quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:


If Israel and Iran go to war, the US should stay the hell out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Time to pick a side.

Your country or your masters!



ON JUNE 8, 1967, while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel. Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action. The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap.

At 1400 hours, while approximately about 17 nautical miles off the northern Sinai coast and about 25 nautical miles northwest of El Arish, USS Liberty’s crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading. Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter aircraft launched a rocket attack on USS Liberty. The aircraft made repeated firing passes, attacking USS Liberty with rockets and their internal cannons. After the first flight of fighter aircraft had exhausted their ordnance, subsequent flights of Israeli fighter aircraft continued to prosecute the attack with rockets, cannon fire, and napalm.

During the air attack, USS Liberty’s crew had difficulty contacting Sixth Fleet to request assistance due to intense communications jamming. The initial targets on the ship were the command bridge, communications antennas, and the four .50 caliber machine guns, placed on the ship to repel boarders. After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack. The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship’s research spaces. Twenty-five Americans, in addition to the nine who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

The Department of Defense Law of War Program (DoD Directive 2311.01E – formerly DoD Directive 5100.77) provides that “All reportable incidents committed by or against U.S. personnel, enemy persons, or any other individual are reported promptly, investigated thoroughly, and, where appropriate, remedied by corrective action.”

On June 8, 2005 the USS Liberty Veterans Association submitted A Report of War Crimes Committed Against the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967 to the Department of Defense in accordance with the DoD Law of War Program.

The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:

The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had een launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.
The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.

Saeed, this guy seems to think the Palestinians have made a habit of pissing away opportunities for a half a century...

Link

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:


If Israel and Iran go to war, the US should stay the hell out of it.

Probably can't for a few reasons. We have a base in Israel, can't go letting that get over run.
I'm guessing we have treaties and aid agreements in place. Tearing those up at the beginning of a war we don't like is bad form.
If the US left Israel on their own I think it's a guarantee the entire Muslim world would join Iran in the fight to erase Israel. Every Jihadist from Afghanistan to Chad has only one question, "is Uncle Sam coming or not?" If not, the opposition would include every fighting man from Chechnya to Angola. You and I remember the American citizens that left the US to go fight for ISIS. Man, there's not be a single mosque in America that wasn't half empty if we don't fight with Israel. If Israel is defeated, if The River to the Sea becomes reality, who do you think the Caliphate will eyeball next? It's tou and me White Man. That you claim agnostic ain't gonna help you, we're both Infidels.

I think radical Islam, needs to be silenced. We didn't in Afghanistan, we didn't in Iraq or Syria and it's getting louder. Now is a great time. After the first strike hit Iran hard and mean and fast. Take no prisoners, send no aid, keep the Red Cross out. "Other" can pass out bandaids, "those guys" can send food aid. We hit em hard and suggest they don't try again.

I don't see an alternative, like I said, it's getting louder. Did you see my post regarding an "ISIS affiliated smuggling network getting bodies across our southern border"?

Man that's funny in the sickest way.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
We do not have a multi defense treaty w Israel.

We have never w direct military intervention involved ourself in Israel’s wars.

If they want one, it is on them and the kids of their security or potential gain.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Scott, I remember you saying you opposed foreign wars, that you didn't want your daughter involved in one.

You've gotten a lot more bellicose since then.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Scott, I remember you saying you opposed foreign wars, that you didn't want your daughter involved in one.

You've gotten a lot more bellicose since then.

I hope I'm not.

I do oppose foreign wars. America has no stake in Somalia, Iraq, Ukraine or Afghanistan. In most cases america inserts itself to "Introduce Democracy" into cultures that don't need or want it. Stopping and occasional genocide like Rwanda would be preferable but hostilities need to be quickly crushed and the Marines need a speedy exit plan. Don't unpack to many bags.

I say no to any more Vietnams.

