she loves to be in the woods doing what she has done for ages, and yes she kills deer almost every year. Our goal is for her to take a deer every year. She lives for hunting.
So if a scope is going to help someone with bad eye sight so what.
Sorry to hear you had an accident and are no longer able to bow hunt, but a crossbow is an option if your State and your physical abilities allow it.

Off my soap box.

Has anyone figured out what velocity and muzzle energy a typical ML'er projectile being fired at 2000-2100fps muzzle, has at 300yds? how about 400yds? Don't matter if you adjust your sites for the rainbow trajectory, wind, and animal position......does it still have energy levels you are comfortable with for dropping a deer.....much less an elk? I mean for clean kills.....what kind of BC does these projectiles have? We aren't talking punching holes in paper here....but vitals.....

Dave

MC, what did I miss?

1 - Quote MC: "There was a recent ruling on a lawsuit brought by a muzzleloading organization concerning the use of scopes."

2 - Quote MC link: "The last issue is relative to scopes on muzzleloaders. This has been a hot topic in the RACs when it has been discussed in the past. The word from the FWS is to make accommodation for visually impaired people and the use of scopes on muzzleloaders. We have come up with two options, one would be a note from a doctor for handicapped people and the other is to allow scopes for everyone. We have already made many accommodations for muzzleloader hunters with special hunts and seasons to hunt big game animals. We will take this to the RACs and propose that we deal with it the way we do with other situations for handicapped people."

"lawsuit by muzzleloading organization" ?? Which organization and what lawsuit?

ruling?? What ruling?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
I want to say guy's listen for a minute. Our western Deer (muledeer) are in trouble in most of their home range. Also at the same time habitat is only getting worse. We CAN'T afford a increase in success. I understand that the whitetails are on the boom. Mulies are not doing well. Here in Idaho we have many programs trying to help mulies rebound. The fact is like I said before. If scopes are allowed tags will decrease, maybe to the point of not having a ML hunt.
BTW, did any of you click the links I gave. They are saying 500 yard kills on elk are being done with a ML.
OLBIKER, where in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, does it say anything about you hunting in a muzzleloader hunt with a inline?
Ron

Well inline muzzleloaders are nothing new.Been around for about 200 years.Scopes on muzzle loaders are not new either,They were used with great success in the Civil War by both sides. I am referring to (All Men being Created Equal).If you have a restricted no. of tags to begin with,what is the difference how the Animal is harvested?????If too many are harvested limit the tags.(No Brainer) Ya cant have yer live deer an eat it!!!!!!

I am going to repeat for you OLBIKER, your desire to hunt any way you want is not protected by Constitution and Bill of Rights. Never was and never will be.
Yes all men (here in the USA) are created equal. But we are not all really equal now are we. Some are better looking, Some have more money, some can't talk (like my uncle) some can't hear (like my uncle) Some can't walk, run, or even swim. Like REDHAWK 1, I took my dad hunting with 4 wheelers. But we have strict laws about not using them off road. We NEVER applied to have the "right" to take them off road. He still had great times, and we followed the laws, and he got deer.
While we were "created" equal, in most cases we are not equal. No matter how good you are at something someone is better. So in reality we are not equal, but we don't need the government to step in and try to make us equal. We all have our own disabilities. We have to find our own way to do things within the laws That are given to us.
To complain to the government or a state F&G Dept, to change laws so we can do things different, is using the disability as a way to gain the upper hand.
Kind of like the guy that parks in the handicap parking space and walks perfect. He has the sticker for his wife but uses it when she is not with him. I know this happens because I know a guy like this.
Another guy I know takes his dad hunting on a 4 wheeler. The dad has the handicap hunting license because he is old, but the son drives him to areas where the son wants to hunt, and is too lazy to walk. When they get there the dad waits at the 4 wheeler and the son goes hunting. They are using a disability to gain the upper hand, in this case it is against the animals. If he had to walk there the son would never hunt there because it is too far to walk for him, but he doesn't want to walk there because he is lazy not disabled.
If a guy needs a scope, use it in the rifle season. Why not just use the 06 in a rifle hunt? Using a ML is a disability in it's self, so why not use a 06 in a rifle hunt?
The fact is that most ML hunts are held in great units, better times of the year, like the rut, and the ML seasons in a lot of cases are better odds of success or draw, because of the way the hunt is set up. People want a better deal and most of the time they want the better deal their own way.
It is simple, if you have to use a scope because you can't see use it in the any weapon hunt.

