Believe it or not…there is an Israeli faction of reining horse trainers in the USA. Today I had the privilege of visiting with a late 20 something young man fresh out of the military here doing an apprenticeship with a prominent Israeli reining horse trainer who is a permanent US citizen.

I never pass the opportunity to visit with these guys are they are always extremely intelligent and quick learners…eager to learn about the problems with the horses they brought in. I always ask them about their country and their thoughts on their gvt to keep an honest perspective.

This particular young man has 3 brothers and a Dad in his 60s. The Dad is just a small businessman in everyday life. But now their whole life is on hold. The Dad was called up as a high-ranking officer, 1 brother is too young to serve, and 2 are active — one just in and one on the frontline in Gaza.

He told me all about his family and his feelings on all.

This thread is just to give a shout-out to how together these young men have it and to how real they understand the world having to serve. I have the upmost respect for them and our conversations always make me pray for the survival of Israel. These are salt of the earth people.

But keep voting against the aid package to help them and Ukraine defend itself.

You mean funding our proxy war with Russia don’t you?

The packages that have passed the Senate include Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan.

I have no issue with supporting the commitment the Ukrainians have made wo US Troops.

For reasons given in other threads, Russia is a threat to us.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
You mean funding our proxy war with Russia don’t you?

It is that sad human trait.

Looking at one one side of the coin!

After listening to this young man today give direct reports from his younger brothers and father…I would be happy if the US sent direct military support to clean out Gaza.

I and all Republicans are for funding Israel. It is other issues causing the problems.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The packages that have passed the Senate include Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan.

I have no issue with supporting the commitment the Ukrainians have made wo US Troops.

For reasons given in other threads, Russia is a threat to us.

you forgot the AND part ...

AND support for HAMAS via Gaza

Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

I'd like someone to show me where the current plans deviate from depopulating Gaza.
I don't see the offramp, and that's not the same thing as Israel defending itself.
Defense is understandable, conquest is not something we should be supporting.
Where's the middle path?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

Palestinian and Hamas is synonymous. Scott has made the point before. This young made the picture even clearer.

They are not synonymous. They are political responsible as Germans were, but not all deserved execution.

I do not support long term Israeli Administration of Gaza. That is because I see it detrimental to Israel security.

I have no issue with Hamas not being permitted as a party with its symbols criminalized as we did in Germany.

I like Scott King’s idea of a demilitarized zone with a Palestinian State on the other side.

Dr. Easter’s advocacy and Israel engagement (if they so do) in such policy will see Israel lose support and legitimacy.

TomP and Bill’s post are very rational. Neither shall be to the River and the Sea.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The packages that have passed the Senate include Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan.

I have no issue with supporting the commitment the Ukrainians have made wo US Troops.

For reasons given in other threads, Russia is a threat to us.

you forgot the AND part ...

AND support for HAMAS via Gaza

For everything else I will take it. I would strongly defer to Israel when it comes to aid. However, the GOP did not pass a bill removing that provision, and get the Dems to refuse a vote did they?

Joshua,
All you know is what you read and you are very susceptible to left-wing talking points. Make no mistake about it…Palestinian and Hamas is synonymous. Every Israeli who is out of the service I spoken to…has reiterated that fact.

So Israel has a very good and strong military.

They have robust arms making within the country.

Heck, I own some Israeli made guns and ammo.

What exactly is the US giving Israel military aid of?

The fight with Hamas is not particularly high tech. They are firing a lot of anti projectile missles, but that’s iron dome and Israeli made.

If there is something they need we can provide, other than cash I’m fine with it. I certainly agree with their defending themselves.

But if we are just footing their bill, they can deficit spend like we do…. I’m not inclined to add to our deficit for it when they are a successful nation state and have their own resources.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

I'd like someone to show me where the current plans deviate from depopulating Gaza.
I don't see the offramp, and that's not the same thing as Israel defending itself.
Defense is understandable, conquest is not something we should be supporting.
Where's the middle path?

To leave race and genocide out of it, consider what happened to Germany. The Allies much more than defended itself against the aggressor Germany. I would suggest that the destruction of Germany was greater than what we did to Japan.
The Axis was wiped clean. A clean slate for a new beginning.

Since then the Allies have repeatedly tried to preserve enemy life, "Introduce Democracy" sanitize war especially for the viewers of the 24 hour news cycle. I believe this effort not only makes war much more acceptable and therefore common but also guarantees failure and we can mention a dozen examples. War is so innocuous now that even here on the pf our friends saber rattle to go save the Kurds, go save the Ukrainians, go save whoever the Chinese are picking on.

Mike Mitchell recently posted an article about Iran telling its proxy's to back off some. I strongly doubt it. Iran and the rest of The Caliphate, really all of the East has little to fear from Allied violence and war since we mute and sanitize ourselves before even the first shot is fired.

I believe we should never go to war. Never, never, never go to war. But when we do go to war the only outcome is to win, achieve victory. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think Jdollar hates General Sherman to this day for the war Sherman brought t Georgia. I am sorry for his family's suffering but we do notice Georgia hasn't fought since then.

