quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
Lane:

I have been to Israel many times. I have cousins there. One close cousin lived on a Kibbutz before moving to Las Vegas about 5 years ago. He carried a sidearm at all times. Automatic weapons are not carried by citizens, because until Oct 7 the terrorists never did.

The kibbutz he was on had a fence and a guard shack with 2 soldiers. It was far north and their worry was always the occasional rocket from Hezbollah (you know, that organization that Trump called "smart").

I never felt unsafe visiting Ricki.

About 14 days ago he headed back as his unit was called up and he is an officer (even though he is 70).

The Kibbutzim along the border have fences, soldiers assigned and armed civilians.

BUT, the Hamas butchers were well armed and thousands came across with but one purpose. Die a martyr and kill, rape and torture as many as they could before going down. No civilian with a hand gun could defend against hundreds of missiles, automatic weapons and trained terrorists.

Hamas must be destroyed so this can't happen again.

Don



The game has now changed forever.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
Lane:

I have been to Israel many times. I have cousins there. One close cousin lived on a Kibbutz before moving to Las Vegas about 5 years ago. He carried a sidearm at all times. Automatic weapons are not carried by citizens, because until Oct 7 the terrorists never did.

The kibbutz he was on had a fence and a guard shack with 2 soldiers. It was far north and their worry was always the occasional rocket from Hezbollah (you know, that organization that Trump called "smart").

I never felt unsafe visiting Ricki.

About 14 days ago he headed back as his unit was called up and he is an officer (even though he is 70).

The Kibbutzim along the border have fences, soldiers assigned and armed civilians.

BUT, the Hamas butchers were well armed and thousands came across with but one purpose. Die a martyr and kill, rape and torture as many as they could before going down. No civilian with a hand gun could defend against hundreds of missiles, automatic weapons and trained terrorists.

Hamas must be destroyed so this can't happen again.

Don



The game has now changed forever.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
To be clear if destroying Hamas resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths would that be acceptable to you?

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
And that is why there is nothing wrong to be armed better then just handgun ( good home armory )
That one time when you need it and don’t have it is the time when you get hurt or die
If Ukraine citizens were armed to their teeth, Russia may not have been so eager to attack
Again it is same old story again and again
I wonder if Mexican citizen could arm themselves with arms available like here in US, the cartels wouldn’t rule them as much

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
To be clear if destroying Hamas resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths would that be acceptable to you?

"To be clear" - BS.

It is clear that Hamas knew in advance that the results of its acts would result in tens of thousands of civilian deaths, and that was acceptable, if not planned.

Israel's goal of the complete destruction of Hamas is not equivalent IMO, regarding the "acceptable" civilian deaths, at least I hope not. Though the outcome may be the same and they will call it "necessary" or "collateral" or say they should have left when they were told, whatever, and still be unacceptable yet not forestalling.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
And that is why there is nothing wrong to be armed better then just handgun ( good home armory )
That one time when you need it and don’t have it is the time when you get hurt or die
If Ukraine citizens were armed to their teeth, Russia may not have been so eager to attack
Again it is same old story again and again
I wonder if Mexican citizen could arm themselves with arms available like here in US, the cartels wouldn’t rule them as much

Do I correctly remember that one of Zelensky's first moves was to open the armories and hand out AK-47 rifles to the citizenry?

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

Certainly Yes.

But any house that showed that kind of resistance would have been reduced by either heavy MG or missile fire in short order.

The failure was not in the civilians not being heavily armed, it was in Netanyahu ignoring intelligence warnings, including reportedly from Egypt, and shifting troops from facing Gaza to lean on the West Bank.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
And that is why there is nothing wrong to be armed better then just handgun ( good home armory )
That one time when you need it and don’t have it is the time when you get hurt or die
If Ukraine citizens were armed to their teeth, Russia may not have been so eager to attack
Again it is same old story again and again
I wonder if Mexican citizen could arm themselves with arms available like here in US, the cartels wouldn’t rule them as much

Do I correctly remember that one of Zelensky's first moves was to open the armories and hand out AK-47 rifles to the citizenry?

Edd was carrying one for a while, not sure if he still is.

To be fair no amount of AR armed citizens are going to deter Russia or any other national military.

Unless your citizenry also has training in the manufacture of IEDs and a supply of suitable artillery shells, mines, reasonable coms, is organised and with some degree of coordination there is only going to be one end result, tho it would doubtless be more satisfying to have something you could use to be able to take a few with you.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

Certainly Yes.

