quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
If Trump wins, he becomes the third leg in the triumvirate of despots, along with Putin and Xi.

If Trump loses, the American people will seriously damage their own society and economy from within, to the tremendous benefit of Putin and Xi.

I think we’re all fucked, either way. The dissent and rancour sown and promoted from external sources has done what it was intended to do - to destroy the western democracies to the benefit of the eastern autocracies. Remember when Khrushchev told Kennedy that “We’ll conquer you without firing a shot”? The east is much better at playing the long game.

The more powerful oligarchs like Musk and the Murdochs are acting on the belief that their actions now will buy them a table at the upcoming feast.

“1984” was off by 40 years, but here we are. Electing Trump will just hasten the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
If Trump wins, he becomes the third leg in the triumvirate of despots, along with Putin and Xi.

If Trump loses, the American people will seriously damage their own society and economy from within, to the tremendous benefit of Putin and Xi.

I think we’re all fucked, either way. The dissent and rancour sown and promoted from external sources has done what it was intended to do - to destroy the western democracies to the benefit of the eastern autocracies. Remember when Khrushchev told Kennedy that “We’ll conquer you without firing a shot”? The east is much better at playing the long game.

The more powerful oligarchs like Musk and the Murdochs are acting on the belief that their actions now will buy them a table at the upcoming feast.

“1984” was off by 40 years, but here we are. Electing Trump will just hasten the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
to me, the no win is that either trump or harris will be president - both are deeply flawed -

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
to me, the no win is that either trump or harris will be president - both are deeply flawed -

truer words... Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

I don't know about finishing the wall, but mass deportations would be barred by federal law.

Unless you're talking about the mass hiring of ALJs to hear their asylum claims.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
If Trump wins, he becomes the third leg in the triumvirate of despots, along with Putin and Xi.

If Trump loses, the American people will seriously damage their own society and economy from within, to the tremendous benefit of Putin and Xi.

I think we’re all fucked, either way. The dissent and rancour sown and promoted from external sources has done what it was intended to do - to destroy the western democracies to the benefit of the eastern autocracies. Remember when Khrushchev told Kennedy that “We’ll conquer you without firing a shot”? The east is much better at playing the long game.

The more powerful oligarchs like Musk and the Murdochs are acting on the belief that their actions now will buy them a table at the upcoming feast.

“1984” was off by 40 years, but here we are. Electing Trump will just hasten the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
Believe me, there is nothing I’d like more than to be completely wrong about that.

My grandfather was a German lawyer, a military officer in WW1, and a retired Reichsgericht judge by the time Hitler came to power. He knew a lunatic when he saw one, and had a good idea of the impending consequences.

He managed to get my teenaged later-to-be father, his only son, out before the shit hit the fan (never meeting face to face again), and I know enough of that history to see alarming similarities with the blind and irrational following of the Trumpist cult of this era.

Getting along in the world? I’ve done, and continue to do, just fine thanks. I guess we’ll see which one of us is the ‘nut’ within the next year or so. I’d be very relieved to bear that mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

I don't know about finishing the wall, but mass deportations would be barred by federal law.

Unless you're talking about the mass hiring of ALJs to hear their asylum claims.

Didn't they intimate that they won't follow the law or a court decision? If you're nabbed you'll likely be stripped of any rights [or they'll be ignored] and you could be out of the country within days. There's no way that they could deport a million illegals in a year by following the law.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

I don't know about finishing the wall, but mass deportations would be barred by federal law.

Unless you're talking about the mass hiring of ALJs to hear their asylum claims.

Didn't they intimate that they won't follow the law or a court decision? If you're nabbed you'll likely be stripped of any rights [or they'll be ignored] and you could be out of the country within days. There's no way that they could deport a million illegals in a year by following the law.

If Trump ignores court orders in order to appease his xenophobic followers, it would indeed provoke a Constitutional crises and do irreparable damage to our republic.

It would establish once and for all that Trump is a fascist dictator. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
If Trump wins, he becomes the third leg in the triumvirate of despots, along with Putin and Xi.

If Trump loses, the American people will seriously damage their own society and economy from within, to the tremendous benefit of Putin and Xi.

I think we’re all fucked, either way. The dissent and rancour sown and promoted from external sources has done what it was intended to do - to destroy the western democracies to the benefit of the eastern autocracies. Remember when Khrushchev told Kennedy that “We’ll conquer you without firing a shot”? The east is much better at playing the long game.

The more powerful oligarchs like Musk and the Murdochs are acting on the belief that their actions now will buy them a table at the upcoming feast.

“1984” was off by 40 years, but here we are. Electing Trump will just hasten the process.

I am reminded of America every time I see pictures and video of former colonies like in and some of the M.E. and Africa. The structure of the "glory days" are still there, high rises, Roman roads and aqua ducts but it's all crumbling. Cities and empires built that have been returning to nature since the day the colonial armies left.

