Public funds for religious charter schools in Oklahoma ruled unconstitutional. I'm hoping the ruling stands, parochial schools should not be publicly funded.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/...ing-unconstitutional

Christian Nationalists have been pushing this for a long time.

What they want is to be able to indoctrinate children with taxpayer money.

Betsy DeVos

Betsy DeVos made at least $225 million while education secretary

https://www.citizensforethics....education-secretary/

Betsy DeVos has been a disaster for public education from day one.
As President Donald Trump’s secretary of education, Betsy DeVos has worked to subvert public education. She has promoted the privatization of public schools through vouchers, called for deep cuts to federal funding, rolled back protections for vulnerable children, and shilled for the for-profit college industry that has defrauded countless students.

https://www.psea.org/issues-ac...etsy-devos-timeline/

Trump's second term, by means of project 2025, would eliminate the Department of Education, eliminate Head Start, etc.

There is a chance the Oklahoma case is SCOTUS bait to further institutionalize Trumpism.

School vouchers are about to become a reality in Texas. Looks like Abbott has the votes.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/n...d%20non%2DChristians.

The Billionaire Bully Who Wants to Turn Texas Into a Christian Theocracy

https://youtu.be/U9D70TX4G14?si=14CtoF9ohdxBdRFF

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
School vouchers are about to become a reality in Texas. Looks like Abbott has the votes.

If you elect clowns the circus shouldn't surprise you.

The Supreme Court ruled last the year or the year bf when a state gives non-religious schools vouchers, the state must provide the same vouchers to religious schools.

Justice Alito majority opinion.

Thus, there is merit that the state money provided to non-religious schools must be provided to religious schools.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The Supreme Court ruled last year or the year or the year bf when a state gives non-religious schools vouchers, the state must provide the same vouchers to religious schools.

Justice Alito majority opinion.

Thus, there is merit that the state money provided to non-religious schools must be provided to religious schools.

It's a scam either way, study after study shows that almost all such voucher money goes to those already enrolled in the private schools, so it's not providing "opportunity" to those who can't afford it, it's subsidizing those who can by taking money from public education.

Like Jesus intended...

Here is the case:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/o...pdf/20-1088_dbfi.pdf

The holding when a state provides tuition assistance to non-religious schools, the state must apply that same assistance to religious schools.

That would include Mosque that start a charter school.

If the tuition assistance is being provided by the state to non-religious schools. This ruling is dramatically opposed to the above case. It will be overturned.

When a state elects to provide tuition assistance, vouchers, other tuition assistance to non-religious schools, the state must provide the same assistance to religious schools.

The only way around it is for the state not to offer tuition assistance to any schools. Once, a state starts offering such assistance, it cannot pick and choose.

The opinion was rendered by Chief Justice Roberts and not Justice Alito.

Justice Alito authored Groff v. DeJoy which killed off a kind of cases from 1977, and calls into doubt our Religious Freedom precedents directly. That is why I thought the Maine case above was him. I was wrong on the author of the above decision. Then , we have Kennedy v Bremerton School District that repudiated the Lemon Test for how the Courts address religious freedom questions. That was an option rendered by Justice Gorsuch.

Read the above case. I have have the holding, but read it for yourself.

The issue is not so obvious anymore.

Again, the hook would be when Oklahoma provided vouchers to non-religious charter schools or private schools to assist in tuition, Oklahoma must give the same assistance to religious schools(even Islamic afflicted ones).

In short, be careful what you wish for.

I don't really have an issue with the parents deciding where their kid goes to school, and that the tuition assistance goes there.

The public school systems have been getting pretty far afield in what they are "teaching" kids with public funds. Giving the choice back to the parents makes sense to me. Make the parent want to send their kids to a nonreligious school by having it be a better education, and the majority will. Continue holding the majority to kowtow to a very minority opinion, and you will continue to develop demands for students to be free to go elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don't really have an issue with the parents deciding where their kid goes to school, and that the tuition assistance goes there.

It's not my business what other parents do in this case -
Heck, I think schooler vouchers should be allowed for use in ANY type of legitimate school - including home schooling.

