quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Dude your wiki link is dead

Anyway the US Declaration war on Germany after, after Germany declared war on us.

The Declaration of War on December 7, did not include Germany.

We then decided to send 80 percent of the War effort to Europe and 20 percent to the Pacific. Think about that. The U.S. fought the War in the Pacific on a budget.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Dude your wiki link is dead

Anyway the US Declaration war on Germany after, after Germany declared war on us.

The Declaration of War on December 7, did not include Germany.

We then decided to send 80 percent of the War effort to Europe and 20 percent to the Pacific. Think about that. The U.S. fought the War in the Pacific on a budget.

quote:

On December 11, 1941, the United States Congress declared war on Germany (Pub. L. 77–331, Sess. 1, ch. 564, 55 Stat. 796), hours after Germany declared war on the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Empire of Japan.[1] The vote was approved unanimously by both houses of Congress; 88–0 in the Senate and 393–0 in the House.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This is something of a debate about realpolitik and what is right.

I agree that Ukraine having its agreed upon historic borders is “right” but is it practical?

Russia is bigger. They have placed ethnic Russians on the ground in Crimea. Trying to revert to Ukrainian sovereignty is likely to be something that generates continued tension in Crimea, regardless. I don’t know that the Ukrainians regardless of western weapons and money are going to be able to bleed Russia enough for the average Russian to agree with giving up their only warm water port.

I don’t know that the Russians can convince the Ukrainians that Crimea is part of Russia, but I do think numbers will tell in the end, and the west (even the Eastern European NATO members) are not interested in actually sending troops in and widening the war just to get Crimea back in Ukrainian sovereignty.

The part that Trump is missing is that both sides need to want to end the war for it to end. Right now, both sides are too far apart as to what is acceptable for meaningful peace negotiations.

Is our giving weapons enough to shift that? I don’t know.

I can see Scott’s point of view that pouring more money in doesn’t serve us directly, and is unlikely to end this anytime soon… and it does risk us getting in the position where we get pushed into fighting because we get the in a position that we can’t back away.

What I worry most about is that we commit to Ukraine and thus become unable to deal with Chinese aggression due to over commitment. I do think that Peking is playing this much more than the Europeans admit and they definitely see Putin as a more direct threat now than the Chicoms, while to the US, China is really the only real potential existential threat.

accepting that one country can remove part of her land even wrongly done will be a premiere and will not end well ...

when the same will be done on palestinian soil you will understand what i wrote ...

now your president is supporting putin agression/war against ukraine and the ukrainians and expansionism and you are trying to find escuse to that because this is not a problem for usa ...

that is exactly the problem you have now and your country has no more allies ...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yeah, Hitler declared war on the US. The U.S. declared war on Japan.

The reason Hitler did that is he thought he had a mutual defense pact w Japan. Hitler’s declaration of war was designed to trigger that pact brining Japan into the War w Russia.

I guess we should just let Hitler declare war so a response.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I am sorry, but I don't quite understand what you wrote and how it invalidates what I posted.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This is something of a debate about realpolitik and what is right.

I agree that Ukraine having its agreed upon historic borders is “right” but is it practical?

Russia is bigger. They have placed ethnic Russians on the ground in Crimea. Trying to revert to Ukrainian sovereignty is likely to be something that generates continued tension in Crimea, regardless. I don’t know that the Ukrainians regardless of western weapons and money are going to be able to bleed Russia enough for the average Russian to agree with giving up their only warm water port.

I don’t know that the Russians can convince the Ukrainians that Crimea is part of Russia, but I do think numbers will tell in the end, and the west (even the Eastern European NATO members) are not interested in actually sending troops in and widening the war just to get Crimea back in Ukrainian sovereignty.

The part that Trump is missing is that both sides need to want to end the war for it to end. Right now, both sides are too far apart as to what is acceptable for meaningful peace negotiations.

Is our giving weapons enough to shift that? I don’t know.

I can see Scott’s point of view that pouring more money in doesn’t serve us directly, and is unlikely to end this anytime soon… and it does risk us getting in the position where we get pushed into fighting because we get the in a position that we can’t back away.

