The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum A question re: chronology of events at the Capitol.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Agreed it’s all bad. | |||
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One of Us |
That is one of the dumber rationalizations you have posted. Seriously, if you can see no substantive difference between a mob rioting and looting in some impoverished minority community and a group of protesters invading the seat of government as Congress attempts to discharge a Constitutionally mandated election function there are just no lengths you are unwilling to go to to try and create a completely bogus and irrational false equivalency. Mike | |||
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I can see some differences, sure. But fundamentally the riots were not caused by folks with a plan to stop the transition of government. If you can prove that Trump actually planned it and orchestrated it as a way of staying in, convict him. I am convincible to that, but you need evidence that hasn’t been made public. It seems to me that the few actors who were trying to do something more than express their list of grievances have been charged with crimes worse than just rioting. You don’t think a bunch of BLM types were conspiring to hold riots in multiple places and gain political power and money over the rioting in Minneapolis? BTW, Minneapolis is not some poor minority community. It may not be as large as DFW, but it’s probably comparible per capita, if not wealthier. I suspect that my views on this are closer to the norm in the US than yours are.
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Let’s see Jines you old genius; on one hand you’ve got a large collection of disparate individuals with no plan or general organization nor weaponry many of whom were let into the Capitol by CP and on the other hand you had months of actual looting and rioting causing billions in actual damages where D prosecutors refused to prosecute and none other than Cameltoe Harris herself helped create a bail fund for such people. You’ve got your priorities muddled up old son. But that’s about par for you. Keep it up. | |||
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I am confident that most thinking individuals can appreciate a material and substantive difference between rioters looting a clothing store and rioters attempting to break down the doors to the floor of the House and Senate. You embarrass yourself with efforts to paint the two incidents as being remotely similar. Mike | |||
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A riot is a riot. If it was a coup attempt that had any chance of going somewhere I’d buy your point. If delaying me from going somewhere due to riots is meaningless, then a few minutes delay in completing the formal process is equally meaningless. Or do you think the country is so weak and morally bankrupt that these guys could have kept Trump in office if they would have had a few breaks go their way? Sorry. No. This was no more serious on a national scale than any of the 60’s-70’s crap. | |||
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Two guys in bar get drunk, get into an argument and have a fight. Two Senators get into an argument on the Senate floor and start fighting. Both actions are equally repugnant in your view? A fight is a fight? Some of you never seem to tire of being apologists and trying to rationalize the irrational. Mike | |||
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Moderator |
but, Mike -- let's get real .. i'd likely pay to watch senators having a slug fest opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Among other things you should learn more about is the Law concerning elections. If Speaker Pelosi hadn't gotten the session reconvened and the vote certified the night of the 6th Republicans would have invoked a "contingent election" as provided for in the Constitution on the 7th, where the House elects a President and each State delegation has 1 vote. Even if Cheney had voted Wyoming's vote for Biden Trump would have won 26-24. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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When you try to use violence to stop the peaceful transition of power, and the setting President does nothing to stop that violence. I have a serious problem w that and anyone who minimizes that. There is no If to this. | |||
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And how does your assertion mesh with the fact that CP were seen on video surveillance letting people into the Capitol? | |||
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Because we have all seen it and 500 plus convictions with 170 odd felony convictions. You can go watch the mob assault on the Capital if you wish. There is no if to it. | |||
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What nonsense. These revisionist histories of what happened at the Capital started literally the day after the event. What happened was so anti-American, so anti-democracy and so repugnant that the republicans had to start making up alternative narratives to try to minimize the damage to trump and the rest of the GOP. The fact that your seditionist buddies weren't successful is irrelevant to the inquiry. They staged a riot at the Capital in an effort to overturn the result of a general election. That was the self-admitted purpose. Arguing that it doesn't matter because they weren't successful is like saying bank robbers ought not be prosecuted criminally because they were so stupid they left the money at the bank. Absurd. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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It was admitted by some, and proven that some had that goal. That there are not tens of thousands of sedition convictions show that not even a majority of the rioters were there with the intent of stopping the transition of power. Is anyone using violence for political reasons serious and concerning? Absolutely. Is it a uniquely Republican issue? No. Do I have issues with Trump? Yes. But then I have issues with Biden as well. Of the folks in the race at this moment, I prefer Haley, Manchin if he’s in, and RFK jr in that order. But it looks like it’s going to be Trump or Biden. Both are disenfranchising to me. | |||