Israel is very different. You know they are physically surrounded by sworn enemy who by the way is our enemy. I think I'm right, if Israel falls we are the next target. We know we're already on the list. How does a unified caliphate look to you R?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I'd much rather see my tax dollars go to Ukraine than Israel. We have been funding Israel's defense for as long as I have been alive, when do they start paying for their own way?

Or at least trying to be part of the solution instead of undermining any chance of peace so they can continue building settlements until the Palestinians have no hope of a nation.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I'd much rather see my tax dollars go to Ukraine than Israel. We have been funding Israel's defense for as long as I have been alive, when do they start paying for their own way?

Or at least trying to be part of the solution instead of undermining any chance of peace so they can continue building settlements until the Palestinians have no hope of a nation.

I find that odd. Ukraine has been in and out of the Russian sphere for centuries and has been well documented as horribly corrupt. Out of nowhere putting all our hopes, dreams and virtues on "new guy" seems naive and even recent history has taught us likely to fail.

All those old Ukrainian Oligarchs? They've disappeared? Found Jesus? Attend AA meetings faithfully? There still there Man, the old system is still in place. Once again America thinks it sees these miraculous rainbows of western democracy and liberty where it just ain't and ain't gonna be anymore than it is in Afghanistan today.

Same thing Steve, Afghanistan was pur tax dollars too. What does a unified caliphate look like to you Steve?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I'd much rather see my tax dollars go to Ukraine than Israel. We have been funding Israel's defense for as long as I have been alive, when do they start paying for their own way?

Or at least trying to be part of the solution instead of undermining any chance of peace so they can continue building settlements until the Palestinians have no hope of a nation.

I find that odd. Ukraine has been in and out of the Russian sphere for centuries and has been well documented as horribly corrupt. Out of nowhere putting all our hopes, dreams and virtues on "new guy" seems naive and even recent history has taught us likely to fail. You do realize that the moment Bibi is out of power his corruption trial resumes right? That dude is as corrupt as they come.

All those old Ukrainian Oligarchs? They've disappeared? Found Jesus? Attend AA meetings faithfully? There still there Man, the old system is still in place. Once again America thinks it sees these miraculous rainbows of western democracy and liberty where it just ain't and ain't gonna be anymore than it is in Afghanistan today. I see the Ukrainians as people standing up to Russian aggression....maybe they have had a bit to much Russian influence over the years. They seem much more interested in joining the EU than joining back up with Russia.

Same thing Steve, Afghanistan was pur tax dollars too. What does a unified caliphate look like to you Steve? How many more years Scott? We were there 20 years, never won the hearts and minds and never were going to. Those folks do not want our western ways....just ask them.

quote:

Isn't 50 plus years of supporting the Israeli's defense enough?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Isn't 50 plus years of supporting the Israeli's defense enough?

Eternity would just barely suit me.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Isn't 50 plus years of supporting the Israeli's defense enough?

Eternity would just barely suit me.

Why in hell should they not pay for their own defense?

We have given them nearly 1 trillion dollars(adjusted for inflation) which seems like way, way too much to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Scott, I remember you saying you opposed foreign wars, that you didn't want your daughter involved in one.

You've gotten a lot more bellicose since then.

I hope I'm not.

I do oppose foreign wars. America has no stake in Somalia, Iraq, Ukraine or Afghanistan. In most cases america inserts itself to "Introduce Democracy" into cultures that don't need or want it. Stopping and occasional genocide like Rwanda would be preferable but hostilities need to be quickly crushed and the Marines need a speedy exit plan. Don't unpack to many bags.

I say no to any more Vietnams.

Israel is very different. You know they are physically surrounded by sworn enemy who by the way is our enemy. I think I'm right, if Israel falls we are the next target. We know we're already on the list. How does a unified caliphate look to you R?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Jordan certainly is not.

Afghanistan was not a failure.

Afghanistan on the eve of our withdrawal had girls in school and women governors.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Scott, I remember you saying you opposed foreign wars, that you didn't want your daughter involved in one.

You've gotten a lot more bellicose since then.

