The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Can Ukraine win?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
In some thread or another, I saw Lane post that Ukraine has no chance. I believe he is wrong...if we continue to support them. I'd like to ask Lane what he thinks of all the world's experts who said the Americans had no chance to win in 1776. Such a defeatist attitude is contrary to what Texans are supposed to be about. How can a Texan of all people want to give up? The French didn't abandon us in the American revolution. We shouldn't abandon Ukraine in its own fight for freedom. | ||
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One of Us |
Russia thought it would be over in a couple of weeks, yet here we are 3 years later. Saeed will be along shortly to explain how Russia has been kicking everyone’s arse. | |||
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One of Us |
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now. | |||
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| Administrator |
And for the past three years you lot were predicting the end of Russia! The West is in utter hypocrisy! They went to extreme lengths to destroy Russia! Stolen individuals goods, just because they were Russians. Had unbelievable restrictions imposed on Russia, boycotts and all sorts of things. Gave their puppet endless line of arms. Can I ask you to answer just one question? Why hasn’t America EVER gotten the same treatment each time it invades and destroys countries? Why did all the silly puppets ruling Europe keep their mouths shut when America bombed Iran? I don’t like either Putin or Trump. Or any of Europes stupid puppets like Mini Napoleon and your own Mini Salin!  | |||
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| One of Us |
Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might. If Zelensky is willing to give up some tracts of disputed territory to Russia the war will come to an abrupt end and from the gist of the recent meeting held at the WH, it seems to be heading in that direction; the mere fact that Zelensky was more appropriately dressed for the occasion suggests his arrogance has been subdued. We shall see once the scheduled tripartite meeting bears fruit. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yeah, sort of like giving up the Sudetenland to Hitler....just give them the "disputed territory" or let them take it by force of arms and do nothing... and that'll be the end of it. Nothing like a little appeasement when dealing with a tyrant dictator. Take off the blinders. | |||
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| One of Us |
Nobody would ever trust us again. | |||
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| one of us |
Kurds know better, trust but verify... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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| One of Us |
Under Trump, the US can't be trusted now. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...Pp6?ocid=socialshare President Zelenskyy had a successful day in the-trump white house https://youtu.be/AjC9pbYjMJw?si=gxTb1XYuZMpRQ9ST Putin's Pretend Peace Offer - Why He Agreed To A US Security Guarantee https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...v2u?ocid=socialshare NATO ally issues Trump credibility warning over Russia Story by Shane Croucher • 6h • 4 min read ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| Administrator |
Mini Napoleon? A low life idiot. Just like every single one of the useless zombies who crawled on their knees to Trump! France is irrelevant as America!  | |||
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| One of Us |
Hopefully, collectively, the European leaders present are not irrelevant. Ganging up on Trump while dishing out the flattery is political correctness at its finest. We know how Trump and his sickophants despise political correctness, except for the arsh kissing of Dear Leader. Subterranean, does the sway of the other leaders take the heat off Trump regarding whatever kompromat Putin has on him? Trump can say to Putin - look bud, I'm doing the best I can for you. Meanwhile all the other leaders have to do is praise Trump, give him the credit for achieving peace, if and when, and let him have his peace prize. Heck, even Hillary Clinton said she would nominate Trump for the prize if he could bring peace in an equitable and humanitarian way. This is cringeworthy: https://youtu.be/L6dWQ2wdFME?si=yQhGb_xuu4aVmb4q A Psychiatrist Explains What European Leaders Really Think Of Trump While Pretending To Respect Him ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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One of Us |
I think that is the whole point of the original post and his reference to the Revolutionary War and France. Without the support of France in the Revolutionary War the Colonies would in all probability never have defeated the British. France supported the colonies with an estimated 12,000 soldiers and 22,000 sailors. France also supplied the Colonies with substantial financial support and military supplies (nearly 300,000 pounds of gunpowder and 30,000 muskets). Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
What "might" do they have left to release other than nukes? IIRC they couldn't win with Chechneya! Give me a home where the buffalo roam and I'll show you a house full of buffalo shit. | |||
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| One of Us |
In case anyone missed it, in the video linked above there is something especially significant. At about 1:50 the narrator talks about a "hot-mic" moment. Trump said "I really believe Putin wants to bring about peace and he wants to do it for me". The significance of that is soooo obvious. Trump was delusional about Putin's intent and the relationship when Trump said he could bring peace within 24 hours, as a campaign promise. I believe Trump really thought that was possible, and it seems that confidence was hinged on what he believed in the substance of the relationship, and his own hubris. He still harbors that delusion. https://youtu.be/L6dWQ2wdFME?s...lfm-LfjnOb00ju&t=111 ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
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| One of Us |
What is winning: Joining EU-Yes Joining NATO-No Security Guarantee on paper-Yes, but wo third party troops (only as good as the heads of state in office at the time) Russia withdrawing from mainland Ukraine-Yes Russia withdrawing from Crimea-No Russia withdrawing from mainland Ukraine, but Russia assets being used to rebuild Ukraine-probably no Russia coming back in 5 years-Better to expect and plan for it. | |||
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| One of Us |
