quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The difference being what happened afterwards.

Hitler was convicted of treason and what happened to him? Treated like a guest and let out in a couple years. This was evidence that the Weimar government was not really functional.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Another violent, mob attempt to overthrow the legitimate government that had no chance of succeeding:

The Beer Hall Putsch.

The argument being they had no chance of an actually succeeding is foolish.

That's why Trump should be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law. Had Hitler died in prison a lot of misery could have been averted.

Still not a defense. Although, the whole situation does undermine a previous argument that Nazis came to power legitimately. You do know the Reichstag burning was a self created lie to pass the Enabling Act. This was after Nazis had gotten control of the masses through paramilitary violence.

The Beer Hall Putsch and Jan 6, I see as almost one to one in comparison. I actually see Jan 6 as worse bc it was perpetrated by my party the Roght party, against a written and established Constitution, and permitted by a GOP President.

Anyone who would minimize Jan 6 I see as those who wanted Hitler released from prison. That glides you, Dr. Butler.

Anyone who would say Jan 6 did not happen, or the election was not above board I cast in the lot with those of The Beer Hall Putsch.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'm not sure what the heck this really means.

The Reichstag burning was engineered by the Nazis- yes.

We haven't changed about that. You don't think all politicians will use anything to get what they want? You don't think the Democrats don't fully understand their light on crime policies are directly responsible for the gun crime that they are using to get their desired gun control?

My point re the Nazi government was that it was voted in by the majority of germans and that the votes were counted accurately. Was there all kinds of manipulation of popular opinion? Yes. Did the Nazis do a lot of things that were illegal? Yes. But you seem to be missing the difference between legal, legitimate and moral. The Nazis were immoral, but legitimate.

The folks who tried to stop the election on 1/6 were both illegal and immoral. My only disagreement with you is the numbers of folks who fit that category being viewed as a large number. I get that it was to you a slap in the face as it was your supported candidate's fellow followers and that you hold yourself to a higher standard.

I don't "minimize" 1/6, I just think you are overstating it. Hitler committed treason. He should have been treated like a traitor. That they let him out as they did says quite a lot. You want to try Trump for treason? Go ahead. If you can prove treason, then we should execute him for it. Yet you have also said you don't think he committed treason (as in you have said he could not be convicted of treason.)

We convicted a guy who they were able to find statements that he was planning to do what you claim that 1/6 was all about. Are you saying they didn't punish him enough? I could agree with that, although our history of criminal punishment for political violence lately hasn't been quite that level.

I'm not sure what that glides me means.

More to the point, I think that the behaviors around elections since Regan have shown that our political health has not been that great due to an increasing amount of protest over whoever got elected that has been getting more extensive as time goes on. The fringe is getting larger and more strident as time goes on. The folks on the losing side both sides feel they are at "the end".

As To Mike's point, yes there are parallels. There are also a lot of parallels to the fall of Rome as well.

As well as some significant differences.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The difference being what happened afterwards.

Hitler was convicted of treason and what happened to him? Treated like a guest and let out in a couple years. This was evidence that the Weimar government was not really functional.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Another violent, mob attempt to overthrow the legitimate government that had no chance of succeeding:

The Beer Hall Putsch.

The argument being they had no chance of an actually succeeding is foolish.

That's why Trump should be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law. Had Hitler died in prison a lot of misery could have been averted.

Still not a defense. Although, the whole situation does undermine a previous argument that Nazis came to power legitimately. You do know the Reichstag burning was a self created lie to pass the Enabling Act. This was after Nazis had gotten control of the masses through paramilitary violence.

The Beer Hall Putsch and Jan 6, I see as almost one to one in comparison. I actually see Jan 6 as worse bc it was perpetrated by my party the Roght party, against a written and established Constitution, and permitted by a GOP President.

Anyone who would minimize Jan 6 I see as those who wanted Hitler released from prison. That glides you, Dr. Butler.

Anyone who would say Jan 6 did not happen, or the election was not above board I cast in the lot with those of The Beer Hall Putsch.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'm not sure what the heck this really means.

The Reichstag burning was engineered by the Nazis- yes.

We haven't changed about that. You don't think all politicians will use anything to get what they want? You don't think the Democrats don't fully understand their light on crime policies are directly responsible for the gun crime that they are using to get their desired gun control?

My point re the Nazi government was that it was voted in by the majority of germans and that the votes were counted accurately. Was there all kinds of manipulation of popular opinion? Yes. Did the Nazis do a lot of things that were illegal? Yes. But you seem to be missing the difference between legal, legitimate and moral. The Nazis were immoral, but legitimate.