OLBIKER, I guess you just don't understand the western draw system. We have any weapon hunts. You can use about anything on these hunts even a spear. On special bow draw tags, and Muzzleloader tags you have to hunt with that weapon, and the equipment that the state allows. No you can't use a bow in a ML hunt or a ML in a bow hunt. Yes they issue a tag to the hunter but they MUST follow the rules of the HUNT. Even if it is a traditional muzzleloader hunt.
We also have super tags. You can hunt anywhere in the state any time you want, as long as a hunt is taking place, and as long as you hunt within the rules of the unit. One super tag holder shot a MONSTER deer in a ML hunt with a regular rifle. He was busted for the poaching scum he was. He was being guided by a scum that helped him to cheat the system. He also made the argument that he was issued a tag to get a deer. How he gets that deer should be no one else's business. he lost the deer of a life time because it was taken by the state.

12FVSS260, Yes I have figured out my energy levels on my Muzzleloaders.
My 50 cal uses Hornady great plains bullets. The BC on them is .205 the speed is 1500 FPS. At 300 yards this load has 908 foot pounds of energy. At 400 yards it has 779 FPE.
My 45 shoots a 459-405-HB bullet weighing 385 gr. This bullet has a BC of .250 and speed is 1500 FPS. The 300 yard FPE is 940 foot pounds of energy at 400 yards it has 812 FPE.
To put that into perspective. My 50 has more energy at 650 yards than a round ball has at 50 yards! A lot of guys shoot elk with a round ball at 50 yards.
My 45 has more energy at 300 yards than a 50 cal round ball has at the muzzle. it has the same energy at 725 yards as the 50 cal round ball has at 50 yards.
Have a good Christmas guys. Ron

Ron, those are some great points. Far more eloquent than mine. I have seen your posts over the past 10+ years and you show sportsmanship.

Maine, Missouri, West Virginia, Florida, Texas, Wisconson, Delaware, etc. I really do not care what your states allow you to use for deer. You have a species which can sustain harvest, on an almost unlimited hunting basis in many cases. So argue away. It won't change the facts of WHY most western states have primitive weapon hunts. It was supposed to be a low success endeavor, but technology has pushed these hunts to negatively impact the resource. As such, many states are reducing the muzzleloading opportunity. That is the point of my post and the facts which lie ahead of myself and hunters like Ron. WE will loose opportunity.

There are lines drawn in the sand to regulate our hunting. What some of you suggest is that we blurr or erase those lines. Hunting survived before us because the older generation passed it on to the younger generation. Now as the selfish entitlement mentality of our society creeps into the hunting venue, can hunting be passed on to those who will come after? Under the entitlement viewpoint, the answer in most WESTERN states is no. Our game herds at present are too fragile, too suseptible to pressure. An ATV in the woods of West Virginia is much different than an ATV driving sage draws in Western Wyoming. 20x scopes in the swamp of Florida or the brush country of Texas will have a MUCH DIFFERENT effect than in the high country of Colorado.

This will be my last post on this subject. This ruling may not have a negative impact on your hunting in your states. I believe it will in mine. That is why I posted it. If you are a muzzleloader enthusiast and wish to draw a tag in the West to hunt deer or elk then your opportunities may also decrease. That is all.

Again, Best Wishes to Everyone. Merry Christmas and successful New Year.

quote:

My 45 has more energy at 300 yards than a 50 cal round ball has at the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
Ron, those are some great points. Far more eloquent than mine. I have seen your posts over the past 10+ years and you show sportsmanship.

