The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Freedom “of” Religion NOT Freedom “from” ReligionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
If you want religion out of schools, close the schools. You are stating everyone needs to go there. Religious included. If there is no place for religion in the school, you are admitting you are infringing on the religious folks right to freedom of religion. I don’t care what you believe. But I expect you to give me the same consideration. If Betty wants to mutter a prayer before 3rd period English, who cares? If the Muslim kids want to wash their feet and bow towards Mecca and pray before lunch at school, why should we stop them? And if a teacher wishes to wear a crucifix, who cares? | |||
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| One of Us |
Yep. Thank goodness that God invented science so we could figure out the truth!!!! Remember " all will be revealed in time"...... . | |||
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| One of Us |
Sensible people agree.......extremists don't. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sure, just close the schools, just like Government. A better idea would be for those of you who feel that religion should be part of children's education to send your children to private religious schools. My mother and her siblings went to Catholic school, not a novel concept. Keep prayer out of public schools in no way discriminants against the religious. I don't care what you believe but I expect you to give me the same consideration. Maybe do your praying on your own time and dime and not the public's? | |||
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| One of Us |
Interesting....I had thought God had given man the tools to invent science. Maybe teach about God in Sunday School? | |||
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| One of Us |
A religious person generally takes it quite seriously… and no, I don’t consider myself all that religious. Therefor, not allowing them to have a religious thought seems a distinct intrusion. You are insisting they pay for this. You are also insisting that they be educated. Look at the hoops for homeschooling (although I’m not a fan of homeschooling). One thing that does frost my rump on this is that the schools generally are pretty good on providing kosher/Hallal food and places for the Muslim/Jewish kids to pray… and heaven help you if you interfere with it! But interfere with a Christian prayer? That’s required. Kids are excused for nonchristian religious activities, but get the so called Christian ones off (and they get renamed so as to not offend). We are talking different things. I am not saying teaching a religion in school, rather, you are stating that students and staff may not pray/have any religious expression in school. Although I have no issues with a comparative religion class, and if in charge, I would have examples of each religion in the community asked if they would like to send a representative to discuss their beliefs. You want to teach kindness etc in schools? How in blazes can you do a fair job of that by totally ignoring religion and its contribution? Teaching a concept involves multiple avenues of thought. One kid might get the religious aspect, another a humanist one, and a third a different religion altogether. Look how they teach simple addition now- the kids are required to learn multiple ways to do it, and demonstrate them. In effect, you are mandating practicing humanism in school for the Christian kids, but not other religions. To me, that’s a clear violation of the intent of the 1st amendment.
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| One of Us |
Baloney! I'm not saying Christian kids cannot pray in school, I'm saying prayers distributed through public schools is wrong. A Christian kid feels like praying during study hall? Sure, why not? Go for it. I see zero issue with that. Study hall teacher reading "The Lord's Prayer" aloud and having students join in? No way. I couldn't care less what a teacher or student does on their time, pray away. When taxpayers are paying for that time and that school then religion has no place. Yeah, I think kids should be able to go to public school without religious indoctrination, by no means should you need to homeschool your kid to avoid them being exposed to religious beliefs you may or may not agree with. Kindness can certainly be taught without religion. Where do you get these ideas? I mean really. You do not need God in your life to feel empathy. Some of the nicest, kindest people I know are Atheists. Likewise, some of the most rotten, vile individuals I have had the displeasure of crossing paths with are more than happy to tell what good Christians they are. Being exposed to religion is sure did not give those Catholic Priests that were molesting children much empathy now did it? | |||
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| One of Us |
We prayed a lot in school, on school grounds. What one could not do was lead a prayer during class instruction or be required to attend or say any prayers. That is enough and the way it should be for reasons stated previously. I agree entirely with SKB’s post above. I have nothing more to add to it. | |||
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| One of Us |
So exactly what do you pro-prayer people want? A special place or mat like the Muslim kids get, use of which is part of their belief? I was raised by devout Christian parents, and taught that I could pray anytime, anywhere. Didn't need a mat. Was my religious education in error? Why should we be jealous of the mats then? Why can't religious kids pray in study hall, silently to themselves? Or even in class, if their attention wanders from the assigned subject. I think you want a teacher or principle to recite a prayer in class. To the students. And that I object to. In the name of inclusiveness, we'd have to allow every religion to take a turn. I don't want my child's head stuffed full of Scientology nonsense, in a public school of all places. Or the nonsense of a few other faiths, like creation in six days or Mohammed splitting the moon in half. Keep it to yourselves and your churches, temples, mosques, and synagogues, please. | |||