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If the police allowed someone in my home and they burglarized my home it is still burglary. If the police allowed someone to murder me it is still murder. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sedition If the police let people into the Capitol that were intent on Sedition they are still committing Sedition. | |||
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We watched it live. Again 170 odd felony convictions due to violence designed to keep President Trump in power. A total of 700 odd convictions of individuals who violated the law in a mob attack on the Capital. The reason they were there was to prevent the transfer of power. It is a uniquely a Republican issue because the Republicans, like yourself, attempt to minimize and rationalize Jan 6. Jan 6 being the behavior of President Trump that caused the powder keg. The violence of those who do acted, and the non-response by President Trump to stop it. It is uniquely Republican bc Republicans are set to renominate President Trump post Jan 6. In large part, due to the minimization by folks like you. In large part, the continued election lies by folks like JTex and Bluefish. It is uniquely Republican because this violence, and this permissiveness by the transitioning president was preformed at and by the Right. There is no comparison between President Biden and the man who created the lie of election theft, that moved citizens to violence to keep him in power, and who did nothing to stop the violence meant to keep him in power. It is the ultimate, unforgivable political sin. It being as a president to not transition power to the next peacefully with grace. I’m so going, the defeated President refuses to defend my Constitution, my election, my Congress, my Capital from violence designed to keep that defeated president in power. That is what happened. There is no making that a small thing. | |||
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This. You trumptards should read it twice. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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 "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Well stated. Not sure which group I find more reprehensible those that openly defend what took place on January 6 or those that serve up apologist-like excuses seeking to minimize what took place. Mike | |||
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And your method of dealing with it left the Republican Party to Trump. If we get 4 more years of Trump it’s the “conservatives” like you that we can thank for it. I’m still a Republican. Maybe disaffected. Maybe not willing to vote Trump regardless… But not supporting the joke that is Biden or the democrats. Folks like Dr. Easter are probably upset that I’m handing my vote to the democrats by not voting Trump. Folks like Mike Mitchell think I’m a moron because I refuse to support Biden. Again, you’re a lawyer. How many convictions for sedition/seditious conspiracy? Not even 1% of the crowd. So while they were badly behaving and rioting, simple logic points out that you can’t say they all intended to disrupt the legal process. We sentenced the seditious conspirators to jail terms that are longer than what you get folks convicted of killing someone in your job. That sounds like severe punishment to me. Your condemnation of all republicans for the sins of a very small few is abhorrent. You make fun of Dr. Easter for saying all democrats are bad. Look in the mirror.
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I see when did not rebut anything. I do not think you are a moron for refusing to support Biden. I take issue with your minimizing Jan 6, President Trump, and false equivalency among those three entities. You, Dr. Easter, JTex, and Bluefish allowed President Trump to become the power of the GOO; even as President Trump and MAGA/Christian Nationalist policies caused defeat. This became possible because of the support of election lies, support for President Trump, and minimizing. Now, President Trump’s lies are perceived as truth by most on the Right bc of folks like you minimizing and done repeating those lies. Again, 170 plus FELONY convictions. Over 700 convictions total. We know why they were there. It was not to get autographs. Keep minimizing. There is no if to it. There is no comparison between President Biden and President Trump. And no we did not. Intentional, capital murder (murder with a stationary aggravator) in KY is Life to death. That is the sentence range. Class A intentional murder is 20 to life parallel eligible at 25 years if sentenced to life. Those are for one account. Your assertion is wrong. | |||
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Did I say capital murder? Most killings aren't some homophobe killing a gay guy and then stating they "tortured the SOB to get the rest of us to join them in their glorious jihad." How long would someone serve for manslaughter? How long until parole for third degree murder? (I am not sure if you have such a thing) We have had folks getting out on parole in less than a year here in MN for that. The guys who got seditious conspiracy convictions are serving most of their sentence without parole. You are loading the book towards time by saying capital murder or whatever class A intentional murder is--- and how quickly do they get parole if sentenced to 20 years? I read somewhere that in Kentucky they are eligible for parole after serving a minimum of 15% of their sentence... so supposedly a 20 year sentence is what, 18 months? Sure not all (or maybe even a majority) get out that quickly, but I suspect most don't serve half... From what I read, the difference between murder and manslaughter in KY is "malice"- which is probably somewhat difficult to prove. How about "reckless homicide"? (1 to 5 year sentence if I read that right- for killing someone.) If the 15% applies to that they can get out in less than 1 month if the stars align for them. And in looking that up with brother Google, it looks like you have a pretty big group of folks who think these should be reduced... and despite the reductions in sentences, your prison population is growing... rapidly. The point being is that the folks who actually did something more than just riot ARE serving terms longer than you would get for killing someone. 