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I’m sorry you feel that way. In India, as you yourself said about yourself, in order to succeed, you have to be able to deal with the political classes. In order to take over an industry, regardless of where, you need political capital unavailable to the average person. Tata had great wealth and success, and thus power. Was he elected? No. But I guarantee his opinion of local politicians was important. His role compared to a Sam Walton is undoubtedly similar. Reasonably quiet in politics, but definitely a force. He would not have had the success he had if he was not an oligarch.
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Doc You are making a lot of assumptions. I have cautioned you about this before. You do not understand the complex paradigms of Indian culture, society, history and politics. You are using your American / Western filters that just don't fit. I already pointed out how the Tatas belong to the Parsee community and that they are not Hindus. You need to read up a bit on how Indian politics has a core Caste demographic and the Parsee community have no impact with their tiny numbers. The Parsee community does not make enough demographic impact to command any political appointments. All Indian political parties and governments at all levels (village, district, state and national) appoint / nominate people from specific castes & religions to represent / appease the electorate groups. The Parsees are too small a community to command such focus. On the other hand, the Parsee community is disproportionately represented in Industry, arts, philanthropy and more. Did politician listen to the Tatas and other Parsee leaders? Of course they did. Did they have influence? You bet that they did. But did they have influence enough to bend and manipulate the government? Absolutely not. They have no vote bank at all. Zero. You are claiming that the Tatas are successful because they are Oligarchs. But you first make the claim that they are Oligarchs! Very convenient but not logically sound. Americans have a very recent history and therefore their limited understanding of global issues is a major handicap to their mindset. Most Americans just think their 4% world view somehow covers the 7.7 billion global landscape! Republicans are worse as they think their tiny 0.001% West Texas represents the whole universe. India has been a very diverse country for several thousand years. Remember the post I made about Indian trade with Ancient Rome? India had many other leaders from other communities including the Sasoons (Bagdadi Jews), various Armenians etc. Many landmarks such as streets, suburbs, ports, markets etc. have been named after such people. Such families were successful and thrived without being oligarchs. You will NEVER convince any credible historian that the Tatas are oligarchs. This attitude of Republicans to discredit and personally attach anything good is typical Trumpism. Has anyone here got the basic integrity and intellectual ability to get back on topic and contribute to the discussion? Does anyone want to know what impact the Tatas have had on America and UK and the rest of the world?
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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So you think Ian Smith was not a racist eh? I presume you will say the same think about Apartheid! Did you go to school? Did you read some basic history? You post one stupid post on this thread and it has to do with bigotry and personal attack. Do you not have the basic decency to post something that contributed to the topic?
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Here is some amazing information about the Tata industrial organisation and the values of its leaders. ___________________________________ https://jharkhandstatenews.com...y%20first%20products. What Tata Motors offered to German Engineers was beyond their expectation, agreement R Harish Bhat 28 June 2021 It was the year 1946. Germany stood devastated by the Second World War. The Allies had won the war, and many German cities, including Munich, had been severely damaged by the British Royal Air Force. Munich, the picturesque capital of the Bavarian region of Germany, and centre of the country’s diesel engine production, had suffered as many as 74 air-raids. More than half the entire city had been damaged or destroyed. On one gloomy morning that year, at the Munich Railway station, stood the Directors of Krauss Maffei, the reputed German engineering Company. They were waiting for the arrival of their guests from India. Founded in 1838, Krauss Maffei was a leading maker of locomotives of various types, and an engineering company with a formidable reputation. Unfortunately, the Company now stood devastated by the World War, since their factories had been destroyed by the Allied Forces. The guests from India got down from their train. They were Directors from the Tata Group in India. If you had been there, you would have seen JRD Tata, the young, tall, lanky Chairman of the Group, get off the train. And accompanying him was a forty-year old engineer, Sumant Moolgaonkar, representing TELCO (now Tata Motors). They had come to Munich for discussions with Krauss Maffei, regarding the manufacture of locomotives in India. What they found, instead, were scenes of destruction and ruin. The Germans requested the Indians to take some of their unemployed engineers to India, alongwith their families, and provide them jobs and shelter. The Directors of Krauss Maffei are reported to have told the Tata Directors – "They are very skilled people. They will do whatever you ask them if you take care of them. They can also teach your people." This would have to be done without a formal contract, because the British, who were still ruling India, had forbidden Indian Companies from having any contracts with German Corporations, during those times of the World War. But this