White House position is these settlements are illegal.

Article states upfront this policy shift is due to Israel’s government for more settlements following Gaza war.

Two observations from me. 1) This has more to do as the Gaza war advances the WH needing to sure up support from the Left. These settlements have always been the Left’s focus of political debate. 2) This is exactly the kind of reaction, thing, I have been talking about when I say Israel risks legitimacy from the West and ME nation states by going too far. I feel the plan to depopulate whole areas is too far.

O have long supported the settlements in place as a buffer zone from Islamic barbarism.

https://apple.news/AebOUDBDaRTWR9JdYNezm9Q

quote:

Blinken: “In our judgment, this only weakens — it doesn’t strengthen — Israel’s security.”

What a crock! Israel knows best what strengthens Israel’s security. Get the hell out of their way and lend support when asked for.

The US, since the 1950s, has become the most wishy-washy power on the globe. Our system of governance lends to no consistency on stances and that is becoming more black and white.

Hopefully, Netanyahu rolls his eyes and carries on.

Your country is occupied by a foreign country.

The occupying foreign country gives your country to others who have been persecuted by them.

Asking them not to violate your civil rights!!??


The new occupying Zionist organization follows a policy they learned from Adolf Hitler.

They systematically erase your homes and build new ones for those being imported ILLEGALLY!

The cancer spreads.

Until the whole world sees what is going on.

Suddenly, the Zionists start screaming ANTI_SEMITISIM!

Non of the sort.

The world is finally waking up to the true meaning of Zionism.

It is nothing short of a new form of Nazism!

The Jews have as much to do with what the ZIONISTS do as Muslims have anything to do with what ISIS is doing!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Blinken: “In our judgment, this only weakens — it doesn’t strengthen — Israel’s security.”

What a crock! Israel knows best what strengthens Israel’s security. Get the hell out of their way and lend support when asked for.

The US, since the 1950s, has become the most wishy-washy power on the globe. Our system of governance lends to no consistency on stances and that is becoming more black and white.

Hopefully, Netanyahu rolls his eyes and carries on.

Israelis on site know much more than I ever will, but from what leaks into the news, they've departed from security and gone for something more. I doubt stability will ensue, although the Samson Strategy is still in play and can't be discounted.

Things could get right testy if Iran had nukes.

I was listening to NPR yesterday.
I leave the military side to Israel, but.
While they are busy with that, there are people taking advantage of it. Money folks going into Hebron area leveling schools, taking over olive groves, moving shepherds flocks, etc. According to NPR, illegal activities, but no-one to police what they are doing.

And herein is one of our political problems.

Biden on his own has changed longstanding US policy in the middle of a crisis.

So much for him being a reasoned and honest actor.


This kind of licking your finger and testing which way the wind is blowing is part and parcel why we are problematic in foreign affairs.

It does seem (excepting Trump) to be a democrat behavior- radical swings in official policy.

It didn’t do us any favors when Carter did it. Obama’s Arab spring was a stain on his presidency. Now Biden seems to be doing his damndest to fracture Israel/US relations.

While I see concerns about the Israeli behavior on the West Bank, I don’t think declaring them illegal is going to help resolve the issue.

I strongly support Israel’s right to exist and to so so in peace and security. That said humanitarian standards and justice must apply.

In the region of 25-30,000 people are dead in Gaza depending on who you believe and the number of wounded and maimed is going to be a multiple of that figure. Every one of those ( a large percentage at least) has a possible cause for revenge against Isreal, current behaviour is the best recruiting sergeant Hamas could have.

If they cannot win militarily this is the best outcome for them. Pictures in the world media of dead or maimed Arab and Muslim women and kids. What better way of polarising opinion, garnering support from Arab fund raisers and states.

It’s absolutely legitimate for the west to seek to temper Israels actions. In the age of terrorism very little can be conclusively solved by partially exterminating the populace of Gaza.

President Biden’s concerns are legitimate.

In absence of legislation or a treaty, the policy is his to modify.

I would not leverage this particular policy.

One would think that Israel with its formation largely based on the whole motto never again regarding the Holocaust would be very sensitive to conducting genocide.

We in the west have to remember we have the propaganda arm of militant Islam vs the “reasonably” open press of Israel to compete with for a message.

Don’t forget the western press and UN were caught having Hamas members working for them.

I agree that Biden’s concern that we cannot agree with a genocide is legitimate… I just don’t agree that while an ally is actively fighting that we reverse longstanding policy publicly.

At most we should have quietly been making our concerns known to the Israeli government.

Justice and the rule of law must apply. If we support state sponsored genocide we are no better than Putin.