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One of Us |
Just what teachers need today . . . to have to accommodate the Christians wanting prayer time, the Muslims wanting a call to prayer and prayer mats, the native Americans wanting their form of worship, etc. Is the school supposed to pick a religion, maybe rotate religious expressions weekly, accommodate multiple forms of expression, etc.? It's nonsense. School is a time and place to learn math, English, reading, history et al. (which many seem to be failing at nowadays anyway) not a time for religious expressions. If the parents disagree, send their kids to a parochial school or home school. Mike | |||
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One of Us |
Nobody I know of wants that. ^^^ What I would like to see (already this way at my sons public school) is to let like minded majorities have in their schools the activities they see fit for their community. Like I said…it already happens in many. Last night I was at a school board meeting in the elementary library of the system my son now attends. First thing we did when the meeting was called to order was to say the national and state pledges and then have a Christian prayer. Communities should be able to decide via their boards. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Like minded majority is the problem public school is for all, and the school as a State Actor csnnot endorse one religion over the other. Like I said, Christians can pray at school. We had our group. We prayed on campus, and even had speakers. No one was pressured, nor required to go, and it was not allowed to be done out loud diluting instructions. | |||
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One of Us |
Lane, do you honestly believe that public prayer in school is going to make a difference in a child’s development? Do you have any scientific data to support such a strange notion? Of course, you don’t. This is just another example of misguided theories, or more likely; another instance where a certain group wants to exert its power over another group. | |||
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| One of Us |
. . . minorities be damned. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Doc, these loony, hippy throwbacks...in first period when the day started and we said the U.S.pledge, the Texas pledge and the prayer where good! We know it! It wasn't a catholic, protestant, Jewish or Muslim prayer....it was just a prayer..... Reminding us of our allegiance to our great country and our state. Reminding is of the teachings of pur lord. I can not for the life of me see how that hurt a single damned thing and I can see how it could help a lot! | |||
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| One of Us |
So you are in favor of the State forcing compelled speech? That would be against the Constitution. And you wonder why the term Fascism gets used. So long as it is the words approved by the Right Minded, Majority that is being forced by the State to be said, you are okay with the State forcing such speech. | |||
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| One of Us |
Compelled to is wrong. Just as compelled not to is wrong. To me, it’s up to the individual districts if they want to carve out a time that the students may use to pray if they wish. If not, then fine… but they cannot say that kids can’t pray on their own, and they cannot say that the kid has to recite a certain prayer. It’s not a violation of the constitution if there is a mural of Moses coming down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments in a courthouse (nor would it be if it was a picture of Mohammed receiving sharia law, but I doubt a Muslim would do that, as it’s against their religion…) or, for that matter, a Mormon version of it. If the local community wants to pay an artist to do that, fine, I don’t find that a violation of the constitution (but it is a violation of financial prudence IMO). That is fundamentally my issue- the liberal busybodies who want to ban any expression by individuals at school- which is a horse of a very different color from forcing people to pray. I do find it difficult if not impossible to teach morality without acknowledging the role religion has for some people in their morality. Some people view all of their morality coming from their religious beliefs. If this is not acknowledged, you are violating their religious freedom. That doesn’t mean you can’t teach the concept, but it does mean that it’s something that has to be acknowledged. Frankly, if a kid has no empathy or sense of right and wrong by the time he gets to school, from my understanding of human development, it’s probably too late to instil it anyhow. All the class really should be is a tripwire to identify kids that lack it and target them for interventions (to protect others…) | |||
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| One of Us |
And no one has said Christian students cannot pray. Just that it cannot happen during class and lead by the school. | |||
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| One of Us |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
SC blathers on ad nauseam about the majority carrying the day. Minorities are not hurt and they have the option of transferring to a like minded system. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Majority rule restricted by protections for minority rights. It is called the rule of law. It exists to protect all equally in the public sphere. | |||
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| One of Us |
I get the concept. Believe it is misapplied here. My hope is the current court corrects it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
My hope is you continue to loose. You may understand the concept. You do not respect it nor understand why it exists. | |||
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| One of Us |
Loosen the man bun! I was never, nor were you, "forced" to say a prayer on school.... | |||
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| One of Us |
You are really obsessed with my hair. How about you find some respect for minorities and reject President Trump, and stop advocating for the State to compel other people’s children to conform to the majority religion. One day or may not be the majority religion. | |||