America at its zenith built large and stood tall. The Empire State building, Golden Gate bridge, federal highway system. Universities known around the world and the preservation of Yellowstone.

We're letting it all crumble. How many American city streets resemble modern day Mogadishu?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Much of the crumbling you see before your eyes has been purposely engineered by the GOP, the underfunding of the USFS is a very easy example.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Hardly a joke, our public [lands] are an absolute treasure,

They are a treasure for sure. The USFS however is a poor steward, is led by imbeciles with a green agenda, contributes nothing to US infrastructure (the reason I called your post a joke) and has basically taken on an anti hunting agenda.

and purposely underfunded, led by the likes of Mike Lee from Utah

They have become an inept green liberal agency. As it stands, it doesn’t deserve money. If they went back to an agency run by outdoorsmen foresters employing common sense forestry methodology and looking after fellow outdoorsmen’s interests…it would be a different story.

whose goal is to divest us of those lands so private individuals can profit.

His thought process is that this green federal agency does such a poor job that he pushes an agenda that the land might be better off in private hands. “I” am inclined to disagree in principle and side with you on this. However, he is not wrong on the worthlessness of the modern agency.

Public lands are huge contributors to income and business throughout the west, hunting alone brings in tens of millions each year to several states.

Would be nice then if the USFS actually supported that^^^

The USFS is just one of the federal agencies that the GOP intentionally under funds.

Explained above.

That is most certainly not a joke, unfortunately it is one of the most sad and pathetic aspects of GOP policy.

Your fallacy is that the failing of the USFS is the fault of the GOP. I bet the staff of the USFS votes 90% (D). It is the liberal ideology that the agency has taken on that makes conservatives not want to spend money there.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Hardly a joke, our public are an absolute treasure,

They are a treasure for sure. The USFS however is a poor steward, is led by imbeciles with a green agenda, contributes nothing to US infrastructure (the reason I called your post a joke) and has basically taken on an anti hunting agenda. Rubbish, there is nothing anti-hunting about the USFS. I have millions of acres that I can and do access on a regular basis that is owned and managed by the USFS. Please provide some proof for your false claim.

and purposely underfunded, led by the likes of Mike Lee from Utah

They have become an inept green liberal agency. As it stands, it doesn’t deserve money. If they went back to an agency run by outdoorsmen foresters employing common sense forestry methodology and looking after fellow outdoorsmen’s interests…it would be a different story. That is simply untrue, they are not some green organization and they most certainly deserve funding to manage our public lands.

whose goal is to divest us of those lands so private individuals can profit.

His thought process is that this green federal agency does such a poor job and also pushes an agenda that the land might be better off in private hands. “I” am inclined to disagree in principle and side with you on this. However, he is not wrong on the worthlessness of the modern agency. Mike lee is most certainly wrong in that our public lands do not deserve to be in private hands, that is his goal. Totall rubbish about the USFS being worthless, the only reason that they are ineffective is that the GOP refuses to fund them.

Public lands are huge contributors to income and business throughout the west, hunting alone brings in tens of millions each year to several states.

Would be nice then if the USFS actually supported that^^^ They do, please show any evidence to the contrary.

The USFS is just one of the federal agencies that the GOP intentionally under funds.

Explained above.

That is most certainly not a joke, unfortunately it is one of the most sad and pathetic aspects of GOP policy.

Your fallacy is that the failing of the USFS is the fault of the GOP. I bet the staff of the USFS votes 90% (D). It is the liberal ideology that the agency has taken on that makes conservatives not want to spend money there.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Look at the positive...Trump has promised to finish the wall and make mass deportations. If for no other reason at all,. that gives him my vote.

Better smell the roses...this country has been on a down hill slide since obummer days...It will take some firm choices to make meaningbful correction..Yeah...Lotsa hanky twisters and commies just might get their feelings hurt

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
I don't know about black kids in Chicago, but I do know there has been a trend in recent years, to privatize public services nationwide. So it is that agencies like the National Park Service are underfunded, and their places taken by concessionaires. The result is that the people pay more for reduced services provided by surly, minimum wage employees.
Major timber companies were given enough land in the past that they would have been able, given the desire to do so, to establish a sustainable forestry model. The truth is, they don't care to. Private enterprise is not the highly efficient engine of progress many assume it to be. The same capacity for waste and mismanagement is still in place, but it is efficient at funneling maximum profits into selected pockets.
I have lost track of the number of times I have travelled across the US and Canada. I have driven through every state except Hawaii and Rhode Island. BLM, USFS, and National Parks lands are oases in what is becoming a desert of development, coast to coast. They need protection and private enterprise isn't going to do it.
By the way, it is worth noting, virtually every negative change which might take place under a GOP administration, is left in place by the following Democrat administration. They are too busy flushing money down their favorite toilets to bother making any effort for the country as a whole. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Sure, 10's of millions of acres throughout the West that are open to hunting with little to no restrictions, from the Roosevelt National Forest to the Ft. Pierre National Grasslands, I have and do hunt regularly. On the grasslands the USFS provides a map showing which sections were cut to save you time from driving to a perspective hunt and finding the grass cut. Here in the Roosevelt National Forest they took the time to put out a map showing legal road access points in an attempt to settle access issues, I have used the map to expand my hunting opportunities extensively.