request was urgent, and compelling. Because in that year, with factories lying destroyed, unemployment in Germany was rampant, and the then German currency, the Reichsmark, had become almost worthless. The Tata Directors agreed to this request, and assured the Germans that their people would be well looked after. The German engineers from Krauss Maffei then came to India, and they were provided good jobs and housing by the Tata Group. They were well taken care of, and they also rendered great service to Tata Motors. In 1945, Tata Motors had signed an agreement with the Indian Railways for manufacture of steam locomotives, and this is where the German engineers provided valuable technical expertise. They helped the Company manufacture locomotives, which were amongst the Company’s very first products. In 1947, India became independent. In the 1950s, Tata Motors moved on to manufacture trucks in collaboration with Daimler Benz. Many years had now passed since that fateful meeting at the Munich Railway Station. Germany had substantially recovered from the ravages of the war, and the reconstruction effort had borne great fruit. In one of these happier years, the Board of Directors of Krauss Maffei was surprised to suddenly receive a letter from India. This letter was from the Tata Group. It offered grateful thanks for the services of the German engineers, and it contained an offer of compensation to Krauss Maffei for the skills which had been transferred by the Germans to Tata Motors. Krauss Maffei was surprised, even taken aback at this offer. There was no legal contract, and therefore no obligation for the Tata Group to pay any compensation. In fact, I think, neither did this expectation exist, because the Tata Group had helped by providing jobs and shelter to the otherwise unemployed German engineers, during those dark days. So, the Germans were astonished, as they read the Tata letter. This story was narrated many, many years later, in the 1970s, by Directors of Krauss Maffei, to Arun Maira, then a senior Director of Tata Motors. Arun Maira is one of India’s most respected and distinguished business thinkers today. In a thoughtful article that he wrote for the Economic Times in 2005 (thank you, Mr. Maira, for this wonderful piece), he recollects how two elderly German gentlemen met him as part of a business transaction in Malaysia, jumped up, shook his hands, and wanted to express their deepest gratitude to him. They then narrated to him this fascinating story, which, they said, is now part of their Company’s folklore. One interesting and unexpected sidelight of this story occurred when Tata Motors was asked to provide a legally binding financial guarantee in the 1970s, but this was rendered very difficult because of the Indian Government’s regulations at that time. This matter was taken up to German bankers, who said that a guarantee on a Tata letterhead, signed by the Chairman, was more valuable than any banker’s guarantee. I do not know what exact thoughts ran through the minds of Tata Directors in the 1950s before they sent that letter to Krauss Maffei, offering compensation where none was agreed upon or expected. But I think the Tata Group did this because it was the right thing to do. The right thing to do is never defined by formal agreements or legal contracts alone. Neither is it defined by the expectations that others have of us. What is right is defined by our own high expectations of ourselves, by the culture of fairness and trust that we wish to establish. Are we being truly fair to the people and the Companies we work with? We always know, if we listen deeply enough to our inner voice, whether we are being totally fair and right. The Krauss Maffei story holds such a beautiful lesson for all of us. *Note: Writer R.Harish Bhat is the Brand Custodian at Tata Sons. He joined the Tata Group in 1987, as an officer in the Tata Administrative Service (TAS). Currently, he is the Chairman of Tata Coffee Limited. He is a Director on the Boards of several other Tata Companies, including Trent Ltd., Tata Starbucks Pvt. Ltd., Infiniti Retail Ltd., Tata Unistore Ltd. and Tata AIA Life Insurance Company Limited. During his career spanning over 30 years with the Tata Group, Mr. Bhat has held several senior roles. These include stints as Managing Director of Tata Global Beverages Ltd., Chief Operating Officer of the Watches and Jewellery businesses of Titan Company Ltd., and the telecom business of the Group. He has played a key role in several strategic moves of the Group over the past two decades, including the launch and nurturing of many iconic brands of the Tata Group, the successful turnaround of the Jewellery business, as well as the acquisition of Tetley. (Mr. Bhat is an alumnus of BITS Pilani and IIM Ahmedabad, graduating at the top of his class in both institutions. He won the IIM Ahmedabad Gold Medal for scholastic excellence in 1987. A decade later, he won the Chevening Scholarship for young managers, awarded by the British Government. In 2017, he received the Distinguished Alumnus Award from BITS Pilani. He has strong professional interests in strategy, consumer behaviour, business economics and business history; and has been a member of the Consumer Insights Panel of the Economic Development Board, Government of Singapore. He is a member of the Board of Governors of the Advertising Standards Council of India (ASCI)). "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Oh, Ian Smith was very much a racist. At least, he tried to maintain a racist regime. | |||