Maine, Missouri, West Virginia, Florida, Texas, Wisconson, Delaware, etc. I really do not care what your states allow you to use for deer. You have a species which can sustain harvest, on an almost unlimited hunting basis in many cases. So argue away. It won't change the facts of WHY most western states have primitive weapon hunts. It was supposed to be a low success endeavor, but technology has pushed these hunts to negatively impact the resource. As such, many states are reducing the muzzleloading opportunity. That is the point of my post and the facts which lie ahead of myself and hunters like Ron. WE will loose opportunity.

There are lines drawn in the sand to regulate our hunting. What some of you suggest is that we blurr or erase those lines. Hunting survived before us because the older generation passed it on to the younger generation. Now as the selfish entitlement mentality of our society creeps into the hunting venue, can hunting be passed on to those who will come after? Under the entitlement viewpoint, the answer in most WESTERN states is no. Our game herds at present are too fragile, too suseptible to pressure. An ATV in the woods of West Virginia is much different than an ATV driving sage draws in Western Wyoming. 20x scopes in the swamp of Florida or the brush country of Texas will have a MUCH DIFFERENT effect than in the high country of Colorado.

This will be my last post on this subject. This ruling may not have a negative impact on your hunting in your states. I believe it will in mine. That is why I posted it. If you are a muzzleloader enthusiast and wish to draw a tag in the West to hunt deer or elk then your opportunities may also decrease. That is all.

Again, Best Wishes to Everyone. Merry Christmas and successful New Year.

Ron I understand what you are saying.I think you are jumping off the deep end.You have no idea what will happen if this is true.We are talking about two differnt things .This would affect my Home State in a positive way.We have way too many Fricken Deer.By the time totals for the year are posted over 500,000 Deer will have been shot and that is not near enough.Its damn scary riding your bike at night in the Summer here.I dont believe that this is real to begin with ,as no one has presented anything factual.Tell you the truth I dont care how you hunt in Idaho.Use Whammos if thats what trips your trigger.I want to use a Scope here.i dont care about being a traditionalist Muzzleloader hunter.I care about having more time in the Woods period.You and your family have a nice Christmas. OB

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Idaho Ron, well let me tell you why I say that. I have seen where older hunter's are no longer hunting because of physical conditions and poor eye sight. I have seen where other hunter's think it is a pain in the ass to take them out.

Off my soap box.

Redhawk, I have to agree with everything you said and applaud your help of that old gal to continue hunting. However (you knew there was one of those coming I would draw the line at 4 wheelers. IMO, those things encroach on the enjoyment of others in the woods, whereas none of the other accomodations for handicaps do. I say ride a horse or mule in if you can't walk, but no @#$%* 3/4 wheelers or dirt bikes should be allowed in the woods during hunting season. At least not on land open to the public.

brayhaven, where we hunt it is all private land. My buddy owns 40 plus Acers that butts up to another one of his friends that has several hundred Acers. Also we have established trails for 4 wheeler use. No running all over the woods is allowed.

OLD Guy, I did make a mistake. What I meat to say was my 45 has the same energe at 300 yards as the round ball has at 50 yards. here are the ballistics on them. As you can see they are for the most part the same.
Ron
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/?acti...rent=Energyphoto.jpg


http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/?acti...ent=Energyphoto2.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
Has anyone figured out what velocity and muzzle energy a typical ML'er projectile being fired at 2000-2100fps muzzle, has at 300yds? how about 400yds? Don't matter if you adjust your sites for the rainbow trajectory, wind, and animal position......does it still have energy levels you are comfortable with for dropping a deer.....much less an elk? I mean for clean kills.....what kind of BC does these projectiles have? We aren't talking punching holes in paper here....but vitals.....