Not bad Scott.

I don’t disagree that the western powers have been trying to sanitize warfare for decades (Since WWI)…

My only disagreement is that I do believe there are some few things worse than war. If it’s one of those things, fight the war and win. If not, don’t start fighting.

Agreed with Scott and Dr B.

I have to admit im increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening in Gaza. If Israel flattened the whole place to nothing but rubble and killed every male between 18 and 30 I still don't think that will stop it.

The problem will just reappear in a few years as generations who have had their fathers/ brothers/ mothers killed in this war want revenge. 26,000 people have been killed there, thousands more maimed or orphaned, the vast majority of which are not hamass. Thousands more who have been wounded and taken to hospitals with no drugs and no anaesthetics.

That said, I don't know what the answer is.

One of the biggest differences with this vs WW2 is with the latter there was a reconstruction plan, well thought out and funded.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
You mean funding our proxy war with Russia don’t you?

Leave it to you to defend Hamas and wish for dead Jews.

What a disgusting POS you are.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

Palestinian and Hamas is synonymous. Scott has made the point before. This young made the picture even clearer.

The palestinians were dancing in the street and spitting on dead Israeli teenagers. They hide weapons and terrorists. They are complicit.

I don't think Israel wants to move settlements into Gaza, they withdrew all the settlements and gave them intact to the Gazans. And what did they get in return?

War.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
I have to admit im increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening in Gaza. If Israel flattened the whole place to nothing but rubble and killed every male between 18 and 30 I still don't think that will stop it.

The problem will just reappear in a few years as generations who have had their fathers/ brothers/ mothers killed in this war want revenge. 26,000 people have been killed there, thousands more maimed or orphaned, the vast majority of which are not hamass. Thousands more who have been wounded and taken to hospitals with no drugs and no anaesthetics.

That said, I don't know what the answer is.

One of the biggest differences with this vs WW2 is with the latter there was a reconstruction plan, well thought out and funded.

I guess if you are going to lose a war it's best to lose to a benevolent Super Power. I think it's a mistake to count on benevolence.

I'm inclined to think there wasn't a whole lot of reconstruction planning when Dresden was firebombed. The Soviets may have had some reconstruction in mind, but it would have been reconstruction in their own image.

Nute, you make my point, in retaliation for a terrorist attack the West is predictably all upset and worried about those poor terrorists and their feelings.

I say it again and again and again, it's been documented that there were arms cashes in kindergarten classrooms. Hospitals were/ are used for terrorist purposes by Hamas.

Nobody can buy the idea that Gaza and the Palestinians aren't Hamas/ Hamas isn't the Palestinians and Gaza.

Our very own Palestinian US representative Rashida Tlab use the, "River to the Sea!" quote and she meant it.

Palestine=HAMAS

Kill em all. Nits make,lice!



.

quote:

Originally posted by straightshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
You mean funding our proxy war with Russia don’t you?

Leave it to you to defend Hamas and wish for dead Jews.

What a disgusting POS you are.

Wow that is a reach. Wow. Maybe get back to your day drinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Lane, what do you mean by "clean out Gaza"?
If you mean hunt down and destroy Hamas, I am with you.
If you mean drive out the Palestinians and turn it into more settlements for Ultra-Orthodox zionists, I am not.

The Ultra Orthodox Zionists don't rape, kidnap, bomb and otherwise terrorize like the Palestinians with their UN helpers do.

https://images.app.goo.gl/qMVjtdLW4mdNVxx18

I have no problem with Israel re establishing it's historical borders.

And "Philistia" remains intact.

quote:

The Ultra Orthodox Zionists don't rape, kidnap, bomb and otherwise terrorize like the Palestinians with their UN helpers do.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:

quote:

Originally posted by straightshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
You mean funding our proxy war with Russia don’t you?

Leave it to you to defend Hamas and wish for dead Jews.

What a disgusting POS you are.

Wow that is a reach. Wow. Maybe get back to your day drinking.

Really, don't you read your own BS you post.

And I notice you didn't deny it either. Come out from behind your nazi flag.

Still on the kiddie porn?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Believe it or not…there is an Israeli faction of reining horse trainers in the USA. Today I had the privilege of visiting with a late 20 something young man fresh out of the military here doing an apprenticeship with a prominent Israeli reining horse trainer who is a permanent US citizen.

I never pass the opportunity to visit with these guys are they are always extremely intelligent and quick learners…eager to learn about the problems with the horses they brought in. I always ask them about their country and their thoughts on their gvt to keep an honest perspective.

This particular young man has 3 brothers and a Dad in his 60s. The Dad is just a small businessman in everyday life. But now their whole life is on hold. The Dad was called up as a high-ranking officer, 1 brother is too young to serve, and 2 are active — one just in and one on the frontline in Gaza.

He told me all about his family and his feelings on all.

This thread is just to give a shout-out to how together these young men have it and to how real they understand the world having to serve. I have the upmost respect for them and our conversations always make me pray for the survival of Israel. These are salt of the earth people.