And the French Navy. France did not commit until after the Battle of Saratoga. France also bankrupt the state to defeat Britain over here. This economic crisis and poor response caused the French Revolution. France was ultimately harmed by their support. We kind of kicked them aside, but France diplomatically overplayed their hand w the US after the war. This has been going on since 2014. We can keep Ukraine from losing from the sidelines, but Ukraine is not expelling Russia from the Crimea so a larger and bloody Western Force doing the dislodging. If Ukraine could, they would have by now. What we are doing is keeping Ukraine alive hoping Russia gets tried of being stalemated and lose their mind, or Putin is internally removed. I’m familiar supportive of that. Especially, with the contributions Western Europe and Ukraine has made. I support IS engagement. However, if Ukraine could evict Russia from all its territory, it would have. If you want it to end soon, just like the Russo-Japanese War, it is done at negotiations. I support bleeding Russia every inch. What we need to do is take the near 400 billion in frozen Russia assets and use that to support Ukraine. I’ve said this before. I’ll say it again. The framework that makes sense is: Russia withdraws from mainland Ukraine agreeing to the sovereignty of Ukraine. Ukraine and the West recognize the annexation of Crimea. Again, without a larger bloody Western military intervention to expel which would trigger WWIII, Ukraine is not expelling Russo from Crimea its own. Russia historically greatly values Crimea. To quote one of the English King Henry, “ Because my troops are all over it. Ukraine joins the EU. Ukraine is not permitted to join NATO Ukraine and Russia agree that violations of Ukrainian sovereignty will trigger economic isolation of Russia along with material support by the U.S. and signing Western Nations along w Russia. Russian assets returned to Russia w sanctions lifted over a scaling mechanism based on Russian withdrawal and good behavior. This needs to be a treaty submitted to the U.S. Senate for ratification making it legally bidding upon future governments in case of violation. If Russia would agree to the above and Ukraine balked, I would tell Ukraine, “Okay, but from this day toward you do so so US support.” If Russia refused the above I would say, “ Okay, but tomorrow I am asking Congress to approve X billion dollars of arms and munitions to Ukraine in cooperation with our Western Allies. We are going to use your assets w are holding to pay for it.” | |||
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| One of Us |
shamely that one is already in place. | |||
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| Administrator |
NitanHitler does! HE OWNS YOU! | |||
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| One of Us |
do you think your congress will sign this time while they did not agree on the minsk one? | |||
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| One of Us |
I believe the Senate would ratify if a U.S. President or designated person signed. I do. It takes a President selling it. | |||
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| One of Us |
As Medved says, Russia, the US and the UK have signed a piece of paper guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty before. The US, and to a lesser extent western Europe have restricted the Ukrainian use of ranged western weapons. Taking those restrictions off and supplying longer ranged equipment is a pretty big threat to make against Vlad. Especially given the resourcefulness Ukraine has shown in breaking Vlad's stuff from a distance even without western help. | |||
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| One of Us |
The IS has never said in a ratified treaty, “If X happens, we shall do Y.” That is what it would take. Yes, treaties are only as good as the heads of state tasked with enforcing them. Czechs has a mutual defense pact, bidding, with France against Germany. Without Western help there would be no Ukraine government today. I am glad the U.S. and Western Europe has done so. Let no one be deceived, this war is happening for two reasons: 1) Putin wants to rebuild the Russian Empire. He desires to bring the cattle lost from the Cold War home. That is one reason why Ukraine is important. Ukraine played a large role in the downfall of the Communist state. Ukraine's declaration of independence in August 1991 and subsequent referendum vote in December, with overwhelming support for independence, were crucial factors in the final collapse of the Soviet Union. Ukraine, was the second most populous and economically significant republic. And 2) Ukraine sought to join, to become part of Western Europe. If Poland had not been a NATO, Article V members, a treaty ratified by the Senate, Putin would have struck against Poland which has been a staging ground for Western material support. | |||
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| One of Us |
and alas it is coming that way ... don t you notice the bombings done by russia on civilians during the meetings in DC? | |||
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| One of Us |
your question is more who is winning? and there is only one: putin. | |||
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| One of Us |
My position is the above results would be a Ukrainian win today. | |||
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| One of Us |
they are 4 oblats they are not giving back and the rest will prove that within 5 years putin will go back to ukraine they do not consider a foreign country but part of the empire the whole ... but you can have your opinion that is a win for ukraine if the win means the peace ... | |||
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| One of Us |
There is no peace. There is security. I agree Putin tries to come back in 5 years. As long as Putin holds power, his aims do not change. We are not putting troops in Ukraine. We are not going to do regime change in Moscow. Ukraine is not expelling Russia from Crimea with a massive Western Force. That is not going to happen. That may not work either. | |||
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| One of Us |
well i wish you the but seems earlier someone stated that usa will not be trusted anymore and we can all agree on that ... there will no security if there is no peace but again it might for you to grasp what your supreme leader has done recently and you have to understand that you cannot afford two wars: the support of israel and the lack of support of ukraine ... | |||
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| One of Us |
They did in the context of the USA abandoning Ukraine to be devoured. Again, treaties are only as good as the heads of state in the moment of enforcement. In the U.S. a ratified treaty becomes law. There is not going to be regime change in Russia be direct U.S. military intervention. You can either have what we got now. If you are advocating that. That is your choice. Or we can have a path (possibly) to a more secure Ukraine and an end to this conflict. I have said the frame work of what I support. Putin being expelled from Crimea and all of Ukraine mainland is not happening wo major foreign troop deployments. Assuming, they would work. That is WWIII. A Great Powers conflict with China, Russia, Iran, and India at least. We can keep doing what we are doing for 10-20 years keeping Ukraine from losing and see what happens. Ukraine is not Afghanistan. It has major importance in the mind of Putin. I would have debt fighter jets to Ukraine much sooner. Whatever the learning churn was, the longer waiting was going to make it. The bottom line is Putin’s war goal is to subjugate Ukraine. If something can be reached that prevents that goal from being real, the YS needs to advocate for it. I would abandon Ukraine in a heartbeat if they walked away from a deal I outlined assuming Russia agreed. I would twist Russia and bleed them for a decade if Russia said no. | |||
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