Now, can you point to a single anti-hunting position the USFS has taken?

I do not think you can.

All taken on USFS public lands throughout the West that are open to hunting:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NrDaZrQl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/CxZmDX8l.jpg[/I
I
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/qfwVgbPl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/X9daRHLl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ItAbgGLl.jpg[/IM

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Sure, 10's of millions of acres throughout the West that are open to hunting with little to no restrictions, from the Roosevelt National Forest to the Ft. Pierre National Grasslands, I have and do hunt regularly. On the grasslands the USFS provides a map showing which sections were cut to save you time from driving to a perspective hunt and finding the grass cut. Here in the Roosevelt National Forest they took the time to put out a map showing legal road access points in an attempt to settle access issues, I have used the map to expand my hunting opportunities extensively.

Now, can you point to a single anti-hunting position the USFS has taken?

I do not think you can.

All taken on USFS public lands throughout the West that are open to hunting:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NrDaZrQl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/CxZmDX8l.jpg[/I
I
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/qfwVgbPl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/X9daRHLl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ItAbgGLl.jpg[/IM

Steve,
I have ridden the Divide Trail from Wyoming to New Mexico (in stents over many years). I used to have a pack string and would spend nearly a month in the Colorado Rockies every year packing and hunting.

All that land was open before the last 50 years. It didn’t happen in the last 50. In the last 50…the USFS made access to trails more difficult, closed many old logging roads, and quit keeping trails open and maintained. It got to where I couldn’t pack enough chainsaw gas to cut all the deadfalls off the trails I liked. Many times I would arrive at an access trailhead that I had used the year before to find it closed for no reason to horse traffic. Used to be totally different.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Sure, 10's of millions of acres throughout the West that are open to hunting with little to no restrictions, from the Roosevelt National Forest to the Ft. Pierre National Grasslands, I have and do hunt regularly. On the grasslands the USFS provides a map showing which sections were cut to save you time from driving to a perspective hunt and finding the grass cut. Here in the Roosevelt National Forest they took the time to put out a map showing legal road access points in an attempt to settle access issues, I have used the map to expand my hunting opportunities extensively.

Now, can you point to a single anti-hunting position the USFS has taken?

I do not think you can.

All taken on USFS public lands throughout the West that are open to hunting:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NrDaZrQl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/CxZmDX8l.jpg[/I
I
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/qfwVgbPl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/X9daRHLl.jpg[/I

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ItAbgGLl.jpg[/IM

Steve,
I have ridden the Divide Trail from Wyoming to New Mexico (in stents over many years). I used to have a pack string and would spend nearly a month in the Colorado Rockies every year packing and hunting.

All that land was open before the last 50 years. It didn’t happen in the last 50. In the last 50…the USFS made access to trails more difficult, closed many old logging roads, and quit keeping trails open and maintained. It got to where I couldn’t pack enough chainsaw gas to cut all the deadfalls off the trails I liked. Many times I would arrive at an access trailhead that I had used the year before to find it closed for no reason to horse traffic. Used to be totally different.

So, about the time Ronald Reagan took an ax to Federal budgets, including the Forest Service, for HIS round of tax cuts for corporations and rich people?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Reducing access is antihunting. Which USFS policy reduces access? None is the answer. Absolutely no reason to close a trailhead to horse traffic except to limit hunting. I have only encountered closed trailheads due to damage on the trails. Can you point to some of these closed trailheads? How does a county close a USFS road? They can close the road because these were formerly county roads, old stage coach routes that the county had and never gave up. YThe other way is that USFS rds cross private land(very common here) and the County chosses to settle a property dispute by closing the rd. Both have happened within walking didtance from my house. Plenty of money available for trail maintenance — No, there has been a lack of funds for DECADES, there is not plenty of money, that is only in your head. fire all those green office employees and hire a few mule-men to ride the trails and a few foresters that actually know how to manage a forest. The USFS is nothing but a green agency that sits in offices and blames their problems on global warming. They do f***-all for hunters or to better the land they steward. Rubbish, I spend weeks every year hunting USFS lands, they provide access to 10 of millions of scres, free for anybody who buys a State hunting license. Hard to find a better deal than that.