But any house that showed that kind of resistance would have been reduced by either heavy MG or missile fire in short order.

The failure was not in the civilians not being heavily armed, it was in Netanyahu ignoring intelligence warnings, including reportedly from Egypt, and shifting troops from facing Gaza to lean on the West Bank.

But, many if not most homes have safe-rooms that can hold up to rocket fire and thus might have saved them from RPG & MG fire if they were armed well enough to get there.

Also, if the civilian resistance were great enough...they could not eliminate them all.

Thank you kindly for the honest answer above...I think every honest person would rather have some viable defense.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

Certainly Yes.

But any house that showed that kind of resistance would have been reduced by either heavy MG or missile fire in short order.

The failure was not in the civilians not being heavily armed, it was in Netanyahu ignoring intelligence warnings, including reportedly from Egypt, and shifting troops from facing Gaza to lean on the West Bank.

But, many if not most homes have safe-rooms that can hold up to rocket fire and thus might have saved them from RPG & MG fire if they were armed well enough to get there.

Also, if the civilian resistance were great enough...they could not eliminate them all.

Thank you kindly for the honest answer above...I think every honest person would rather have some viable defense.

I would not expect to "win" against the sort of firepower Hamas brought on this mission, except in my own personal definition of "winning": If I kill two I win because they can only kill me once.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

Certainly Yes.

But any house that showed that kind of resistance would have been reduced by either heavy MG or missile fire in short order.

The failure was not in the civilians not being heavily armed, it was in Netanyahu ignoring intelligence warnings, including reportedly from Egypt, and shifting troops from facing Gaza to lean on the West Bank.

But, many if not most homes have safe-rooms that can hold up to rocket fire and thus might have saved them from RPG & MG fire if they were armed well enough to get there.

Also, if the civilian resistance were great enough...they could not eliminate them all.

Thank you kindly for the honest answer above...I think every honest person would rather have some viable defense.

I would not expect to "win" against the sort of firepower Hamas brought on this mission, except in my own personal definition of "winning": If I kill two I win because they can only kill me once.

They can kill you but... they're not allowed to eat you...

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Or identify as a pig, and get double revenge.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Wait, ...... pigs, or Muslims?????

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
Lane:

I have been to Israel many times. I have cousins there. One close cousin lived on a Kibbutz before moving to Las Vegas about 5 years ago. He carried a sidearm at all times. Automatic weapons are not carried by citizens, because until Oct 7 the terrorists never did.

The kibbutz he was on had a fence and a guard shack with 2 soldiers. It was far north and their worry was always the occasional rocket from Hezbollah (you know, that organization that Trump called "smart").

I never felt unsafe visiting Ricki.

About 14 days ago he headed back as his unit was called up and he is an officer (even though he is 70).

The Kibbutzim along the border have fences, soldiers assigned and armed civilians.

BUT, the Hamas butchers were well armed and thousands came across with but one purpose. Die a martyr and kill, rape and torture as many as they could before going down. No civilian with a hand gun could defend against hundreds of missiles, automatic weapons and trained terrorists.

Hamas must be destroyed so this can't happen again.

Don



The game has now changed forever.

To be clear if destroying Hamas resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths would that be acceptable to you?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Don,
Is it possible for a family to own an AR equivalent rifle in Israel?

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Don,
Is it possible for a family to own an AR equivalent rifle in Israel?

No. Single shot rifles yes. The purpose of each Kibbutz having a soldier and locked armory for trained reservists to use failed except in a few cases.

I suspect things are going to change now.

And then there is Inbar Lieberman. A hero.

Kibbutz Nir fights off butchers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
And that is why there is nothing wrong to be armed better then just handgun ( good home armory )
That one time when you need it and don’t have it is the time when you get hurt or die
If Ukraine citizens were armed to their teeth, Russia may not have been so eager to attack
Again it is same old story again and again
I wonder if Mexican citizen could arm themselves with arms available like here in US, the cartels wouldn’t rule them as much

Do I correctly remember that one of Zelensky's first moves was to open the armories and hand out AK-47 rifles to the citizenry?

Edd was carrying one for a while, not sure if he still is.

To be fair no amount of AR armed citizens are going to deter Russia or any other national military.

Unless your citizenry also has training in the manufacture of IEDs and a supply of suitable artillery shells, mines, reasonable coms, is organised and with some degree of coordination there is only going to be one end result, tho it would doubtless be more satisfying to have something you could use to be able to take a few with you.