Dave

Well at the risk of more flames, I will say it's irresponsible to lob ML projectiles at big game at those ranges. Even if the paper calcualtions say there's enough energy. You can even practice at known ranges from a bench & get somewhat decent accuracy, but hunting is much different.
With unknown ranges (trajectories) (even with rangefinders) from that sighted in, you are using hold over guestimates, rainbow bullet travel guestimates, altitude differences (from sight in, terrain angle differences, etc etc. Then, factor in the fatigue of hunting, climbing, stalk, shaky rest (if any), excitement of the hunt... on & on... What you wind up with is a lot of wounded game that wanders off, to die slowly of blood poisoning, gangrene or peritonitis. If you can't put that round in a 2" square under the conditions, don't take the shot.. period. That means <100 yds for most, with a ML. It certainly does for me & I compete in at least 2 ML matches a month & take home my share of the hardware.
Just my dos centavos.

You want to hunt the King's animals on the King's land? Gotta play by his rules. As society goes to hell in a hand basket, did you really expect game and fish laws to be somehow immune?

Ok, I after reading all of this guess i have some random thoughts....

So far, there is no "ruling" and no "lawsuit" that I have found anywhere. All it said was they needed to make suggestions and plans. Those could be like the crossbow regulations with doctor's statements. So from that perspective, there is a Chicken Little running around saying "the sky is falling"

There is also someone saying "if you are old and can not see well enough to hunt the way I want you to, then quit. Well, back at you. If you can't stand for someone to be able to hunt differently than you because of a disability and the tags get lowered, then quit hunting.

Then there is the issues of ML scope hunting and Mule Deer management that have been somehow screwed into the same subject. If the Mule Deer populations are not high enough, then the State should have the guts to stop hunting them until they rebound, or limit tags to a sustainable number, regardless of the weapon type. I know this will never happen until they are on the endangered list because of the nomey involved, but guts never is easy. Sort of like the stupid antler restrictions. If more does need to be shot, require them to be shot before issuing the buck tags...have some guts. If Mule Deer are in such trouble, then why would anyone hunt them, unless they are really not in bad enough shape to stop?

Finally, to really stir the pot.....300 yard ML shots is a lot like head shots on deer, is it a stunt, or is it "hunting"?

BTW, I never did weigh in on the headshot thingy.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Ok, I after reading all of this guess i have some random thoughts....

So far, there is no "ruling" and no "lawsuit" that I have found anywhere. All it said was they needed to make suggestions and plans. Those could be like the crossbow regulations with doctor's statements. So from that perspective, there is a Chicken Little running around saying "the sky is falling"

There is also someone saying "if you are old and can not see well enough to hunt the way I want you to, then quit. Well, back at you. If you can't stand for someone to be able to hunt differently than you because of a disability and the tags get lowered, then quit hunting.

Then there is the issues of ML scope hunting and Mule Deer management that have been somehow screwed into the same subject. If the Mule Deer populations are not high enough, then the State should have the guts to stop hunting them until they rebound, or limit tags to a sustainable number, regardless of the weapon type. I know this will never happen until they are on the endangered list because of the nomey involved, but guts never is easy. Sort of like the stupid antler restrictions. If more does need to be shot, require them to be shot before issuing the buck tags...have some guts. If Mule Deer are in such trouble, then why would anyone hunt them, unless they are really not in bad enough shape to stop?

Finally, to really stir the pot.....300 yard ML shots is a lot like head shots on deer, is it a stunt, or is it "hunting"?

BTW, I never did weigh in on the headshot thingy.

Thank you Larry.Very well put!!!!!

I hunt with muzzleloader in Kansas--because as a non-resident that is virtually the only license it is possible to draw.

Kansas has compromised on the iron sights/scope issue by making the early muzzie season iron/open sights only and allowing the use of scoped ML'ers in the late season. If you don't tag out in September with the open rifle you have another chance in December along with the center-fire hunters.

While this may not be acceptable to the purists, it may be a way around having to compete with scoped rifles in the "primitive" seasons.

My uncorrected vison is 20-200. Even with trifocals I am unable to accurately gauge iron sights. (red dots are a happier story) Scopes are not a problem.

And just to add fuel to the fire, while I enjoy the benefits of using a scoped inline--I would never attempt a shot with it at over 150 yards.