What I worry most about is that we commit to Ukraine and thus become unable to deal with Chinese aggression due to over commitment. I do think that Peking is playing this much more than the Europeans admit and they definitely see Putin as a more direct threat now than the Chicoms, while to the US, China is really the only real potential existential threat.

accepting that one country can remove part of her land even wrongly done will be a premiere and will not end well ...

when the same will be done on palestinian soil you will understand what i wrote ...

now your president is supporting putin agression/war against ukraine and the ukrainians and expansionism and you are trying to find escuse to that because this is not a problem for usa ...

that is exactly the problem you have now and your country has no more allies ...

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Sudetten lands before and after WW2, Ukraine takeover of western lands on Slovakian and Hungarian border, eastern Poland takeover by Ukraine, Kosovo takeover by Albanians away from Serbia and on and on we can go and I’m not even going back to post WW1
It’s a pits but if history is any lesson, it’ll be a shit show forever

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Sudetten lands before and after WW2, Ukraine takeover of western lands on Slovakian and Hungarian border, eastern Poland takeover by Ukraine, Kosovo takeover by Albanians away from Serbia and on and on we can go and I’m not even going back to post WW1
It’s a pits but if history is any lesson, it’ll be a shit show forever

borders were decided when ussr collapsed your country decided with europe to support the war against the enemy that was russian leader putin now your country is changed her thune and does not want to support ukraine and favors russia against the will of europe that was part of nato ... your country destroyed the relationships between neighbours, allies and friends tell me how it will end well lol ...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Sudetten lands before and after WW2, Ukraine takeover of western lands on Slovakian and Hungarian border, eastern Poland takeover by Ukraine, Kosovo takeover by Albanians away from Serbia and on and on we can go and I’m not even going back to post WW1
It’s a pits but if history is any lesson, it’ll be a shit show forever

borders were decided when ussr collapsed your country decided with europe to support the war against the enemy that was russian leader putin now your country is changed her thune and does not want to support ukraine and favors russia against the will of europe that was part of nato ... your country destroyed the relationships between neighbours, allies and friends tell me how it will end well lol ...

Ukraine played a major role is the final collapse of the USSR. I think that some of that history is why Putin is out for them.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Russia will never give up a warm water port

quote:

Originally posted by HerrBerg:
This is bullshit.

Just let Ukraine kill russian and destroy russian property at a high rate, and let the russian economy grind to a halt in a storm of inflation, labor shortage, and the general inability to do anything else than produce misery - their core export commodity.

There are almost no T72's showing up at the contact lines anymore. russian stockpiles are running dry.

The US today consist of hand wringers. And China is watching. The way you treat Ukraine today shows how you will treat Taiwan next year.

The occupied territories are under the heel of russia. Their countrymen who were misfortunate enough to live in the eastern provices will have their kids killed if theis kids should choose to resist the masters assigned to them.

The Soviet Union lost Afghanistan at the height of their power. And the US did too. Because the afghan will to stay in the fight was higher. The lesson is: it's not about the size of the dog in the fight. It's about the size of the fight in the dog.

Two years ago, US aid was critical for Ukraine. Not so much anymore. Drone warfare is cheap. The big risk for Ukraine is not that the US steps out of Ukraine, but that the US lowers the pressure on russia and delaying their economical collapse. Because agent Krasnov, and the meek americans who tolerate the shitshow he has started.

quote:

Originally posted by HerrBerg:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Again, Ukraine do a global power shifting conflict has not and cannot expel Russia from Crimea. They have not done so in 10 years.

The vietnamese could expel the US from Vietnam (and France, China).
The afghans could expel the US and the Soviet Union.

That is just a statement you pulled from your butt. Why should that be true? There were no consequences in 2014. Europe bought oil and gas. Everybody kept russia happy. Economy was booming.

Look at where russia is heading now instead.

The correct question is: can Ukraine expel russians from Crimea, in the midst of a finaincial russian meltdown, ongoing russian civil war, bread riots around the russian cities, and revolting eastern provinces?

Sure they can. Maybe just one of them is enough.

In a fight, you fight without knowing HOW you will win. Stay in the fight and victory is likely to show herself to you. Leave the fight and there is zero chance she will. In the early days of the invasion, NOBODY knew if anybody would come to help. Germany sent 5000 helmets

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This is something of a debate about realpolitik and what is right.

I agree that Ukraine having its agreed upon historic borders is “right” but is it practical?

Russia is bigger. They have placed ethnic Russians on the ground in Crimea. Trying to revert to Ukrainian sovereignty is likely to be something that generates continued tension in Crimea, regardless. I don’t know that the Ukrainians regardless of western weapons and money are going to be able to bleed Russia enough for the average Russian to agree with giving up their only warm water port.