It will never happen, but it's my opinion that every single 18 year old able-bodied male in the US ought to go through some sort of basic military training course in the summer after high school graduation. 4 weeks of getting yelled at, running and working out, and understanding how to maintain, clean and zero a weapon.

I agree that universal service is a good idea.

When we had a military draft it did a lot to solidify that we were one country rather than a collection of regions.

I also think that the women should do this as well. (Thus service rather than military service)…

I think 3 different groups would need to be made- men, women, and a third group for the transgendered and fluid group to avoid amorous behaviors within training groups.

While 4 weeks is too short to really get these folks to accomplish much practical work, it probably would serve the purpose.

In my mind, a year would be better, with military/peace corps/CCC type options for the folks involved- and no exceptions except for those institutionalized. So what if we need to have some special facilities for those with physical issues?

Frankly, a lot of the problems in todays military revolve around the whole idea that only the exceptional physical types can serve… if you are in a disciplined setting, everyone would loose fat… both on the belly and between the ears.

I am in agreement.

You than every American should be enlisted for some period of time, Lane?

Where were you when you had the chance to carry out your vision for others?

I registered with select service on my 18th birthday and carried my draft card. I certainly would have gone if called. Wasn’t much going on the world in late 70’s early 80’s.

I considered enlisting a couple of times and got entwined in college and pursuing my profession.

There were lots of things I could have done better. One or 2 years in the military wouldn’t have done me any harm and likely would have been beneficial to my young adult education.

Doug,

You doing OK? You haven’t been around much. I been thinking to reach out and check on you. Then you showed up to give me shit. Hope all is well with you.

The West is going bananas because Putin killed one person.

Israel is killing tens of thousands, all because of false religious claims.

Zionism to Jews is like ISIS is to Islam.

Neither have any relationship to the religions they claim.

They are using religion as a political pawn!

What a sick world we are living in right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Zionism to Jews is like ISIS is to Islam.

Except for the Zionists aren't kidnapping, raping and murdering little boys right?

Hamas on October 7th is related to the Zionists how?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The West is going bananas because Putin killed one person.

Israel is killing tens of thousands, all because of false religious claims.

Zionism to Jews is like ISIS is to Islam.

Neither have any relationship to the religions they claim.

They are using religion as a political pawn!

What a sick world we are living in right now.

Takes a lot of hypocrisy, refusal to accept that the other side are humans too and deserving of equal rights and justice and blind faith, among other reasons. And some of these consider themselves to be good Christians/Muslims/Hindus,etc., and if they are atheists, they consider themselves good, decent people. Just read the posts calling the Palestinians and citizens of other Muslim countries as animals and not deserving of freedom. One of the first steps to fascism is dehumanising the others. They are less than humans/us and hence it is fair to kill them all. And they sleep at night peacefully without any conflict in their values.

The people who committed and facilitated the 10-7 action are not deserving of anything but a rifle ball.

Yes, I sleep well at night.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The West is going bananas because Putin killed one person.

Israel is killing tens of thousands, all because of false religious claims.

Zionism to Jews is like ISIS is to Islam.

Neither have any relationship to the religions they claim.

They are using religion as a political pawn!

What a sick world we are living in right now.

Takes a lot of hypocrisy, refusal to accept that the other side are humans too and deserving of equal rights and justice and blind faith, among other reasons. And some of these consider themselves to be good Christians/Muslims/Hindus,etc., and if they are atheists, they consider themselves good, decent people. Just read the posts calling the Palestinians and citizens of other Muslim countries as animals and not deserving of freedom. One of the first steps to fascism is dehumanising the others. They are less than humans/us and hence it is fair to kill them all. And they sleep at night peacefully without any conflict in their values.

The problem with too many people is that they seemingly have an inability to think of issues in any way other than binary. They refuse to acknowledge the existence of the gray area where in reality most issues fall. I think it is just their simplistic way of reasoning that allows them to go through life without having to challenge views that they hold that they recognize might have flaws.

Any one familiar with the Palestinian and Israeli conflict that tries to be even remotely reasonable has to accept that there is plenty of fault to go around on both sides. While the attacks by Hamas were an affront to any notion of decency, when you attempt to suppress a people for decades is it unreasonable to expect that such repression will create hate and an ultimate backlash?

There is no one side is right and one side is wrong in the Middle East. Issues that complex do not lend themselves to being put in a simple box. That is precisely why the problems have persisted for centuries. So long as we engage in picking sides, ignoring the fault and blood on the hands of the side we are supporting, the problem will remain insoluble.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The people who committed and facilitated the 10-7 action are not deserving of anything but a rifle ball.

No one here would disagree to that, including Saeed. I would be glad to send those rifle balls to their destination myself.

Having said that, there is a difference between that and using that excuse to commit wholesale slaughter and mass-murder of innocents. Please spare us the reason that Hamas launched its despicable attacks from Gaza so everyone in Gaza is a facilitator and a collaborator and hence worthy of killing. It takes a lot of blind conviction in the infallibility of one's belief so that mass-murder is justified without any moral qualms.