170 felony convictions but how many separate individuals? Didn't that oathkeeper guy have multiple felony convictions out of his role on 1/6? If the crowd at Trump's "speech" was 20,000, that's less than 1% were convicted of any felony per your stats. (I have seen numbers larger than that and smaller than that on the internet, and have no idea how many convictions or different people being convicted other than they do seem to agree that there were less than 1500 folks arrested total to date. If they were provably there because they wanted to do something other than protest what they (wrongly) thought was a wrong result of an election then they were convicted of something more serious than riot related charges. Note that they claim that over half of the arrested folks have not been convicted as of yet... quite a long time for charges that should be open and shut, correct? Here you were, you were arrested here, here is the video footage of you committing these acts... pretty hard to not get that conviction for trespass, or riot or, whatever. Seems to me that they would be only sitting on it if they either were hoping to get more damning evidence for a higher level charge, or that they don't have nearly the open and shut case and because they have to give what they have to the defense it isn't going too far unless someone wants to plead out to a lesser charge to get it to just go away. I also read that they are rapidly approaching the statute of limitations on these cases, so it would seem that the half plus arrests that have not gone to court are likely not going to at all. I admit I supported Trump in the prior two elections and his behavior has made me refuse to support him further- he clearly did not live up to his obligations under his oath of office. As you admit you supported him as well in the past, you also allowed him to take control. Like me you don't want him back in office... but correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to have decided that you are now a democrat until everyone else boots Trump out rather than stay in the party and try and get rid of him from within, in other words, man up and try and correct your mistake... which I am trying to do, but admittedly I'm not having much luck convincing the Trumpers who seem to think that I am not engaging in "false equivalency" but rather that I have been bamboozled by the media who are putting out all kinds of lies, and that I am not smart enough to see these lies (like Trump is.) We can agree that what happened was bad and not American in the traditional sense. I do agree that Trump is causing a lot of the defeats the GOP is getting in elections. I'm not so certain its the contents of the policies (because Trump is always pretty vague about the actual policy) as much as its a referendum on Trump himself. He is identified as what folks are supporting and the democrats and the press are doing a pretty good job of propagandizing anything that he supports is bad regardless of what it is. That is my concern. Trump himself is an idiot, but nationalism itself is not bad... he's giving it a bad name. A lot of what you term false equivalency isn't factually false, its your opinion that it is not equivalent. I'm not going to argue your opinion other than to state it is your opinion, not a fact. As to "my minimizing allowing folks to believe the lies" I think the reverse is actually more correct... that the attempts to make it seem like the end of the republic and the overt exaggeration of what happened is making folks not believe it is as bad as it really was... which is worse than what Trump says it was, but better than what the left claims it was. If the south's rebellion was as well organized and planned as this was, John Brown would have won the civil war when he staged his raid on Harper's Ferry. (and yes, I know that Brown's raid targeted the federal government arsenal and was put down by the federal forces at the time).
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One of Us |
As always the voice of reason^^^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Federal sentencing system is way different than states. Federal inmates serve 85% of their sentence. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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| One of Us |
Burglary Scott has a breaking and entering component to it not being let in. If the police for reasons which make no sense in your example let someone into your home without permission it would be trespassing. It might morph into theft but it’s not likely burglary. The point is the CP permitted entry. I’m sure you got that part. | |||
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| One of Us |
Breaking isn't required. Don't have to actually take anything either. Don't even have to plan to take anything, it's enough to intend to assault someone or commit any felony, including sexual assault. Here is the definition in Texas: Under Texas Penal Code 30.02, an individual commits burglary if he or she, without consent of the owner, enters a building or structure with the intent of committing a felony, theft, or assault. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Burgerky is trespass into a building w the intent to commit any crime. The level of burglary depends on the type of building. The exception is burglary 1st which looks at the person’s actions in entering and leaving. It is sufficient to merely enter unlawfully. Breaking as the common law rule has been largely abandoned by most states through statute. Krs 511.020 is burglary 1st a Class B felony. Now, so doing when in a state of declared emergency it elevates to a Class A Felony in KY. That is bc burglary is a crime of violence. 