The folks who tried to stop the election on 1/6 were both illegal and immoral. My only disagreement with you is the numbers of folks who fit that category being viewed as a large number. I get that it was to you a slap in the face as it was your supported candidate's fellow followers and that you hold yourself to a higher standard.

I don't "minimize" 1/6, I just think you are overstating it. Hitler committed treason. He should have been treated like a traitor. That they let him out as they did says quite a lot. You want to try Trump for treason? Go ahead. If you can prove treason, then we should execute him for it. Yet you have also said you don't think he committed treason (as in you have said he could not be convicted of treason.)

We convicted a guy who they were able to find statements that he was planning to do what you claim that 1/6 was all about. Are you saying they didn't punish him enough? I could agree with that, although our history of criminal punishment for political violence lately hasn't been quite that level.

I'm not sure what that glides me means.

More to the point, I think that the behaviors around elections since Regan have shown that our political health has not been that great due to an increasing amount of protest over whoever got elected that has been getting more extensive as time goes on. The fringe is getting larger and more strident as time goes on. The folks on the losing side both sides feel they are at "the end".

As To Mike's point, yes there are parallels. There are also a lot of parallels to the fall of Rome as well.

As well as some significant differences.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The difference being what happened afterwards.

Hitler was convicted of treason and what happened to him? Treated like a guest and let out in a couple years. This was evidence that the Weimar government was not really functional.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Another violent, mob attempt to overthrow the legitimate government that had no chance of succeeding:

The Beer Hall Putsch.

The argument being they had no chance of an actually succeeding is foolish.

That's why Trump should be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law. Had Hitler died in prison a lot of misery could have been averted.

Still not a defense. Although, the whole situation does undermine a previous argument that Nazis came to power legitimately. You do know the Reichstag burning was a self created lie to pass the Enabling Act. This was after Nazis had gotten control of the masses through paramilitary violence.

The Beer Hall Putsch and Jan 6, I see as almost one to one in comparison. I actually see Jan 6 as worse bc it was perpetrated by my party the Roght party, against a written and established Constitution, and permitted by a GOP President.

Anyone who would minimize Jan 6 I see as those who wanted Hitler released from prison. That glides you, Dr. Butler.

Anyone who would say Jan 6 did not happen, or the election was not above board I cast in the lot with those of The Beer Hall Putsch.

The Nazi Party never got a majority of the vote until after they outlawed all other Parties after taking control in 1933 with 43.91% of the vote.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Its a parliamentary system. That was taking control. Churchill was a result of one of those as well.

They and the like minded in government agreed to those rules.

Or are you claiming that its impossible for people to collectively make bad/evil choices?

To me the bigger point is WHY did the Germans, Japanese, and Italians all go for fascist governments? Why did the Russians, Chinese, and North Koreans all go for Communist governments?

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'm not sure what the heck this really means.

The Reichstag burning was engineered by the Nazis- yes.

We haven't changed about that. You don't think all politicians will use anything to get what they want? You don't think the Democrats don't fully understand their light on crime policies are directly responsible for the gun crime that they are using to get their desired gun control?

My point re the Nazi government was that it was voted in by the majority of germans and that the votes were counted accurately. Was there all kinds of manipulation of popular opinion? Yes. Did the Nazis do a lot of things that were illegal? Yes. But you seem to be missing the difference between legal, legitimate and moral. The Nazis were immoral, but legitimate.

The folks who tried to stop the election on 1/6 were both illegal and immoral. My only disagreement with you is the numbers of folks who fit that category being viewed as a large number. I get that it was to you a slap in the face as it was your supported candidate's fellow followers and that you hold yourself to a higher standard.

I don't "minimize" 1/6, I just think you are overstating it. Hitler committed treason. He should have been treated like a traitor. That they let him out as they did says quite a lot. You want to try Trump for treason? Go ahead. If you can prove treason, then we should execute him for it. Yet you have also said you don't think he committed treason (as in you have said he could not be convicted of treason.)

We convicted a guy who they were able to find statements that he was planning to do what you claim that 1/6 was all about. Are you saying they didn't punish him enough? I could agree with that, although our history of criminal punishment for political violence lately hasn't been quite that level.

I'm not sure what that glides me means.

More to the point, I think that the behaviors around elections since Regan have shown that our political health has not been that great due to an increasing amount of protest over whoever got elected that has been getting more extensive as time goes on. The fringe is getting larger and more strident as time goes on. The folks on the losing side both sides feel they are at "the end".

As To Mike's point, yes there are parallels. There are also a lot of parallels to the fall of Rome as well.

As well as some significant differences.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The difference being what happened afterwards.

