quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
And that is why there is nothing wrong to be armed better then just handgun ( good home armory )
That one time when you need it and don’t have it is the time when you get hurt or die
If Ukraine citizens were armed to their teeth, Russia may not have been so eager to attack
Again it is same old story again and again
I wonder if Mexican citizen could arm themselves with arms available like here in US, the cartels wouldn’t rule them as much

Do I correctly remember that one of Zelensky's first moves was to open the armories and hand out AK-47 rifles to the citizenry?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
If i were in a kibbutz under attack, I'd rather be sent to hell fighting back, than live forever on my knees

further, RPGs tend to have low rates of fire, and a fairly high signature, when it's face to face on a farm.

yes, hamas has heavy MGs - though most were armed with small arms - especially the evil b@astards in their "air force"

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
The Hamas killers had RPGs and heavy machine guns.

Jeff,
Had you been living along the periphery of the Gaza Strip when this occurred and saw it unfolding…would you have rather had an AR-15 or AR-10 and a chest-webbing with extra high-capacity magazines are not?

Simple question…yes or no.

Certainly Yes.

But any house that showed that kind of resistance would have been reduced by either heavy MG or missile fire in short order.

The failure was not in the civilians not being heavily armed, it was in Netanyahu ignoring intelligence warnings, including reportedly from Egypt, and shifting troops from facing Gaza to lean on the West Bank.

But, many if not most homes have safe-rooms that can hold up to rocket fire and thus might have saved them from RPG & MG fire if they were armed well enough to get there.

Also, if the civilian resistance were great enough...they could not eliminate them all.

Thank you kindly for the honest answer above...I think every honest person would rather have some viable defense.

I would not expect to "win" against the sort of firepower Hamas brought on this mission, except in my own personal definition of "winning": If I kill two I win because they can only kill me once.

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
Lane:

I have been to Israel many times. I have cousins there. One close cousin lived on a Kibbutz before moving to Las Vegas about 5 years ago. He carried a sidearm at all times. Automatic weapons are not carried by citizens, because until Oct 7 the terrorists never did.

The kibbutz he was on had a fence and a guard shack with 2 soldiers. It was far north and their worry was always the occasional rocket from Hezbollah (you know, that organization that Trump called "smart").

I never felt unsafe visiting Ricki.

About 14 days ago he headed back as his unit was called up and he is an officer (even though he is 70).

The Kibbutzim along the border have fences, soldiers assigned and armed civilians.

BUT, the Hamas butchers were well armed and thousands came across with but one purpose. Die a martyr and kill, rape and torture as many as they could before going down. No civilian with a hand gun could defend against hundreds of missiles, automatic weapons and trained terrorists.

Hamas must be destroyed so this can't happen again.

Don



The game has now changed forever.

To be clear if destroying Hamas resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths would that be acceptable to you?

To be clear, yes. They built their tunnels under refugee housing. They fired their missiles from hospitals and mosques. It's on them, not Israel.

When the US bombed afghan and Iraqi civilians I don't recall you speaking up. To be clear, when the US kills civilians it's acceptable to you but when the Jewish state does it, it's not? What about Russia raping and killing Ukrainians? Where was your "moral" outrage last year.

Don

quote:

Israel has been presented with a terrible and difficult dilemma

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Human shields is standard Hamas practice. Tough shit when they get killed but they allowed Hamas to put their infrastructure in civilian facilities.

~Ann

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Don, to give the average no political Palestinian their due… I don’t think they get a choice. Disagree with the Hamas leadership, you get killed and your family becomes suicide bombers.

Hamas is a lot like the Nazis. At one point they may have had some claim to legitimacy, but they have used the power of government to make themselves dictators. They use propaganda to cause their subjects to support them blindly.

And it’s going to take something like postwar Germany to fix it.

The question is, is Israel making Weimar Republic mk II or modern Germany out of the Palestinians?

And yes, I realize how loaded the question is to a Jewish person.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Israel has every right and a moral duty to go over and eradicate Hamas.

Israel, as a civilized country and a solid member of the world community has no right to commit war crimes.

Israel has been presented with a terrible and difficult dilemma

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Human shields is standard Hamas practice. Tough shit when they get killed but they allowed Hamas to put their infrastructure in civilian facilities.

The unfortunate truth. It seems there will be many sad casualties but maybe that is what it will take, a large loss of innocent life, for the so-called civilians to change their philosophies and remove such overlords in the end.

I see no other way, personally. This is because life is clearly been made cheap there. Tragic.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Human shields is standard Hamas practice. Tough shit when they get killed but they allowed Hamas to put their infrastructure in civilian facilities.

The unfortunate truth. It seems there will be many sad casualties but maybe that is what it will take, a large loss of innocent life, for the so-called civilians to change their philosophies and remove such overlords in the end.

I see no other way, personally. This is because life is clearly been made cheap there. Tragic.

The other side of the coin is that it will create thousands more people who hate Israel and be the best recruitment drive Hamass could ever wish for.

Something like half of the population of the Gaza Strip are under the age of 20. That's a hell of a lot of young people to fill with hatred as their parents/brothers or sisters are killed or maimed. It might be an uphill struggle to get them to see the cause/effect of torturing and murdering Israeli civilians..

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I think for me the two overriding questions are.

If the world calls for a ceasefire, what do they hope will be the result? peace talks?

which leads too.

Has Hamas ever come too the table for peace talks?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Human shields is standard Hamas practice. Tough shit when they get killed but they allowed Hamas to put their infrastructure in civilian facilities.

The unfortunate truth. It seems there will be many sad casualties but maybe that is what it will take, a large loss of innocent life, for the so-called civilians to change their philosophies and remove such overlords in the end.

I see no other way, personally. This is because life is clearly been made cheap there. Tragic.

The other side of the coin is that it will create thousands more people who hate Israel and be the best recruitment drive Hamass could ever wish for.

Something like half of the population of the Gaza Strip are under the age of 20. That's a hell of a lot of young people to fill with hatred as their parents/brothers or sisters are killed or maimed. It might be an uphill struggle to get them to see the cause/effect of torturing and murdering Israeli civilians..

Or, as with Hiroshima and Nagasaki the young people are convinced that war is to terrible a cost.

The mistake the West has repeatedly made with Islamic terrorism is to make effort to coddle and redeem. I can think of no incident in any of our recent wars that showed The Caliphate that it just wasn't worth it. Maybe today is a good day to start.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Japan was isolated. Its allies had been defeated.

Hamas has allies egging it forward who wont be affected by palestines destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Given previous posts of yours, im surprised you are advocating for getting involved.

Wheres that war dept when its Ukraine?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Japan was isolated. Its allies had been defeated.

Hamas has allies egging it forward who wont be affected by palestines destruction.