Just because they are an ally it doesn't give them a free pass to act in any way they want. Gaza is not Israeli territory.

A UK news team has been filming in the West Bank for a few years (channel 4 if you are interested), for the last 2-3 years documented illegal settlers intimidating the Palestinian legal owners of farms in the WB. They pitch up with a bulldozer and demolish the farmers buildings and in one instance shoot a farmer in the gut. He survived but is missing a big chunk of his liver, 3 months in the ICU. The Israeli police and army do nothing.

Neither side is whiter than white. Justice and the rule of law must apply in equal measure, otherwise it's worthless. Its what make society work.

All haters and injustice thrives, feeds, and survives on one thing being silence.


I have no issue w President Biden addressing legitimate concerns publicly to the U.S. citizens and international community.


Despite Dr. Easter’s position, killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

It is not possible. It will cause widespread revolt again Israel. Arab nation-states who have an interest in seeing Israel as a player against Iran will abandon relationships with Israel. The U.S. cannot support such action.

The result is a less secure and isolated Israel.

Again, I would not leverage this policy. However, I respect the decision is President Biden’s to make. I can question the why now aspect. I have done so.

I do see it as more a a sure play with the Left.

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

I for one am glad you never seem to tire of saying stupid shit. Entertaining if nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Justice and the rule of law must apply. If we support state sponsored genocide we are no better than Putin.

Just because they are an ally it doesn't give them a free pass to act in any way they want. Gaza is not Israeli territory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...000%20to%20500%2C000.

Between 350,000 and 500,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombing alone.

Again, 350,000 to HALF A MILLION German civilians killed just by Allied bombers, not to mention anything else.

No, Gaza isn't Israeli territory any more than mid 20th century Germany was one of my 50 states.

Why is WW2 so sanitized in our minds? Ancient history? No 24 hour news cycle? No color video? "The good guys" won?

Nute, if your feelings succeed and we turn this latest war into some morphed UN peacekeeping Introduction of Democracy, the bad guys will win. Again.

Pretty sure laser and GPS guided smart bombs weren’t around during WW2. You dropped from an unpressurized B17 at 20,000’ and gravity took over. Absolutely no way to prevent collateral damage if the goal is to flatten arms factories scattered in among civilian infrastructure…

In March 1945 approximately 100,000 were killed in a single nighttime bombing raid on Tokyo. Perhaps it is the occurrence of such horrendous events that makes us all the more sensitive today to other wartime atrocities involving civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Pretty sure laser and GPS guided smart bombs weren’t around during WW2. You dropped from an unpressurized B17 at 20,000’ and gravity took over. Absolutely no way to prevent collateral damage if the goal is to flatten arms factories scattered in among civilian infrastructure…

And if the goal is to get ammunition dumps in kindergarten classrooms we should,........?

IIRC, some of the firebombing of Germany was done at night because the anti aircraft fire was too effective during the day. So, use firebombs, just get sort of close you hope and the inferno will do the rest.

Day or night,the Allies all knew they were killing German civilians, was that wrong to do?

Who really is to blame for civilian deaths in Gaza? Hamas used hospitals for terrorist operations, so Israel should cease hostilities in and around hospitals or mebbe Hamas should stay out of hospitals?

As you said, "absolutely no way to prevent collateral damage" when the enemy uses elementary schools.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

I for one am glad you never seem to tire of saying stupid shit. Entertaining if nothing else.

Get back with me when it is solved by alternative means and peace is achieved.

The position is moronic and sophomoric.

Even if you could kill every male in Gaza, more would just come.

This barbarism is no different than Hamas. I oppose you.

Such action would see me abandon Israel. I hope Israel is smarter than that.

The de-population plan that caused this policy removal on the surface gives me concern.

Treat Hamas and its leadership like the Nazis. Ban there existence, but Israel cannot go to the river to the sea by killing every male in Gaza and taking every Palestinian piece of property.


All you are tonight is given Israel’s political opposition justification for that opposition.

Get back with me when it is solved by other means.

It never will be.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
President Biden’s concerns are legitimate.

In absence of legislation or a treaty, the policy is his to modify.

I would not leverage this particular policy.

you forgot the KEY part -- "and get past a senate vote to approve" ..

yeah, that part

There is no “solving it.” There is just managing it to create a more secure Israeli state and a more stable Palestinian position.

One that seeks to limit the power of Iran in the region.

Again, moronic. What you propose is not possible, would not work, and make Israel less secure.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
President Biden’s concerns are legitimate.

In absence of legislation or a treaty, the policy is his to modify.