I don’t know that the Russians can convince the Ukrainians that Crimea is part of Russia, but I do think numbers will tell in the end, and the west (even the Eastern European NATO members) are not interested in actually sending troops in and widening the war just to get Crimea back in Ukrainian sovereignty.

The part that Trump is missing is that both sides need to want to end the war for it to end. Right now, both sides are too far apart as to what is acceptable for meaningful peace negotiations.

Is our giving weapons enough to shift that? I don’t know.

I can see Scott’s point of view that pouring more money in doesn’t serve us directly, and is unlikely to end this anytime soon… and it does risk us getting in the position where we get pushed into fighting because we get the in a position that we can’t back away.

What I worry most about is that we commit to Ukraine and thus become unable to deal with Chinese aggression due to over commitment. I do think that Peking is playing this much more than the Europeans admit and they definitely see Putin as a more direct threat now than the Chicoms, while to the US, China is really the only real potential existential threat.

accepting that one country can remove part of her land even wrongly done will be a premiere and will not end well ...

when the same will be done on palestinian soil you will understand what i wrote ...

now your president is supporting putin agression/war against ukraine and the ukrainians and expansionism and you are trying to find escuse to that because this is not a problem for usa ...

that is exactly the problem you have now and your country has no more allies ...

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I agree that we should continue our military support for Ukraine.... With full accountability...... As long as European countries meet or exceed our contributions.

Europe and their bullshit has led to TWO world wars....wars that never threatened our shores! Have you heard of Pearl Harbor? My God, you are a dumbass. And we had to involve American blood and treasure to resolve.

Europe needs to pull their frieght!!!

We need to be the last resort, we have enough of our own problems

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Dude your wiki link is dead

Anyway the US Declaration war on Germany after, after Germany declared war on us.

The Declaration of War on December 7, did not include Germany.

We then decided to send 80 percent of the War effort to Europe and 20 percent to the Pacific. Think about that. The U.S. fought the War in the Pacific on a budget.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This is something of a debate about realpolitik and what is right.

I agree that Ukraine having its agreed upon historic borders is “right” but is it practical?

Russia is bigger. They have placed ethnic Russians on the ground in Crimea. Trying to revert to Ukrainian sovereignty is likely to be something that generates continued tension in Crimea, regardless. I don’t know that the Ukrainians regardless of western weapons and money are going to be able to bleed Russia enough for the average Russian to agree with giving up their only warm water port.

I don’t know that the Russians can convince the Ukrainians that Crimea is part of Russia, but I do think numbers will tell in the end, and the west (even the Eastern European NATO members) are not interested in actually sending troops in and widening the war just to get Crimea back in Ukrainian sovereignty.

The part that Trump is missing is that both sides need to want to end the war for it to end. Right now, both sides are too far apart as to what is acceptable for meaningful peace negotiations.

Is our giving weapons enough to shift that? I don’t know.

I can see Scott’s point of view that pouring more money in doesn’t serve us directly, and is unlikely to end this anytime soon… and it does risk us getting in the position where we get pushed into fighting because we get the in a position that we can’t back away.

What I worry most about is that we commit to Ukraine and thus become unable to deal with Chinese aggression due to over commitment. I do think that Peking is playing this much more than the Europeans admit and they definitely see Putin as a more direct threat now than the Chicoms, while to the US, China is really the only real potential existential threat.

accepting that one country can remove part of her land even wrongly done will be a premiere and will not end well ...

when the same will be done on palestinian soil you will understand what i wrote ...

now your president is supporting putin agression/war against ukraine and the ukrainians and expansionism and you are trying to find escuse to that because this is not a problem for usa ...

that is exactly the problem you have now and your country has no more allies ...

What exactly is Canada doing about it????? Expanding their socialized medicine and enacting stricter gun laws????

Spend your money boyo! Send your troops! Go get em!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Dude your wiki link is dead

Anyway the US Declaration war on Germany after, after Germany declared war on us.

The Declaration of War on December 7, did not include Germany.

We then decided to send 80 percent of the War effort to Europe and 20 percent to the Pacific. Think about that. The U.S. fought the War in the Pacific on a budget.

I hate to agree with Heym, but he is right, dead right!

Europe would be speaking German if we hadn't saved your dumbasses!