Hitler was convicted of treason and what happened to him? Treated like a guest and let out in a couple years. This was evidence that the Weimar government was not really functional.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Another violent, mob attempt to overthrow the legitimate government that had no chance of succeeding:

The Beer Hall Putsch.

The argument being they had no chance of an actually succeeding is foolish.

That's why Trump should be prosecuted to the full extent of the Law. Had Hitler died in prison a lot of misery could have been averted.

Still not a defense. Although, the whole situation does undermine a previous argument that Nazis came to power legitimately. You do know the Reichstag burning was a self created lie to pass the Enabling Act. This was after Nazis had gotten control of the masses through paramilitary violence.

The Beer Hall Putsch and Jan 6, I see as almost one to one in comparison. I actually see Jan 6 as worse bc it was perpetrated by my party the Roght party, against a written and established Constitution, and permitted by a GOP President.

Anyone who would minimize Jan 6 I see as those who wanted Hitler released from prison. That glides you, Dr. Butler.

Anyone who would say Jan 6 did not happen, or the election was not above board I cast in the lot with those of The Beer Hall Putsch.

The Nazi Party never got a majority of the vote until after they outlawed all other Parties after taking control in 1933 with 43.91% of the vote.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
cute -- now do antifa/brownshirts under the same level of scrutiny and "tolerance" to modern circumstance

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
cute -- now do antifa/brownshirts under the same level of scrutiny and "tolerance" to modern circumstance

ANTIFA is not an organization under any government or party's control, it is a grass roots movement against fascism, thus the ANTI-FAscism name.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
It is the means the Nazis took those seats and the means the Nazis passed the Enabling Act that makes their assent to power illegitimate.

Go read how the Nazis annexed Austria, or the justification for the Enabling Act.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
By the same "logic" the SA stormtroopers were not under government control and they were a "grassroots response" to Communism like the Freikorps.

They were questionably answerable to the Nazi party (thus the night of the long knives)...

We are way closer to communism than we are to fascism.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
cute -- now do antifa/brownshirts under the same level of scrutiny and "tolerance" to modern circumstance

ANTIFA is not an organization under any government or party's control, it is a grass roots movement against fascism, thus the ANTI-FAscism name.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
It is the means the Nazis took those seats and the means the Nazis passed the Enabling Act that makes their assent to power illegitimate.

Go read how the Nazis annexed Austria, or the justification for the Enabling Act.

I know fully well how the Nazis annexed Austria and that their justification for the enabling act was nonsense.

So was their claim that Poland attacked Germany.

So was their take over of the Sudetenland.

Again, they were immoral, but not (especially given the other nations of the times) illegitimate. Note that the Nuremberg trials never claimed they were illegitimate, rather that they committed crimes against humanity and crimes against peace.

Was the US government illegitimate under LBJ?

Yes, there is plenty to learn from what happened in Germany in the late 20's-1945 from a political point of view. However, as it was a unique situation, its not nearly as universally applicable as the current crop of so called antifascists want it to be. Note they use a lot of Hitler's and Goebbels' tactics as well. Note that many of these predate the Nazis- Lenin and the Bolsheviks used a lot of them as well.

That was actually one of Hitler's justifications- anything to stop the communists.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
It is the means the Nazis took those seats and the means the Nazis passed the Enabling Act that makes their assent to power illegitimate.

Go read how the Nazis annexed Austria, or the justification for the Enabling Act.

I know fully well how the Nazis annexed Austria and that their justification for the enabling act was nonsense.

So was their claim that Poland attacked Germany.

So was their take over of the Sudetenland.

Again, they were immoral, but not (especially given the other nations of the times) illegitimate. Note that the Nuremberg trials never claimed they were illegitimate, rather that they committed crimes against humanity and crimes against peace.

Was the US government illegitimate under LBJ?

Yes, there is plenty to learn from what happened in Germany in the late 20's-1945 from a political point of view. However, as it was a unique situation, its not nearly as universally applicable as the current crop of so called antifascists want it to be. Note they use a lot of Hitler's and Goebbels' tactics as well. Note that many of these predate the Nazis- Lenin and the Bolsheviks used a lot of them as well.

That was actually one of Hitler's justifications- anything to stop the communists.

Actually, the Nuremberg Trials did. That is why they did not allow the military officer found guilty of planning the war among knowledge of deposing Jews criminals for hanging. The request to be shot as officers was denied.

Go read about Kittle and the Fog and Night Order.

