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| One of Us |
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...6b73f7e0834a59&ei=51 So now presidential pardons aren't valid unless trump did it? | ||
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Moderator |
Totally disagree with Trump's opinion, which is unenforceable Well, you MIGHT recall that the left media was all flutter in 2020 and early 21 that "Trump might issue unconstitutional Blanket pardons to his family" which never materialized.. it was all doom and gloomy and entirely corrupt and misuse of presidential powers... Oh, you'll say you don't of course Not defending Trump, but am asking the question, what, in your opinion, changed in the last 4 years that you are cool with it? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
not easy sometimes to walk on thin ice Jeff ... | |||
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| Moderator |
A turd is a turd.. being able to see it through the trappings should be a good life skill I think the blanket pardon threat was utterly stupid. Doing it feels like an abuse of presidential powers, but nothing limits it Trying to revoke them isn't a presidential power,and I doubt any judge would pick it up, unless forced to by another stupid act by Trump. The only thin ice on my part is trying to word it where a "true believer" might take a breath and look at both sides opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, farce investigations and prosecutions (lawfare) never materialized for Trump's family despite not having preemptive pardons. Besides, that is aside the point of the OP, which is the autopen and the issue of whether Trump can declare a former president's pardons void. The OP article linked is worth reading for info. Here's another archive article that is still relevant: https://www.tampabay.com/archi...t-of-the-signatures/ The secret of the signatures Did a president really sign it, or did an autopen? That's hard to say. Published June 27, 2011 Excerpts: For decades, presidents of both parties have let an autopen do some of the heavy lifting when it comes to scrawling their signatures. The machine was recently put to use signing a bill into law, apparently a first. Overseas and out of reach when lawmakers passed an extension of certain provisions of the Patriot Act, President Barack Obama employed the autopen to sign it, a step the White House has been mum about ever since. Jim Cicconi, who oversaw the use of autopens for former President George H.W. Bush, recalls that the plastic signature templates for the machines - yes, there was more than one autopen - would wear out from repeated use. Former President Ronald Reagan had 22 different signature templates, including "Ron," ''Dutch" and other iterations, to boost the aura of authenticity surrounding his fake signatures, says Stephen Koschal, an autograph authenticator who two years ago published a guide to presidential autopen signatures. Obama took the presidential autopen out of the closet and into a new realm. While traveling in Europe last month, he directed his staff in Washington to use an autopen to sign into law an extension of certain Patriot Act powers to fight terrorism. The legislation had been approved by Congress at the last minute, and there was no time to fly it to France for Obama's signature before the antiterrorism powers expired. It was believed to be the first time a president has used an autopen to sign legislation, and that didn't sit well with a number of Republicans. Twenty-one Republican House members sent Obama a letter on June 17 asking him to re-sign the legislation with his actual signature because use of the autopen "appears contrary to the Constitution." Obama's team relied on a 29-page legal analysis crafted during the administration of President George W. Bush to argue that the faux signature passed constitutional muster. Autopens have been used by presidents since Dwight Eisenhower, says Koschal, and President John F. Kennedy put them to heavy use. Many presidents have had secretaries sign their names to correspondence and documents, he says. More than 200 years ago, Thomas Jefferson acquired a mechanical copying device called a polygraph that attached to his pen and made a second copy of what he was writing. Jefferson liked it so much he wrote that "I could not, now therefore, live without the Polygraph." ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
Blanket pardons where just beyond evil.......until Joes auto pen signed a whole bunch of them!!!! Never even heard of a preemptive pardon until joebamas auto pen signed a bunch of em????????? Go figger? | |||
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| One of Us |
We never had a POTUS as bent on lawfare and revenge and disrespect for rule of law like Trump before either. Quid pro quo pardons are evil. You know - silence for pardon. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
Ford's pardon of Nixon was "pre-emptive" because he had not been charged with a crime, but I'm not surprised you never heard of it. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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One of Us |
I used to be able to tell myself that presidential pardons were at best ok because they were used with limits by somewhat honorable executives. I don't believe that anymore and I'd favor a change in the law that got rid of pardons entirely. | |||
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| One of Us |
https://youtube.com/shorts/wgm...?si=CfablYB0ipzwC8zX lil Donald is big mad ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
That would require a constitutional amendment. I do not support such an action. | |||
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| One of Us |
Confound it, you beat me to it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jtex: You need to temper that based on the S. Ct., most recent presidential immunity decision that you praised a president is immune from official acts. The Court explicitly held that a president’s intent in exercising an official act shall not be considered by a court asked to adjudicate presidential immunity. Therefore, President Biden enjoys immunity for exercising an official act, granting a pardon vested in by the Constitution. A court is not permitted to address President Biden’s intent in granting the pardons. Thus, you can thank the S. Ct., for overturning our prior precedent on Presidential Immunity to keep President Trump from being prosecuted. I have said it a thousand times. The powers you give to one party is the power you give to your worst enemy. That immunity decision President Trump and his followers and supporters desperately needed is now granting immunity to presidents like Biden. Enjoy the equal application of law and the consequences of your advocacy. | |||
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| One of Us |
Why not? If its done in a proper manor with the correct process then surely it removes one of the biggest potential corruption risks in your presidential system? | |||
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| Administrator |