I would not leverage this particular policy.

you forgot the KEY part -- "and get past a senate vote to approve" ..

yeah, that part

He does not have to.

The Executive wo a treaty or legislation has a free hand.

if he changes a treaty, what does the Const say about the next duty -- use little words, i am tired

There is no treaty recognizing the West Bank settlements by the U.S.

President Trump is who changed prior administration policy in West Bank Settlement.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

I for one am glad you never seem to tire of saying stupid shit. Entertaining if nothing else.

Actually, it is very sad to hear this from what we assumed to be a reasonable individual!

Killing innocent people should NEVER be allowed.

No matter who does it!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In March 1945 approximately 100,000 were killed in a single nighttime bombing raid on Tokyo. Perhaps it is the occurrence of such horrendous events that makes us all the more sensitive today to other wartime atrocities involving civilians.

Those stats just make me proud, not sensative!

How many Allied soldiers lives where saved by that bombing raid?

How many allied lives where saved by the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Enough to make it worthwhile, that's how,many!

War, when fought, needs to be ruthless immediate and conclusive!


.

quote:

Who really is to blame for civilian deaths in Gaza

The only question!

Israel didn't attack until they where attacked......by cowards...that attacked civilians......children...women....



.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

I for one am glad you never seem to tire of saying stupid shit. Entertaining if nothing else.

Actually, it is very sad to hear this from what we assumed to be a reasonable individual!

Killing innocent people should NEVER be allowed.

No matter who does it!

Yeah well....when animals kill innocents from cover that cover must be destroyed......


.

I understand the necessity of the Toyko bombings. I understand the role they played in avoiding a painful land invasion. But to be proud of events that killed hundreds of thousands of citizens . . . that’s just sick. And I do believe that just like events like the Holocaust make us more sensitive to situations that feel like genocide, the killing of citizens in events like the Toyko bombings makes us much more sensitive to other situations in wars where significant civilian lives are lost. We would be damn sad excuses as human beings if that was not the case.

The point remains that we used to make war so horrible, so evil that good guys and bad guys were reticent to try it. Nuclear Deterrents or Mutual Assured Destruction being our latest examples.

I'm going to take a big pass on the opinions of our friends here that think Israel can be too aggressive in its counterattack. Again, applying Western or Infidel morals and values on Eastern cultures has been documented dozens of time to not work. After two decades of "Introducing Democracy" in Afghanistan, the Taliban is hosting public executions in stadiums with convicts that may be guilty. still to good to be fiction .

Hamas and Islam can be led to see that terrorism isn't worth it. The price is to high, the load to heavy. I believe Israel, having lived thru its recent genocide has the backbone or will to convince Hamas that as General Sherman said, "war is all Hell". America and the West is obviously not in possession of said backbone. Any war or Police Action or Peacekeeping Operation that is predicated on "rules of engagement" is destined to fail.

I oppose war and violence. I believe killing my fellow man is wrong and immoral.

I believe the call to war should always be answered with a No! the first dozen times its made. However, if war is imperative, (and we've had a dozen recently that were not,) then the war should be fought to win. Not to be fought while planning reconstruction, not to be fought while introducing democracy or relabeling French Fries, simply win. Destroy the enemy, win the war.

Anything less than Sherman's "Total War" gives comfort to the enemy.

Afghanistan was not the failed state you keep saying it was.

However, our experience in the ME is why I have no issue saying that kill ever make in Gaza is stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In March 1945 approximately 100,000 were killed in a single nighttime bombing raid on Tokyo. Perhaps it is the occurrence of such horrendous events that makes us all the more sensitive today to other wartime atrocities involving civilians.

My information is that 500,000 people were killed in the incendiary bombing and the firestorms that followed in Tokyo during one 24-hour period.

We used incendiary bombs because Japanese homes were constructed largely of wood and paper. It worked.

Combined with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it surprised me even in 1975, when I first visited Japan, that very few Japanese harbor hatred or resentment of the US.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Blinken: “In our judgment, this only weakens — it doesn’t strengthen — Israel’s security.”

What a crock! Israel knows best what strengthens Israel’s security. Get the hell out of their way and lend support when asked for.

The US, since the 1950s, has become the most wishy-washy power on the globe. Our system of governance lends to no consistency on stances and that is becoming more black and white.

Hopefully, Netanyahu rolls his eyes and carries on.

So we should just write Israel blank checks while they set not only their own policy but ours too?

Methinks not. I support Biden's decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Justice and the rule of law must apply. If we support state sponsored genocide we are no better than Putin.

Just because they are an ally it doesn't give them a free pass to act in any way they want. Gaza is not Israeli territory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...000%20to%20500%2C000.