I hope I'm not.

I do oppose foreign wars. America has no stake in Somalia, Iraq, Ukraine or Afghanistan. In most cases america inserts itself to "Introduce Democracy" into cultures that don't need or want it. Stopping and occasional genocide like Rwanda would be preferable but hostilities need to be quickly crushed and the Marines need a speedy exit plan. Don't unpack to many bags.

I say no to any more Vietnams.

Israel is very different. You know they are physically surrounded by sworn enemy who by the way is our enemy. I think I'm right, if Israel falls we are the next target. We know we're already on the list. How does a unified caliphate look to you R?

Egypt and Jordan (which border on Israel) are our enemies? News to me. I wonder why Trump made such a big deal out of his so-called rapport with the president of Egypt. Perhaps the $10 million bribe helped.

Your "unified caliphate" is an Iranian fantasy. Don't let it be your nightmare.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Time to pick a side.

Your country or your masters!



ON JUNE 8, 1967, while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel. Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action. The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap.

At 1400 hours, while approximately about 17 nautical miles off the northern Sinai coast and about 25 nautical miles northwest of El Arish, USS Liberty’s crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading. Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter aircraft launched a rocket attack on USS Liberty. The aircraft made repeated firing passes, attacking USS Liberty with rockets and their internal cannons. After the first flight of fighter aircraft had exhausted their ordnance, subsequent flights of Israeli fighter aircraft continued to prosecute the attack with rockets, cannon fire, and napalm.

During the air attack, USS Liberty’s crew had difficulty contacting Sixth Fleet to request assistance due to intense communications jamming. The initial targets on the ship were the command bridge, communications antennas, and the four .50 caliber machine guns, placed on the ship to repel boarders. After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack. The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship’s research spaces. Twenty-five Americans, in addition to the nine who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

The Department of Defense Law of War Program (DoD Directive 2311.01E – formerly DoD Directive 5100.77) provides that “All reportable incidents committed by or against U.S. personnel, enemy persons, or any other individual are reported promptly, investigated thoroughly, and, where appropriate, remedied by corrective action.”

On June 8, 2005 the USS Liberty Veterans Association submitted A Report of War Crimes Committed Against the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967 to the Department of Defense in accordance with the DoD Law of War Program.

The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:

The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had een launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.
The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.

Saeed, this guy seems to think the Palestinians have made a habit of pissing away opportunities for a half a century...

Link

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
So does that mean we pay for Israel's defense forever? 50 years? Kinda makes the 20 years and billions we spent in Afghanistan look like lunch money spent on a long weekend.

I'm much more concerned with stability in Europe than I am with the security of Israel.

Israel has has done everything possible to undermine a two state solution, so they can keep on expanding their settlements and take more land.

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran? Bibi stays in power longer, puts off his corruption trial for a bit, peace is farther away and Hamas has a new leader. Oh yeah, and America will spend billions defending Israel from Iranian reprisal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxjjvdq7eyo

If it were up to me the Israelis would not get another red cent or round of .223 ammo.

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?

quote:

With our own decaying infrastructure and so many people living on the streets, we shouldn't be giving another country a blank check for its pet wars

quote:

With our own decaying infrastructure and so many people living on the streets, we shouldn't be giving another country a blank check for its pet wars any of our treasure.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

With our own decaying infrastructure and so many people living on the streets, we shouldn't be giving another country a blank check for its pet wars

Sounds like America First!

quote:

With our own decaying infrastructure and so many people living on the streets, we shouldn't be giving another country a blank check for its pet wars any of our treasure.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?

Killing Saddam created a power vacuum!

Everyone was saying it before it happened.

But, Cheney and his lab dog, Bush 2, went ahead and invaded Iraq again.

Paving the way for ISIS.

I have absolutely no doubt it was done on purpose!

Your military industry won’t make much money in peace time!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What was achieved by the assignation in Iran?

What was achieved by hunting down and killing Hussein, Bin Laden, Soleimani?