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| One of Us |
I do understand but you are correct… …I have zero respect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is the fundamental difference, and regardless of your lack of respect, the important part is the law and greater culture does respect the concept. I hope it stays that way. | |||
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| One of Us |
The fundamental difference is this: I have little respect for or trust in “man’s” ever-changing rules. I have the ultimate respect for and trust in my Lord and Savior’s rules. Where ever I stand on earth…I know where I stand in the book of the Lamb. That is all that is important to me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
The Fundamental difference is you want through the state to impose your view of Hod at the expense of the protection for those who do not agree with you because you think your way is right and American. When your view is actually the most UnAmerican and extends the power of the state into our most private lives. As always, not very libertarian of you. You want the State to force everyone to conform to your version of the Bool of the Lamb. No sir. | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually what I want IS totally Libertarian. In regards to faith/prayer…simply stay away. If schools want to have prayer so be it. If they don’t so be it. If a courthouse in Alabama wants to display the Ten-Commandments fine. If others don’t fine. You want them to dictate that they can’t. I don’t see that as Constitutional. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| Administrator |
Problem is many students have different religions. Which one do you teach? Here, we have various schools in addition to government schools. Schools are only required to provide Islamic study periods to Muslim students. Others do whatever the school, or parents, ask. All our schools have an open door policy. That means a parent can go to school during term time and see their children. I have done that many times when my daughter was in attendance. | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually, they can and I did. The State had to be neutral in terms of religion because the law is open to all. No one is saying Christian students cannot pray. They are saying the school as an extension of the state cannot endorse that faith or force others to be subject to it by leading religious mandates. | |||
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| One of Us |
What Doc is talking about is not teaching religion. I do like the fact that at your schools the parents can visit the school any time. | |||
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| One of Us |
Please explain how prayer in public schools is not teaching religion. You are full of shit and you know it. Lane went on and on about the need to put God in these kids life, what is that if not teaching religion? You are about as truthful as McConnell when he was commenting on seating Supreme Court Justices, which is to say you lack any sense of integrity. All you care about is pushing forth your world view onto others, whether they agree or not does not matter to you. A modern day Crusader with no respect for the rights of those who see the world differently. | |||
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| One of Us |
Typical culture war B.S. "Jesus is like duct tape, he fixes everything" RWH with his tongue firmly in his cheek. What matters to me is that we remain free of Government endorsed religion. | |||
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| One of Us |
Let's look at several scenarios and see where we come down, shall we? 1. Teacher or principal announces they will recite a prayer before an assemblage of students, and proceeds to do so, with others joining in. - In my vote, this is wrong and would violate the First Amendment's establishment clause. The courts have agreed, I believe. I would maybe fight it at the school board level. 2. Teacher or principal announces a moment of silence for prayer. - Don't know what the courts make of this scenario, but I think it's a First Amendment violation. 3. Teacher or principal announces a moment of silence "for prayer or quiet reflection." This doesn't bother me, and I'd never kick up a fuss about it. Everyone knows some people like to pray, others don't. What's wrong with recognizing that fact for a moment of silence? | |||
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| One of Us |
I see no reason for any of the scenarios . . . at school. Let school be the place where we focus on educating the students, a task we are already seriously deficient in. Let the students pray or have quiet reflection at home, in church, in the car before school, on the bus before school, walking to school, etc. I understand the purpose of teaching math in a school. I understand the purpose of students having recess at school. I even understand the purpose of reciting the pledge of allegiance at school since we share a common country. I have no idea what the purpose of saying a prayer at school is unless it is to in some small way try to instill a sense of uniformity in religious beliefs despite the fact that no such uniformity exists in society. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Some of the most academically proficient schools in the nation are parochial schools — proving both academics and faith can subside parallel efficiently. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
 It would serve the exact same purpose as a prayer said anywhere else. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Then send your kid to a parochial school if you desire religion to be part of the education that they receive. Why is it you feel the need to push your beliefs upon others? If you ever wonder why participation in religion has declined in America, look no farther than your own posts. Nobody likes having religion pushed upon them, some people get darn right cranky about it. I'm one of them. Keep it to yourself and your family, quite simple really. | |||
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