LBJ?! Are you serious. LBJ took the office pursuant to constitutional procedure. Saying things like that is why you are a moron.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
cute -- now do antifa/brownshirts under the same level of scrutiny and "tolerance" to modern circumstance

ANTIFA is not an organization under any government or party's control, it is a grass roots movement against fascism, thus the ANTI-FAscism name.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The Gulf of Tonkin resolution pushed by LBJ to get us into active warfare in Vietnam was a disingenuous fake to allow LBJ to appear not soft on communism (thus internal political reasons) and justify our massive use of force in Vietnam.

If false flag operations make you a illegitimate government (which is your comment re the annexation of Austria) then how do you justify LBJ?

I get that he was legitimately through the law of succession president. I don't claim he's an illegitimate president... you do by your argument here.

You were the one making statements that the acts of the government made them illegitimate.

The Nuremburg trials said these folks were guilty of crimes against people of a higher order than existing law. They expressly said that German law did not apply and these individuals should have known it was unacceptable. They had a moral duty to not act in such a manner.

Read up on our SCOTUS member (Robert Jackson, iirc) of the tribunal who had serious concerns about the fact that we were trying folks where no law existed other than their own.

I'm not claiming they deserve to be judged by German law or that German law in the Third Reich was moral or just. That they put those laws into effect is why some of them were executed.

The point is that by German law at the time, and by the standards of Europe at the time, Hitler was legitimately made Chancellor and then Fuehrer (which was a position he made up- and admitted so in his last political will and testament by not appointing a new Fuehrer...) of Nazi Germany. That they acted in such a manner that they were executed for it is a different point.

Or as someone put it... elections have consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The Gulf of Tonkin resolution pushed by LBJ to get us into active warfare in Vietnam was a disingenuous fake to allow LBJ to appear not soft on communism (thus internal political reasons) and justify our massive use of force in Vietnam.

If false flag operations make you a illegitimate government (which is your comment re the annexation of Austria) then how do you justify LBJ?

I get that he was legitimately through the law of succession president. I don't claim he's an illegitimate president... you do by your argument here.

You were the one making statements that the acts of the government made them illegitimate.

The Nuremburg trials said these folks were guilty of crimes against people of a higher order than existing law. They expressly said that German law did not apply and these individuals should have known it was unacceptable. They had a moral duty to not act in such a manner.

Read up on our SCOTUS member (Robert Jackson, iirc) of the tribunal who had serious concerns about the fact that we were trying folks where no law existed other than their own.

I'm not claiming they deserve to be judged by German law or that German law in the Third Reich was moral or just. That they put those laws into effect is why some of them were executed.

The point is that by German law at the time, and by the standards of Europe at the time, Hitler was legitimately made Chancellor and then Fuehrer (which was a position he made up- and admitted so in his last political will and testament by not appointing a new Fuehrer...) of Nazi Germany. That they acted in such a manner that they were executed for it is a different point.

Or as someone put it... elections have consequences.

The politics German law was violated so the Nazis could gain power.

Here is another thing. President Trump’s de-legitimacy cannot be cured by a subsequent election. However, the Constitution as amended does not vest in me the powers to give effect to that statement. We hope the Supreme Court will provide us an actual answer to that question of who is soon.

Thus, if President Trump is duly elected by the rules of our constitutional system, he will be my U.S. President, Donald Trump for a second term. One would hope this would be final. Notwithstanding any subsequent procedurally lawful removal.

In addition, until President Trump is convicted of a high crime (felony, crime concerning the election) subject to our highest due process protections being a criminal adjudication. I shall refer to him as President Trump. For whatever President Trump is, he is still a U.S. Citizen who was duly vested as our General Government’s chief magistrate. I shall give him the honorific as such based on the traditions of the office. I shall honor that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
A jury found he committed sexual assault, a Judge found he committed systematic fraud over a period of years and his Party is a willing partner of Russian Intelligence.

I refuse to die before I can piss on his grave.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
A jury found he committed sexual assault, a Judge found he committed systematic fraud over a period of years and his Party is a willing partner of Russian Intelligence.

I refuse to die before I can piss on his grave.

No a jury found him liable for slandering Caroll.

He was found to have committed business fraud.

There have been complaints that the Russians have been committing a disinformation campaign, but it hasn’t been proven. There is an allegation that a source was lying and planted by Russian intelligence.

It’s your right to want to piss on his grave, but that’s probably a crime… and you can argue with you’re biological system all you want, when it stops working, your gig is up.

I hope you do live that long, but that’s a pretty silly thing to wish for, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
cute -- now do antifa/brownshirts under the same level of scrutiny and "tolerance" to modern circumstance

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
When you try to use violence to stop the peaceful transition of power, and the setting President does nothing to stop that violence.

I have a serious problem w that and anyone who minimizes that.

There is no If to this.