The whole idea of pardons is to the whoever is giving them Brownie Points! Nothing else! | |||
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| One of Us |
In addition to quid pro quo, I'm sure Trump has noticed what a valuable tool he has in his official acts toolbox. How much is a pardon worth? How much is a preemptive pardon worth? Is Trump the one to set precedence by selling pardons? I can think of three examples where he already did that. Manafort, Stone and Navarro. That was under-the-table of course. Silence for pardon, and in Navarro's case a job. BTW, I'm sure it is Navarro and Miller who are feeding Trump all these ways we see attacking the rule of law. Probably Miller more than Navarro since he's the one in charge of bringing manufacturing jobs and infrastructure back to the US. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 I'm usually dead against any constitutional amendment, but this is different. We're not talking about removing liberties from We the People. POTUS has proven redundantly that not only does the office wield to much power but they are a moral, petulant children that cannot be trusted with an authority to pardon and make good choices. Like any juvenile delinquent, if they can't handle the privilege, they shouldn't have it. Change the Constitution, remove a temptation that POTUS can't resist behaving badly with. If POTUS earns the privilege of pardons back, give it back to them. There is only good to be had from restricting executive authority. | |||
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| One of Us |
President Washington and Johnson pardoned folks who picked up and shot guns. This with Biden is a nothing. | |||
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| One of Us |
It's superficial. There are tools already available to restrict executive authority, and to avoid the situation of letting a monster like Trump in the WH door. The tools are failing and once in the door Trump will work hard at their further failure. There are ways for a monster like Trump to "pardon" even with an amendment. Intimidation, threats, coercion, farce investigations and prosecutions, on one side of the coin. The other side is failure, dismiss, ignore crimes, and even encourage them. It's called corruption or malfeasance, and it is being demonstrated daily for us to watch. The constitution means little but a small obstacle. Amendments mean even less in Trumpworld. America has failed the test, which the Founders feared. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| one of us |
Pardons are quite valuable, it was reported that Rudy Giuliani was getting $2 million apiece for them. Hell, that’s way easier money than gold sneakers, ‘hero’ bubble gum cards or bibles. | |||
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| One of Us |
The real problem isn't Trump. It's the fact that fellow Americans put him in a position of power, supposedly to serve them (not us) in various ways. It was an intentional thing. They knew or should have known his character and what he said he would do. They approved then and many still approve. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...ZA1?ocid=socialshare Americans 'need an alternative': Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson on political division, & their new book In his second term, President Donald Trump is promising Americans less government, less bureaucracy, and less regulation. But in their new book, journalists Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson argue that America can achieve greatness by leaning more, not less, into what makes us special. The pair discuss their new book, "Abundance," on The Eleventh Hour. https://youtube.com/shorts/mNx...?si=XFicA-VxHZGx7Bh6 Richard Wolff on Economic Shifts in the 1930s https://youtu.be/_8iOadxZHvs?si=Z4dDtqAgFDlsZvi5 Richard Wolff: The Final Case Against Donald J. Trump ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
Obviously he hasn't done enough yet to make them regret their choice. Give me a home where the buffalo roam and I'll show you a house full of buffalo shit. | |||
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| Moderator |
I get it, you hate. But it was Biden that did the things you seem to also hate All of them are dirty opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Some expect a lot more - doubled down. The only regret some people will have, supposing the "system" survives, is he failed to achieve fascism. They won't give up hope however. They are relentless. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
IMO, you don't "get" shit. Yea, I don't like that Biden (and Dems) failed us in several ways. Two ways for example are his decline and Hunter. IMO it's reasonable to say he couldn't have prevented that. OTOH, the stuff Trump is doing is intentional and purposeful and broad scale as to buy-in. I don't believe for a second that any Lib wanted Biden to decline cognitively nor wanted Hunter to do drugs and do the shit he did, or approve or forgive after the fact. There is a yuge difference comparatively. Also, I don't appreciate that your project "hate" upon anyone. That's not for you to judge. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
You get an "F" for mind reading. | |||
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| One of Us |
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| One of Us |
I think Biden abused the authority given to him under the constitution with his end of term pardons. But they are there, and nothing is to be done about them except not electing someone like him again. The use of the auto pen while a massive indictment of the character of Biden, isn’t enough to me to justify getting rid of the pardon power or, for that matter, voiding the pardons. We can still investigate these individuals and publicize what they did, we just cannot (and should not) prosecute them. As I see it, there are two good reasons for pardons. First is to correct errors of the system. While rare, they can happen even with the system working as designed. Add in bad faith issues, and it happens more. The second is for the good of the country. Pardoning the whisky rebellion folks or the confederates was needed to heal the nation. It’s up to us as voters to ensure we use our votes right to ensure we not only elect the right guy, but nominate the right person. This last election was a failure on all of us. Poor candidates forced a lot of lesser evil votes that folks probably would rather have had a different choice. Shame on all of us. | |||
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| One of Us |
Except what you think and the vested power by the Constitution are not the same. And I would gladly take VP Harris any day. The two do not compare. The voters, sovereign people, disagreed. Thus, much like you and the Constitution, what I think is not the political reality. Buddy shows me a picture of egg prices at an IGA, regional cheap grocery, 14 dollars. Winning like that who needs the Constitution. Harris would not have signed an executive order voiding a section of the Constitution. Trump did. There is no comparison. | |||
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