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The above story with additional context. I hope someone with basic human decency will contribute constructively. I cannot imagine any other Chairman of the Board get this kind acknowledgement from a German bank or any other bank. https://economictimes.indiatim...1108292.cms?from=mdr The Economic Times By Arun Maira, TNNLast Updated: May 12, 2005, 11:08:00 PM IST Synopsis To change cultures, we must change the 'unwritten rules' that guide people, which they learn from the stories they are told and the people they admire. To change cultures, we must change the unwritten rules that guide people, which they learn from the stories they are told and the people they admire. Can businessmen be trusted to keep their word and honour their obligations, even if there is no legal compulsion to do so? This unspoken question kept popping up, like Banquo ghost, on a recent visit to the United States. I was with an Indian mission to promote India as a business destination. Always, China was the country that India was compared with. An advantage for India, subtly implied, was that it was a much safer place for business, with better standards of corporate governance and commercial laws. Unfortunately, at that time, the US news media was highlighting the fraud by some former employees of an Indian banking call centre, as well as a messy breakdown in corporate governance in one of India largest business firms. Even though stories of thefts of personal identity in the US, on a much larger scale than in India, and accounting shenanigans in some of the largest financial services companies in the US, were splattered across the front pages, it seemed that India business community had to pass a tougher test. Let me tell you a story. In 1977, an international bank that had given a loan to Tatab Industries in Malaysia, in which Telco was the technical collaborator and minority investor, decided to recall their loan because it was unhappy with the companys performance and governance. The banks chief executive came to Mumbai with an ultimatum. The bank would stay their action if Telco would take over the management of the company and guarantee the loan. Sumant Moolgaokar, chairman of Telco was distressed at the state of affairs and agreed to take over the management of the company. However, the banker also insisted on the guarantee. In the 1970s, Indian companies were forbidden to remit money or give guarantees abroad. Moolgaokar wrote a simple, one-page letter, in which he said that Telco would do whatever was required, and that could be done within the laws of the two countries, to ensure that the company would make a profit in even less time than the bankers expected and that their loan would be repaid. The banker was not pleased. He wanted a legally binding financial guarantee. Nevertheless, he took the letter to Deutsche Bank in Germany, who had been Telcos bankers through its formative years when Telco was in a joint venture with Daimler-Benz, and asked for an opinion. The German bankers said that a letter of assurance, on the Tata letterhead, signed by the chairman of the company, was far better than any bankers guarantee! The story does not end there. Some months later, I was invited by the Malaysian prince who was chairman of Tatab, to his home in Kuala Lumpur, where I had been deputed to manage the company. Two old German gentlemen were with the chairman. He introduced them as directors of Krauss Maffei, the German engineering company, and introduced me to them as the Indian MD of ‘his Tata company. Whereupon both jumped up, shook my hand, and said they wanted to express their deepest gratitude! Both the chairman and I were completely nonplussed. The Germans took the chairman permission to raise a toast to Tata and proceeded to tell us a remarkable story, which they said was part of their company folklore. The story goes that in 1946 or thereabouts, directors of Krauss Maffei had waited at the devastated Munich railway station for the arrival of two Indians JRD Tata and Sumant Moolgaokar. The Allies had destroyed Krauss Maffei factories. The Germans requested the Indians to take some engineers of Krauss Maffei and their families to India, and give them work and shelter. ‘They are very skilled people. They will do whatever you ask them if you take care of them. The Germans requested the Indians to take some engineers of Krauss Maffei and their families to India, and give them work and shelter. ‘They are very skilled people. They will do whatever you ask them if you take care of them. They can also teach your people. At that time, Indians were forbidden by the Allies to have any contracts with Germans. The Indians gave their word that the engineers and their families would be well looked after. And they were. Those German engineers helped the Tata Locomotive and Engineering Company, as it was known at its beginnings, to produce steam locomotives and road rollers, the companys first products. Years later, when India was independent, and the company moved on to produce trucks in collaboration with Daimler Benz, (changing its name to Tata Engineering and Locomotive Company Telco), the board of Krauss Maffei were startled to receive a letter from Tata with thanks for the services of with thanks for the services of the engineers and an offer of compensation for the skills transferred. They had never expected this, because there was no legal contract. However, what seemed to have motivated Tataâs was that it was the right thing to do. Instances such as these would have given Deutsche Bank the confidence they had in the word of Tatas, which they conveyed to Tatabs banker. Cultures are shaped by the unwritten rules that guide people, which they learn from the stories they are told and the heroes they admire. In his book, Happiness, Richard Layard of the London School of Economics writes: Our values can change. In the last forty years we have become increasingly individualistic, especially in Britain and the United States. We are ever more influenced by exaggerated versions of the ‘survival of the fittest (Charles Darwin) and the invisible hand (Adam Smith). A result has been the well-documented decline in trust. Therefore, the more we honour those who do the right thing even if it is not the law, and the less we admire the rich and successful who promote their own selfish interests, often living dangerously at the edge of law, the stronger will be the culture of trust in our business and society. Unfortunately we seem to be veering too far, even in India, towards a culture of self-interest and greed. Therefore, while we may complain about their costs and complexity, our corporate managers may have to be restrained by more onerous corporate laws. The alternative is to take the law into our own hands and hearts and do the right thing always. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Tata, Thanks for the great story. Is Tata the Indian company that now owns Jaguar cars? You can find good and evil wherever you want to find it. Brian PS. I just googled it. Tata owns Land Rover too. ( So, that's why the half shafts on the Land Rovers don't break any more! chuckle.) IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Yes Brian. Same Tata Motors. It is also the same company in the above story about German engineers.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I got it! Brown oligarch good. White oligarch bad! Naki is an incredible hypocrite.... . | |||
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This is embarrassing. You all are correct. It just shows his hate and prejudice towards Americans. | |||
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The problem is India’s political system is very oligarchical. It prevents certain the opportunity people from engaging politics and the economy equally. I have seen no argument made that Tata used his power to remove this consolidation of power. It is not just that oligarchs exists in any political/economic system. Elites will always be. The problem with an oligarchical political and economic system limits political and economic access. | |||
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How does one man change a culture of several billion people, especially when he is culturally an outsider? Examples of others who have single handily change such a large population when not engaged in politics? I do not think you will find many. I know a LITTLE bit about Indian culture, my long tern girlfriend in my 20's grew up there and her father was Jain, another group of outsiders in India who have little or no impact on Hindu custom. If you think one Oligarch has the ability to change Hindu custom and tradition then you have not been paying attention. | |||
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Ask Martin Luther or Martin Luther King JR. A great example is George Washington who expressly refused to become a constitutional monarch. I do not know specifics of India to say. Niki could or should. All I can do is ask. How did Tara use his wealth and power to break the cast system or ease tensions culturally and politically with muslims? This is why I reject the current trajectory of the GOP as it is too oligarchical seeking to remove certain citizens from equal participation. | |||
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The US is a small fraction of the size of India in regards to population. We never had anything remotely similar to a caste system here. I truly appreciate what MLK did but I do not think his accomplishments are anything close to breaking up the caste system in India, the scale is just not comparable. Naki pointed out that the Tata family used its wealth to bring the one thing that they could bring to the lower castes, opportunity in industry. I don't think you could realistically ask for much more than that. One man or family is not going to change the course of history for billions of people from the outside, nor should he(or they) be expected to. | |||
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Musk will. Bill gates probably. And not just for thier nation. But the entire world. | |||
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India is not anymore difficult than Europe in the 16th century. India’s cast system is not any stronger than what was faced by African Americans. I am not moved by, you can work for us, but we are not going to permit you to vote or have representation. I can ask for him to use his wealth to fund advocacy against the cast system. Did he use his wealth to produce literature and model legislation against the cast system? What politicians did he support w his wealth? What steps did he take to remove barriers based on birth and religion from engaging in politics and the economy. These are WM questions for the representative from India. They are not questions for I. The alternative is to admit the msn was an oligarch and maintained the status quo. | |||
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Why was this his battle to win? The man brought economic opportunity to those who did not have it, but you feel that he had to advocate to change an entire society? Literature and model legislation from a business man? That does not seem to be his lane in my view. Remove barriers based on birth and religion? Really? That seems like quite the requirement for a man who was not a politician. As Naki pointed out, the man was an outsider by definition, he was not part of the caste system. Not an oligarch by my standards, rather a man who made a success of himself despite the odds and who offered a hand up to those needing one. The power in India has to do with much more than wealth and one outsider won't change that. | |||
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It is his battle to fight if we take the position his wealth and power gave him the responsibility to try. That is what it would take for him not to be an oligarch. That he used his power and wealth to diffuse political and economic power out of the elites. I believe it does. Niki has advanced he did by using him as a fool with the U.S. I am still waiting for an actual argument that would negate Tata is not an Oligarch. Tata had no more responsibility than those previous examples. The point is they used their position to provide more political and economic access. We march on. We try to push the ball up the field. Others try to stop. Now, if someone wants to take the position Tata was an oligarch and had no reason nor obligation to at least try to diffuse the economic and political access in India. That is fine, okay, cool. I disagree, but it is an honest position. | |||