Between 350,000 and 500,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombing alone.

Again, 350,000 to HALF A MILLION German civilians killed just by Allied bombers, not to mention anything else.

No, Gaza isn't Israeli territory any more than mid 20th century Germany was one of my 50 states.

Why is WW2 so sanitized in our minds? Ancient history? No 24 hour news cycle? No color video? "The good guys" won?

Nute, if your feelings succeed and we turn this latest war into some morphed UN peacekeeping Introduction of Democracy, the bad guys will win. Again.

Scott, with respect, you seem to have forgotten more of the history yourself. We packed up and left Germany, left it to its own self determination and governance. Do you think Israel will do the same?

We are in a different time. With the number of states and individuals willing to fund and train and equip anyone with a grudge or indeed anyone they can persuade on religious grounds to strap a suicide vest to themselves and walk into a crowded market place, just how peaceful do you think Israel or Gaza will be after Lanes solution?

If your daughter was, god forbid maimed or killed, just how accepting would you be when someone from the any number of anti Israeli factions comes whispering in your ear, offers you training and a sack of C5 and a barrel of nails? I suspect your reaction would be similar to mine.

It’s not my feelings, it’s real life, you just cannot put yourself into their position and follow the thought process through to its logical conclusion.

There are no “good guys” in this, neither side is whiter than white. If you think this isn’t the case you are only looking at half the story.

For the first 30 years of my life the IRA would take every opportunity they could to bomb cities here. Six bombs went off in a town I worked in. Back then the levels of sophistication were primitive compared to now, those responsible learnt by trail and error, not looking at the internet on their phones or spending a few weeks in Iran. The situations are very different but there are parallels, and the solution wasn’t killing every republican male.

Revenge, which I fully understand the desire for, is not a solution.

quote:

We are in a different time. With the number of states and individuals willing to fund and train and equip anyone with a grudge or indeed anyone they can persuade on religious grounds to strap a suicide vest to themselves and walk into a crowded market place, just how peaceful do you think Israel or Gaza will be after Lanes solution?

It can’t be any worse Nute. It doesn’t get worse than living with daily rocket fire and the potential for what happened on 10-7. “Normal” people don’t do what was done to people on 10-7. Normal people don’t burn children alive.

I wii repeat it can’t get any worse. Might as well fight to the bitter-end now than ever go back to how it was.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

killing every male in Gaza and trying to make Gaza part of Israel with Palestinians removed and property redistributed to Israel’s is not the answer.

Not only is it the answer…it is the only answer. The “Palestinians” have already declined every other option and given Israel the middle finger in the process.

There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution — ZERO!

I for one am glad you never seem to tire of saying stupid shit. Entertaining if nothing else.

Actually, it is very sad to hear this from what we assumed to be a reasonable individual!

Killing innocent people should NEVER be allowed.

No matter who does it!

Reasonable?

How reasonable is it to burn children alive for enjoyment. It happened 10-7.

I understand what you are saying but it could get worse. If the IDF had been doing their job 10-7 either wouldn't have happened, or it would have been contained.

The status quo prior to this wasn't great but it didn't involve 100,000 people dead or injured, so returning to that, imperfect as it was, is better than we have now.

I agree, those that were responsible for 10-7 are animals and deserve to be treated as such. Isreal has been attacked before, numerous times, and it has never resulted this carnage.

Israel has been very good at working out who is responsible, tracking them down individually, however long it takes, and killing them. I have no problem with that at all. None.

I do have a problem with a generation of orphans growing up not knowing who their parents were, with operations being undertaken in hospitals with no drugs or anaesthetics because Isreal wont let relief supplies in, with people being buried alive in the current military action.

There is no bitter end because the desire for revenge will always exist, the more people you kill or maim the more relations are left behind and there will be a ready supply of people willing to take what they perceive as revenge.

That generation of orphans gives radical, fundamental Islam its next recruits.

Hamas has to be pulled up root and stem. Iran has to be isolated.

This kill them all and make Gaza downtown Tel Aviv is not going to lead to a more secure Israel. The U.S. will not support it, the West will not support it, and it strengthens Iran’s hand.

Those are separate issues from whether the US should leverage the West Bank situation to put pressure on Israel in Gaza. Frankly, I believe the policy switch has very little to do w moving Israel or course correction and more to do with during up Left support going into the election.

quote:

If the IDF had been doing their job 10-7 either wouldn't have happened, or it would have been contained.

Really?

Why should people even have to worry about atrocity like this? It was a peaceful day with a music festival!



It DOES NOT get worse.