But that's just me, being a fan of the home of the FREE ---

and no, i have no problems with parents being able to use at a religious school, a trade school, or just about anything else -

Students are free to go elsewhere and they always have been. Tax dollars should go to support public education, not Catholic schools, or Islamist schools or Buddhist schools. If you want your child educated in religion then send them to a parochial school, that choice has always been there, just don't take tax dollars away from public institutions to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don't really have an issue with the parents deciding where their kid goes to school, and that the tuition assistance goes there.

It's not my business what other parents do in this case -
Heck, I think schooler vouchers should be allowed for use in ANY type of legitimate school - including home schooling.

But that's just me, being a fan of the home of the FREE ---

and no, i have no problems with parents being able to use at a religious school, a trade school, or just about anything else -

That is the current status of the law. Assuming, a state is providing tuition assistance.

Philosophically, I agree w Steve Bertram. However, the Supreme Court has declared otherwise when a state offers tuition assistance. The issue is not so obvious anymore.

In some Canadian cities, taxpayers are allowed to say to which system their school taxes should be allocated. Now, as far as I know, the choice is typically only between the public and Catholic school systems. I believe people should have the right to specifically allocate their education taxes. As long as the school meets the requirements for scholastic achievement, the taxpayer should be free to choose between the super-woke, the Bible thumpers, or the secular conservatives, as they wish. Bill

It is not as simple as taxes.

In the U.S. your local school system is funded on property taxes accessed on the school’s district.

Your local school board, here, has the statutory ability to raise this school tax rate.

That is why school districts in poor, often rural communities, have less staff and faculty, they pass less, more students per class, and less resources likes books or out dated books.

The Fed budget will allocate funds to states that get disbursed to individual school districts on attendance. That is why you see schools make such a drive concerning attendance, and will close schools do to sickness. Here when attendance dips below 75 percent across the district the district has lost money.

That is how voucher programs destroy public education. The kids are removed from the public school. The money for that child is skid over to a glorified private school. The best kids in a district generally from the best, better incomes of the district take that money with them for attendance and testing incentives.

School funding is really a multi leg stool. Funding based on attendance that ultimately comes from the Federal government, local property tax assessments, and a few other things.

It is not as simple as your tax dollars generated with in the district.

The answer, in my works view, is for a state not to provide any tuition assistance. Thus, a Jewish school, a Mosque affiliated school, a humanist school, a super woke school, a privatized refused to take any disabled children abomination of a school, does not receive any state money.

Go to them if you want and can afford. Or they can and do offer tuition waivers, assistance, scholarships internally. They being the school. That is fair market, state hands off competition right?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
School vouchers are about to become a reality in Texas. Looks like Abbott has the votes.

About time too! Hold those teachers unions feet to the fire!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
In some Canadian cities, taxpayers are allowed to say to which system their school taxes should be allocated. Now, as far as I know, the choice is typically only between the public and Catholic school systems. I believe people should have the right to specifically allocate their education taxes. As long as the school meets the requirements for scholastic achievement, the taxpayer should be free to choose between the super-woke, the Bible thumpers, or the secular conservatives, as they wish. Bill

As it should be.

Supporting these failing districts for the benefit of the teachers and to the detriment of the children is morally wrong.

Your vision leaves the children in those districts abandoned for reasons I have done said.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Christian Nationalists have been pushing this for a long time.

What they want is to be able to indoctrinate children with taxpayer money.

Well no.

I don't favor defunding and abandoning public schools any more than I would public works or public safety. If there's problems within any of the three, the citizen/ taxpayer/ parent has the duty and the authority to fix the problems.

What we want is for our/ my tax dollars to be used in education and the other public interests wisely. It for example my public education tax dollars are being used to fund pro Hamas interests in the school or LGBT,..... education and interest in the school I'll be taking umbrage.

I like the idea of religious education, but at this time my student seems to do well in the public school. I'm not particularly concerned with an educator instructing my child in manners or social skills, acceptable behavior, religion or gender identity, I think I have that covered.

I'll emphasize to you that taxpayers are parents. Taxpayers/ parents get to say where their dollar goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

I'll emphasize to you that taxpayers are parents. Taxpayers/ parents get to say where their dollar goes.