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Brilliantly put sir. The real issue here is the effort of some to personally attack and discredit. The logic is to label and demand a defence that will never be accepted. Like the BS you hear on Fox news. Doc Butler would be a star on Fox. BTW I would draw a similarity to Warren Buffet. The difference is that Buffet is an investor and not an industrialist. Buffet does not build and run cities and regional centres like the Tatas did.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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To elaborate on the Right wing play book, "Label and discredit" is what they try to label Kamala Harris as "border czar" when she had no authority on operations or even decision making. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I also don’t think his acts re the caste system have anything to do with oligarchical position as related to the current popular concept of an oligarch. Again, Mr. Tata was a good man and tried to do what he could to help some folks. Obviously he lived by his moral code. He was no hypocrite. That doesn’t mean he’s not an oligarch. He did more to help India than the vast majority of people did, even those with the ability to do more. | |||
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Ok Doc, so you would call Taylor Swift, all the great NFL, NBA, MLB stars etc as Oligarchs because they are public figure, very wealthy and influential. "They are successful and therefore they are Oligarchs".  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Can someone please explain why this discussion has been sidetracked instead of developing along constructive positive lines. What is the core value that is in play? What is the motive for sidetracking? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Here is another great leader from the Parsee community - Azim Premjee. Let me add that many of my family members are alumni of CMC, Vellore. Rs 500 crore = about US$ 60 to 70 million. Also note that the Right wing political groups and media are trying to discredit this by questioning why the donation was made to a Christian institution. Why other religious institutions were not given this donation. https://economictimes.indiatim...4082657.cms?from=mdr CMC Vellore gets Rs 500 crore grant from Azim Premji Foundation to set up medical college & teaching hospital in Andhra Pradesh By Viswanath Pilla, ET BureauLast Updated: Oct 09, 2024, 05:35:00 PM IST Synopsis CMC Vellore is partnering with the Azim Premji Foundation to establish a new medical college and upgrade an existing hospital on its Chittoor campus. With a Rs 500 crore grant, the project aims to enhance MBBS education and healthcare delivery, contributing to reducing disparities in India's healthcare sector. Christian Medical College (CMC) Vellore on Wednesday unveiled plans to set up a new medical college and a teaching hospital on its Chittoor campus in Andhra Pradesh in partnership with Azim Premji Foundation. As part of the agreement, the Azim Premji Foundation will extend a Rs 500 crore grant to CMC Vellore to set up the medical college and upgrade the existing 120-bed hospital into a teaching hospital with 422 beds. The grant will also enable CMC Vellore to extend the distinctive elements of their MBBS education and focus on the discipline of Primary-cum-Secondary Health Care (PSHC) to address the widening disparities in the Indian healthcare sector. “Our dream is that the new medical college and teaching hospital at our Chittoor Campus will offer a replicable model of relevant medical education, healthcare delivery, research, and outreach, sensitive to the financial, societal and resource constraints of our nation," said Dr. Vikram Mathews, director of CMC Vellore. "We are immensely grateful to the Azim Premji Foundation for partnering with us on this journey as CMC Vellore steps into her 125th anniversary in 2025,” Mathews added. “We are privileged to support them as they establish their second medical college,” said Anurag Behar, CEO, Azim Premji Foundation. Chittoor campus began with allied health science courses and a College of Nursing five years ago. The agreement builds on the close association between the two organisations that began in 2020 when the pandemic disrupt India’s healthcare system. CMC, located in Vellore, Tamil Nadu, is a 3675-bed multi-speciality healthcare institution of international repute. CMC’s primary, secondary, tertiary and quaternary-care hospitals are spread across the Vellore and Ranipet districts of Tamil Nadu and Chittoor district of Andhra Pradesh. Together, they serve over 32 lakh patients from around the country and South Asia, offering charitable subsidies of over Rs 300 crore annually. In the field of education, CMC Vellore has consistently been ranked 3 by the Ministry of Education, GoI. Medical, Nursing and Allied Health education is offered at CMC Vellore to over 2000 students every year, through 229 courses, at a fraction of the actual cost. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Just for folks awareness, the MBBS degree is the “European” type terminology for the same thing as an MD/DO degree here. It’s not completely identical, but close enough. | |||
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Taylor Swift is an oligarch. Where you draw the line for adequate wealth to qualify? Dunno. I’d call Michael Jordan an oligarch. LeBron James? Not so much so, although he certainly fits with outsized political influence. Snoop Dogg (whatever his real name is) is an oligarch. Axel Rose is not. Barack Obama is certainly an oligarch, although not by money. Oprah Winfrey is definitely one. | |||