1) A person is guilty of burglary in the first degree when, with the intent to commit a crime, he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building, and when in effecting entry or while in the building or in the immediate flight therefrom, he or she or another participant in the crime: (a) Is armed with explosives or a deadly weapon; (b) Causes physical injury to any person who is not a participant in the crime; or (c) Uses or threatens the use of a dangerous instrument against any person who is not a participant in the crime. (2) Burglary in the first degree is a Class B felony, unless the offense occurs during a declared emergency as defined by KRS 39A.020 arising from a natural or man- made disaster, within the area covered by the emergency declaration, and within the area impacted by the disaster, in which case it is a Class A felony. Again, the factors in common across all degrees in KY are: 1) mere entrench or remaining, 2) Into a building (defined elsewhere in statute and caselaw), And 3) Intent to commit any other crime. This includes a misdemeanor. We can infer intent and reach that reference through circumstantial evidence. Such as person X gains entry with a whole bunch of people. The bunch of people are chatting to hang the person who works at the building. | |||
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| One of Us |
This is all quite interesting. I dont know why all 2000, if that is the number who went in to the capitol were not charged? Also funny that Mike M claims breaking into anywhere is wrong.... But thought illegals here on the northern border breaking into a shed, garage or empty house is fine? They take what they can find, they shit in the corner and burned one garage down when they built a fire on the wood floor inside. All OK with Mike as they are illegals I guess. | |||
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| One of Us |
Were all 2000 detained, identified and charged? Again, just because they may not have been doesn't mean they aren't guilty. I gather that in the hypothetical you mentioned you believe the perps guilty regardless law enforcement documentation. Mike's personal bias or opinion has as little to do with the law as yours or especially mine. Did they do it? What was their intention while perpetrating? If a murderer commits murder, regardless blessings by law enforcement and the public, it's still murder. That the local sheriff as well as the gathered Klansmen cheered while that goddamn nigger got hung under the big oak tree doesn't make murdering that goddamned nigger ok. | |||
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Your reading alot into a question Scott. I wondered if 2000 went in unwelcomed, why they were not all guilty? If you want to stretch that into something more than it is, go ahead. | |||
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Federal Law Enforcement are still looking to identify Jan 6 preps. | |||
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Another violent, mob attempt to overthrow the legitimate government that had no chance of succeeding: The Beer Hall Putsch. The argument being they had no chance of an actually succeeding is foolish. | |||
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Link I don't know exactly how that is not admitting to Obstruction of Justice. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Back in the early 2000's there was a fellow over in King Salmon AK that conspired with Islamic terrorists in Anchorage AK to bomb and shoot public officials around Alaska. The King Salmon guy didn't know he was conspiring with under cover federal agents. So he flew into Anchorage for a meeting with his fellow "terrorists" to receive his weapons and carry out the bombing and shooting only to be arrested and go to prison. This planned crime had no chance of succeeding so why would he be considered or convicted as a criminal? | |||
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WTF are you talking about? Post up anything I've ever said about tolerating illegal activities by undocumented workers. Other than the fact that they commit crimes at a rate that is significantly lower than American citizens. When I need you to espouse opinions for me, I'll let you know. Until then, run your mouth for yourself, not me. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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The difference being what happened afterwards. Hitler was convicted of treason and what happened to him? Treated like a guest and let out in a couple years. This was evidence that the Weimar government was not really functional.
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That's why Trump should be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law. Had Hitler died in prison a lot of misery could have been averted. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Still not a defense. Although, the whole situation does undermine a previous argument that Nazis came to power legitimately. You do know the Reichstag burning was a self created lie to pass the Enabling Act. This was after Nazis had gotten control of the masses through paramilitary violence. The Beer Hall Putsch and Jan 6, I see as almost one to one in comparison. I actually see Jan 6 as worse bc it was perpetrated by my party the Roght party, against a written and established Constitution, and permitted by a GOP President. Anyone who would minimize Jan 6 I see as those who wanted Hitler released from prison. That glides you, Dr. Butler. Anyone who would say Jan 6 did not happen, or the election was not above board I cast in the lot with those of The Beer Hall Putsch. | |||
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Any reasonably educated individual who has any understanding of the history of Germany pre-World War II has to admit there are disturbing parallels to the "MAGA ideology". The one significant difference is that Germany was in the throes of a tremendous economic crisis which fueled the rise of Nazism. Many writers have outlined the parallels but just as in the 1930's there are plenty of folks that, either ignoring or ignorant of history, choose to cast a blind eye to such parallels. Mike | |||
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In a compare and contrast theme...there are as many differences as there are parallels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum A question re: chronology of events at the Capitol.
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