MC, I don't think you need to worry about the Utah DWR stopping the Muzzle Loader Season. They wont take the cut in $$$. I am 61, have poor eyesight, and can't focos at the three planes needed for regular open sights but I can shoot a peep sight just fine. Thats what is on my muzzle loader. I am sure there are some who will take 400 yard shots. There are some who do it now. The same people will put on a big scope and take the same shots. DW

My point all along was about mule deer management, and loss of opportunity for us in western states. My stand from the very start was not about the buckskin way of life. If anyone has ever read any of my ML posts or seen any of my pictures I am NOT a buckskinner. I am a big game hunter. I like the seasons that the F&G hold for Traditional ML's. I also like to build the most accurate rifles and bullets possible for those traditional hunts. It helps me to get away from the BS of every day life.
Id F&G commissioners and regional F&G managers told me that if technology was not kept in check, they would have to reduce opportunity.
I can appreciate that many of you live in areas that are over run with whitetails. I wish we had such a problem. But when we try to enforce laws across the land we find that those laws often don't work in all areas. I can appreciate that high hunter harvest is needed across most of the whitetail range. Mule deer are struggling in MOST of their range. Yes we do have small areas that are hunted harder to help winter range. For the most part a 30" mule deer is the holy grail of deer hunting. Those deer are getting harder and harder to get every year. Game departments are being pressured to increase the size, tag number, and population of mule deer. They have a hard task doing everything. Here in Idaho we are in a fight right now about ML's. The northern part of the state wants inlines, and all the technology they can get to hunt whitetails. The F&G managers can't take an increase in mule deer harvest. There will be a clash this year. If the traditional rule is reversed and inlines, scopes and Sabots are allowed, we WILL lose opportunity for mule deer. You can count on that. Ron

I am all for scopes on muzzleloaders.I quit using my 18 muzzleloaders due to my eyesite.I got to where I could only shoot 25 yards with any iron sited gun.I cheered when I finally got to use my scope on my .54 caliber marlin.I shot .5" groups with my scope and 325 gr Speer saboted bullets.It did allow me to shoot alot further but really didnt increase the range of my gun.I know alout of people who also quit hunting with muzzleloaders for the same reason.
I also liked when crossbows became legal.I have a torn rotator cuff that stopped me from shooting my bows any more.Things I dont want to see with technology caseless ammo fired eletroncially in muzzleloaders.We are heaed that way.I see muzzleloders being used in alot of places it it not safe to use centerfire rifles.I loved my scoped muzzleloader.I hope it becomes legal in all states.

So you want it in all states. What if that means some of us won't get to hunt with a ML? As long as your happy that is really all that matters. Ron

What this post has proven to me is that one poster can start a thread full of claims that all ML'ers are about to be effected and makes mention of groups and rulings that after two pages of posts and being asked multiple times to support these claims nothing has been proven beyond some minutes of a meeting in one state. No proof just a bunch of claims.

Than the post is used to tell everyone about how this will effect ML'er hunting in this same state. Not to mention a bunch of claims of incredible long distance ML'er and bow shots supported by....you guessed it.....more claims. Well I don't see enough energy to make these shots....and don't see what thats got to do with some scope ruling.....you're already shooting past what scoped shooters I know of are, so whats the big deal? Yeah I'm from the east.....already heard your take on that......but hey I didn't start a thread to complain about killing too many mule deer did I? Let your F&W boys sort that out and you guys go ahead and keep making your 300-400yd shots.

I agree with the majority of the posters and from my first post have said why alienate shooters as they get older and their eye sight fails so you can guide and continue to shoot crazy distances at your mule deer that are getting depleted? This entire thread just makes so little sense aiming it at the rest of the ML'ing states like its something they need to help YOU stop.Fight with your own residents that want to use scopes......it doesn't effect states that already allow scopes now does it?