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Agreed Doc, good post opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I would guess Shaq would fit in there also. | |||
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I can. I think most of us can. | |||
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Can one be wealthy and apolitical? Possibly, but not in the context of international business. A great example is George and William Randolph Hurst. Another would be JP Morgan or Rockefeller. The reason this thread got to this point is Niki tried to juxtaposes Tata as not being an oligarch while damning the U.S. as oligarchy. | |||
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wait .. what? JP wasn't political? did i wake up in a different universe? Hurst, Morgan, Rockefeller - dude, literally the definition of oligarchs - oh, except they didn't take ELECTED office . Hurst? here's what wiki has to say
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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You are making the assumption that wealth equals power in India, to a degree maybe but certainly within limits and it does not not override caste. This is the point, he was very wealthy, but not that powerful politically or socially, that kind of power in India comes from caste and social connections. You are viewing Indian culture through a western lens, an easy mistake to make at times but it just does not work with tribal cultures. See nation building in Afghanistan for further examples. | |||
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You got it all wrong. The issue about America was brought about by personal attacks and insult by a Bigoted Trumper. The original post was just about Tata and some links. Since you have been polite and mostly objective, I will request you to check your facts before accusing me.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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You are on record here Taya can teach the oligarch US. I cleaned it up. Well, your boy was an oligarch from your writings had not attempted to break or limit the cast system of India. He was an Oligarch, who like his U.S. counterparts, gave away large sums to charity. That is great. Yet, what did he do to try to change the system in India that prevents equal opportunity in the economy or political sphere based on ethnicity, sex/gender, religion, status created by the culture at birth? I have heard nothing. Now, if the man bought a bus line and said religious and ethnic segments can sit together and wherever on my buses, I’ll tip my hat. | |||
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Tata lacked the power to be an oligarch, that is the part you are missing. He was VERY wealthy, but he was not Hindu. He held little politic power in India in spite of his vast wealth. You keep trying to frame Asian culture in western terms, about like fitting a square peg in round hole. | |||
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The lack of political power is upon Niki to make. I respect your conclusion. However, this a conclusion. The term and definition are western. One can accuse us, me, of a racism by expecting Niki and India to after the term and definition. I will wear that. The problem becomes, he wants to tell us what an Oligarchy and oligarch is so addressing the political and economic situation of India. Yes, on the face of it I reject your assumptive conclusion. Those with less have done more. At least, here in the West. Again, of some one wants to tell me he could not attempt to weld political power through his great wealth or maintain his wealth through politics, they are going to have to do more then say so to prove it. Your position undermines his ability to be a leader which heads this thread. Your position undermines his ability to be a leader which heads this thread. All Noki had to do was not advance US as an oligarchical system controlled by corrupt oligarchs while using India as the juxtaposition w Tata. I would have not said a word. | |||
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Now you are not only being rude but dishonest One stupid bigoted AMERICAN started the BS. You have a problem, go and kick his ass. YOU have not proved Jack Shit. You just keep harping BS. You have not produced a shred of evidence to support your claim that Tata was a Oligarch. You have not given any proven definition in the English language to support your claim. You just say it and demand that I have to defend against your BS. The ONLY defence against BS is to call it BS. I don't care what you think as you are being unreasonable and dishonest. I have stated facts and provided evidence with proven definitions. No body has been able to disprove that but several have tried to make this into a personal fight. The whole world knows that the US is an Oligarchy and a criminal one at that. Why would your GOP nominate a 34 times criminally convicted felon for President? Utter DISGRACE. People like Lane want to vote for him because of his policies! Those are his Christian Nationalist values. Go figure. You and Doc want to make up your own definitions and demand that I defend my position. Go find another sucker to fall for it.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
I gave you the original recorded definition going back TJ Aristotle. I did not make up the definition. I also gave you scholarly accented definitions. You cannot get around that. | |||
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| One of Us |
You did not show evidence that Tata met those criteria. Just BS assertions. You also failed to acknowledge that US is a Criminal Oligarchy where a convicted criminal is trying to become president.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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