I do not agree with that. I have no say in where my tax dollars go other than at the ballot box. I would never send my money to Israel, yet it goes there.

Now the Christian Nationalist want to teach the Bible to every public school student. They should teach the Torah, the Koran, Native American creation stories etc. as well then. Tax dollars have no place promoting any one religion, especially in our schools.

https://apnews.com/article/okl...ab4d0976b2d3bf3ce511

Oklahoma, ranks 45th out 50 states in education, but instead of trying to improve that abysmal stat the culture warrior who is the State Superintendent wants to bring Jesus to the classroom.

quote:

Taxpayers/ parents get to say where their dollar goes.

The trick is that some taxpayer/parents want to say where other taxpayer/parent's money goes.

Why do you figure that Project 2025 wants to eliminate the Education Department?

The best example of conservative's vision of education is Betsy Devos. https://www.npr.org/2020/11/19...ecretary-betsy-devos

How Education Secretary Betsy DeVos Will Be Remembered
NOVEMBER 19, 20205:00 AM ET
HEARD ON MORNING EDITION

(exerpt)

Even when it came to budgeting for her agency, DeVos was ideologically consistent. She argued for less money from Congress, massive cuts in federal education spending and consolidating the programs that would remain (requests lawmakers repeatedly rebuffed).

The secretary talked often about what she perceived as the failures of America's public education system and, instead, touted controversial and unproven alternatives, such as distributing school funds to families, to spend where they like. "Instead of holding fast to what we know does not work," DeVos told lawmakers earlier this year, "let me suggest we find the courage to do something bold and begin a new era of student growth and achievement."

================================================


The obvious question is why didn't she and other conservatives focus on making public schools better?

The obvious answer is separation of church and state. They want religious education to tout the dogma of Christian Nationalism. I call that indoctrination. The platform of public schools is not as well suited as private schools.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

I'll emphasize to you that taxpayers are parents. Taxpayers/ parents get to say where their dollar goes.

I do not agree with that. I have no say in where my tax dollars go other than at the ballot box. I would never send my money to Israel, yet it goes there.

And so you certainly do get a say as well as anytime you visit with any elected person that represents you.

I visit with my City Councilmen occasionally, my school board members a little more and the school principal frequently. We all have a very good relationship, we all like each other quite a bit, and I assure you they have no questions about my, "say".

Oh you can voice your opinion, but you have no say in the matter. Kind of like screaming into the abyss.

Think about your complaint in regard to roads and bridges. It appears that both you and I would make maintaining them a priority, not so much until the recent infrastructure bill. We pay our taxes and can voice our opinions but ultimately someone else decides the budget, neither of us do.

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/15...ucture-bill-into-law

quote:

I visit with my City Councilmen occasionally, my school board members a little more and the school principal frequently. We all have a very good relationship, we all like each other quite a bit, and I assure you they have no questions about my, "say".

That has to be a good thing. It says a lot about local input and participation, if not control, re public schools.

But, if you think and insist that your "say", for example, includes taxpayer money channeled to charter schools and the right to put the ten commandments on the walls of public schools, then you would be touting the "say" that Christian Nationalists insist upon.

Just because you live in a safe haven bubble doesn't mean the issues with Christian Nationalism indoctrination desires for children - all children - except those they deem unfit, aren't an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

I visit with my City Councilmen occasionally, my school board members a little more and the school principal frequently. We all have a very good relationship, we all like each other quite a bit, and I assure you they have no questions about my, "say".

That has to be a good thing. It says a lot about local input and participation, if not control, re public schools.

But, if you think and insist that your "say", for example, includes taxpayer money channeled to charter schools and the right to put the ten commandments on the walls of public schools, then you would be touting the "say" that Christian Nationalists insist upon.

Just because you live in a safe haven bubble doesn't mean the issues with Christian Nationalism indoctrination desires for children - all children - except those they deem unfit, aren't an issue.

I understand the desire to see taxpayers money go to specific and narrow priorities like private education, I just don't agree with it. We compromise, we fix what we have and we make it work for all Americans, even if it limits the capacity.

quote:

We compromise, we fix what we have and we make it work for all Americans

The year I graduated from high school was the last year of segregation here.