Dave

I gave you links about people shooting out to 500 yards with ML's for elk 300 yars for antelope, and african game.
I gave energy charts that show all you want to know.
You know I have tried to explain there is more than one side of this. I quit, You guys can't see any farther than your own selfishness. None of you care about how technology affects the animals at all. All you care about is Poor me I can't see, or poor me I need a 4 wheeler because I can't walk.
Like I said I am quitting this thread because you only see one side. So use your inlines, scopes, Sabots. Bring them into your stand with corn and rolled oats. Shoot the hell hout of them and call it hunting. You guys are the best. Ron

Yeah I hear ya....all you care about is poor me the mule deer are not sustaining......

500 yd elk shots with a ML'er are unethical and downright foolish to talk about....

Where I hunt we have always used inlines, scopes, and sabots.....and you know something? Nobodys bragging about 400-500yd shots!

We don't shoot over bait up here, couple million acres of woods to hunt deer where they live. They aren't failing to sustain either....

Scopes are the least of your worries....I'd worry about the stunt shooters.....

I can't wait for some of you guys to get old and have your eyes start to fail. Also lysic eye surgery only correct near sightedness. I does not let you see the sights. I have to use a specila contact lens in my right eye to shoot my bow. Plus once we went to inline ML who cares. Theyshould have kept the ML a primative season like PA still does have. During the inline season does only.

OK OK OK

Since it is now a new year, may I suggest a compromise to accommodate all those here that are "visually challenged" and insist they need a scope to level the playing field during the muzzleloading season.

You can use any scope of any power you choose ---- BUT----you can only use a Flintlock with real black powder and patched round balls!

i know lots of guys from the east that have muzzleloaders with scopes on them. when they go out west where scopes are not legal ,they carry there scopes in there backpack and put it on once in the woods. i'm sure there are lots of guys doing this everywhere.

Here in Mississippi we have the reverse problem. Deer populations are on the rise and the state can't get people to go kill a few. We don't even have to use muzzle loaders during "primitive weapons season" anymore. Down here a .45-70 is considered a primitive weapon. There are some regulations on the rifle you can use though. It has to be breach loading, have an exposed hammer, be .38 or above and a 1899 rifle or replica of. a NEF Handi rifle in 45-70 fits all the above requirements as it was first made in 1871. Scopes have always' been allowed.

Here is my "primitive weapons season" rifle. No Joke! With the new Hornady Lever revolution ammo it's a 200yd point and shoot weapon.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
What will happen is states that don't allow scopes will probably cut way back on the tags or stop having ML hunts. Ron

B.S.

Auto insurance companies would cause a
back lash that DNR's would quickly rescind
actions taken such as you suggest.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
In the past older men that were too old to hunt (because or eyesight or physical limitations) didn’t go the young men hunted. People that were physically limited didn’t go into wilderness areas.[QUOTE]

Very true. The young men got game for the old
men as well as themselves. Unfortunately, doing
so now is illegal EVERYWHERE in the U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Here in Mississippi we have the reverse problem. Deer populations are on the rise and the state can't get people to go kill a few. We don't even have to use muzzle loaders during "primitive weapons season" anymore. Down here a .45-70 is considered a primitive weapon. There are some regulations on the rifle you can use though. It has to be breach loading, have an exposed hammer, be .38 or above and a 1899 rifle or replica of. a NEF Handi rifle in 45-70 fits all the above requirements as it was first made in 1871. Scopes have always' been allowed.

Here is my "primitive weapons season" rifle. No Joke! With the new Hornady Lever revolution ammo it's a 200yd point and shoot weapon.

Terry

Yep, MS is proof that technology, inlines, scopes 209's sabots etc. etc. have advanced the effectiveness of modern ML's to the point they are no longer justified to have their own season. So what MS has done is do away with ML season altogether. How many inlines do you think they're selling in MS these days ). Won't bother me as I use a flinter in modern season too. But those who claim the modernization of muzzleloaders (to where they are just slow loading modern rifes) hasn't affected the sport, are just wrong.

Brayhaven, you're right. ML's just don't sell down here anymore. You had to get on a waiting list for a 45-70 handi rifle though

I was told the reason the laws were changed was to get people back out in the fields during primative weapons season. We've just got too many deer. It wouldn't suprise me if they didn''t do away with the PW season altogether in a few years.

Terry