After that all hell broke loose for a while. Several private schools started up. My mother was a teacher, and she chose to retire. My younger brother had a hard time with it all.

Anyway, my view on it all got tainted a long time ago. I didn't want segregation to continue but I also didn't want the problems with desegregation either. It was a tough time for kids.

The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

You are all for compromise as long as it is liberal favored....

Compromise in these days is not something that is gonna happen. I am all for true compromise......

Can you tell me the last time that democrats compromised on an issue?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

You are all for compromise as long as it is liberal favored....

Compromise in these days is not something that is gonna happen. I am all for true compromise......

Can you tell me the last time that democrats compromised on an issue?

The border bill that Trump tanked. The GOP got what their negotiator asked for in the bill, then Trump torpedoed it so he could run on the issue.

Next question?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

I'd like to have "Rulers" that introduce themselves by saying, "Hi, we're from the government and we can't help you.".

Meaning id like to have politicians not show up at the NRA convention because they're busy with the Teamsters and Operating Engineers getting the highways and bridges fixed an improved! I'd like to have the politicians not show up for Juneteenth because they're working with Red Cross, Salvation Army HUD, the Surgeon General and a couple others to fix homelessness. I'd get a big kick out of seeing them schedule half a dozen partisan fund raising rallys and then at the last minute just no show because they're in a VA hospital going room to room with VA staff to explain and their staff to take notes.

Until we get back to a Ron Reagan/ Tip O Niel it's gonna be one big failure.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

You are all for compromise as long as it is liberal favored....

Compromise in these days is not something that is gonna happen. I am all for true compromise......

Can you tell me the last time that democrats compromised on an issue?

The border bill that Trump tanked. The GOP got what their negotiator asked for in the bill, then Trump torpedoed it so he could run on the issue.

Next question?

I think they called the infrastructure bill bipartisan.


hummm.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Public funds for religious charter schools in Oklahoma ruled unconstitutional. I'm hoping the ruling stands, parochial schools should not be publicly funded.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/...ing-unconstitutional

Why not? We state on our currency "In God We Trust". Why not learn about God in school? Let the funding follow where the kids go and which schools generate the best results....

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

On some things I agree... But on many things - NO. Why compromise on evil?

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Public funds for religious charter schools in Oklahoma ruled unconstitutional. I'm hoping the ruling stands, parochial schools should not be publicly funded.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/...ing-unconstitutional

Why not? We state on our currency "In God We Trust". Why not learn about God in school? Let the funding follow where the kids go and which schools generate the best results....

Because I do not want the public school system undermined and I strongly believe in separation of church and State.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mussulmen (Muslims) . . ." [Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, written by Joel Barlow, diplomatic agent to the Barbary States, ratified by the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, [signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797].

quote:

When will this current nightmare end.

I think the cases regarding the ten commandments laws in LA and OK will go to SCOTUS and they will fuck it up.

And, we will have to live with it, and Trumpism institutionalized, for several generations, perhaps longer with no return to the Founders vision and principles.

The trajectory is well in motion, developed, with a plan. It's right in front of us to see.

I don't like being pessimistic, but I don't like to be in denial worse.

ahh, the tolerant left .. open to every ideology in the country, except the majority ..

which, just for the record, i am, on my best days, an agnostic, in the very few days that it even occurs to me.

you know how you give Lane a ration over his views that the community standards should never be HIS beliefs?

you realize you are pushing YOUR standards on other people and how they choose to raise their kids?

nah, self reflection is pretty weak across the whole political spectrum...

i have heard it said several ways.. but "mind your own business" says it pretty clearly .. you have NO CONTROL over it, you have no say in it, and no power to FORCE others to live your way...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ahh, the tolerant left .. open to every ideology in the country, except the majority ..

which, just for the record, i am, on my best days, an agnostic, in the very few days that it even occurs to me.

you know how you give Lane a ration over his views that the community standards should never be HIS beliefs?

you realize you are pushing YOUR standards on other people and how they choose to raise their kids?

nah, self reflection is pretty weak across the whole political spectrum...

i have heard it said several ways.. but "mind your own business" says it pretty clearly .. you have NO CONTROL over it, you have no say in it, and no power to FORCE others to live your way...

Raise you kids how you want, just don't take tax dollars away from the public education system to support religious schools. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a parochial education, just pay for it yourself.

But yes Jeffe, indeed, mind your own business and educate your own children about your religious beliefs and allow your neighbor the same courtesy. While your at it, do it on your dime.

Frankly, I think most people who ID as left are rather stupid, participants herein excluded, of course. And casual agnostics are worse.

We as a nation have been duped by rightist zealots, and we - dumb ass leftists, casual agnostics, apologist rightists, are to blame.

Everyone with any sense at all gained from experience or observation should know that zealots and extremists are relentless.

Identifying who they are is the first step, and it's from outside looking in, hardly ever the other way. An escaped cult member knows what I'm saying.

The quote: "when they tell you who they are, believe them the first time", is relevant. You can also tell who they are by what they say they want, in particular what they want to impose.

But, we, as described above, think compromise is always the answer. The old saying "give an inch and they will take a mile" comes to mind.

But we live in our comfort, not paying attention, minding our own business, projecting our good nature on others who don't deserve it, and think 250 years of relative stability (civil war excluded) means we're safe - they can't win.

Well folks, they are winning.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Public funds for religious charter schools in Oklahoma ruled unconstitutional. I'm hoping the ruling stands, parochial schools should not be publicly funded.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/...ing-unconstitutional

Why not? We state on our currency "In God We Trust". Why not learn about God in school? Let the funding follow where the kids go and which schools generate the best results....

Because I do not want the public school system undermined and I strongly believe in separation of church and State.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
The dirtiest word in politics these days, compromise. We need a whole lot more it.

On some things I agree... But on many things - NO. Why compromise on evil?

Why not learn about God in school?
That's what church is for, and it's the parent's responsibility. If some want to delegate the specific indoctrination of their kids, send them to private school, and pay for it yourself.

Let the funding follow where the kids go.
The kids go where their parents send them, generally. Indeed, let the funding follow, just not TP money.

which schools generate the best results?
"Best results" is subjective, unless of course God issues a report card. "Best results" in the zealot's estimate is which school does the best job of indoctrination.

Why compromise on evil?
How do you define "evil"? Is it in any part based on what you see or hear from Fox News, Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn? Does it in any part have hate for liberals, for blacks, or any race other than white?

Early in my indoctrination formation years I was told there were no dogs in Heaven, and there were no peoples' souls allowed to pass the pearly gates unless they believed, during life, just like the tribe, which in my case were Baptists. Now, I see evil far differently than I suppose you do. As a kid I could imagine being stuck in the clouds with nothing but White Baptists, with halos, dressed in white robes all around singing hymns, out of tune of course - nothing else to do. That's a terrible thing to do to a kid.

BTW, now I have six wonderful dogs and I'm giving them a good home and care - a dog's heaven on earth.

Let's dwell on the concept of "evil" some more:

Here's the general definitions:

evil
1 of 3
adjective
ˈē-vəl British often and US sometimes ˈē-(ˌ)vil
eviler or eviller; evilest or evillest
Synonyms of evil
1a: morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED
an evil impulse
b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
a person of evil reputation
2a archaic : INFERIOR
b: causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE
an evil odor
c: DISAGREEABLE
woke late and in an evil temper
3a: causing harm : PERNICIOUS
the evil institution of slavery
b: marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY

adverb
evilness
ˈē-vəl-nəs
British often and US sometimes
ˈē-(ˌ)vil-

2 of 3
evil - noun
1a: the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing
b: a cosmic evil force
2: something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

3 of 3
evil - adverb
archaic
: in an evil manner

Synonyms
Adjective

adverse
bad
baleful
baneful
damaging
dangerous
deleterious
detrimental
harmful
hurtful
ill
injurious
mischievous
nocuous
noxious
pernicious
prejudicial
wicked

Noun

bad
evildoing
ill
immorality
iniquity
sin
villainy
wrong

You say: "Why compromise on evil?"

I say that Trumpism IS compromised on evil, utterly. What part of the definition of "evil" does not pertain to Trump/Trumpism?

So, I ask the question: Why compromise on evil?