quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Russia thought it would be over in a couple of weeks, yet here we are 3 years later.

Saeed will be along shortly to explain how Russia has been kicking everyone’s arse.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
In some thread or another, I saw Lane post that Ukraine has no chance. I believe he is wrong...if we continue to support them.

I'd like to ask Lane what he thinks of all the world's experts who said the Americans had no chance to win in 1776.

Such a defeatist attitude is contrary to what Texans are supposed to be about. How can a Texan of all people want to give up?

The French didn't abandon us in the American revolution. We shouldn't abandon Ukraine in its own fight for freedom.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
In some thread or another, I saw Lane post that Ukraine has no chance. I believe he is wrong...if we continue to support them.

I'd like to ask Lane what he thinks of all the world's experts who said the Americans had no chance to win in 1776.

Such a defeatist attitude is contrary to what Texans are supposed to be about. How can a Texan of all people want to give up?

The French didn't abandon us in the American revolution. We shouldn't abandon Ukraine in its own fight for freedom.

Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might.

If Zelensky is willing to give up some tracts of disputed territory to Russia the war will come to an abrupt end and from the gist of the recent meeting held at the WH, it seems to be heading in that direction; the mere fact that Zelensky was more appropriately dressed for the occasion suggests his arrogance has been subdued.

We shall see once the scheduled tripartite meeting bears fruit.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now.

Nobody would ever trust us again.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
In some thread or another, I saw Lane post that Ukraine has no chance. I believe he is wrong...if we continue to support them.

I'd like to ask Lane what he thinks of all the world's experts who said the Americans had no chance to win in 1776.

Such a defeatist attitude is contrary to what Texans are supposed to be about. How can a Texan of all people want to give up?

The French didn't abandon us in the American revolution. We shouldn't abandon Ukraine in its own fight for freedom.

Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might.

If Zelensky is willing to give up some tracts of disputed territory to Russia the war will come to an abrupt end and from the gist of the recent meeting held at the WH, it seems to be heading in that direction; the mere fact that Zelensky was more appropriately dressed for the occasion suggests his arrogance has been subdued.

We shall see once the scheduled tripartite meeting bears fruit.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might.

I think that is the whole point of the original post and his reference to the Revolutionary War and France. Without the support of France in the Revolutionary War the Colonies would in all probability never have defeated the British. France supported the colonies with an estimated 12,000 soldiers and 22,000 sailors. France also supplied the Colonies with substantial financial support and military supplies (nearly 300,000 pounds of gunpowder and 30,000 muskets).

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now.

Nobody would ever trust us again.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now.

Nobody would ever trust us again.

shamely that one is already in place.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

Ukraine on its own cannot win against Russia and this war has only been prolonged thanks to the military and financial backing from the USA and the EU which put the stoppers on Russia from releasing its might.

I think that is the whole point of the original post and his reference to the Revolutionary War and France. Without the support of France in the Revolutionary War the Colonies would in all probability never have defeated the British. France supported the colonies with an estimated 12,000 soldiers and 22,000 sailors. France also supplied the Colonies with substantial financial support and military supplies (nearly 300,000 pounds of gunpowder and 30,000 muskets).

And the French Navy.

France did not commit until after the Battle of Saratoga. France also bankrupt the state to defeat Britain over here. This economic crisis and port response caused the French Revolution. France was ultimately harmed by their support. We kind of kicked them aside, but France diplomatically overplayed their hand w the US after the war.

This has been going on since 2014. We can keep Ukraine from losing from the sidelines, but Ukraine is not expelling Russia from the Crimea so a larger and bloody Western Force doing the dislodging. If Ukraine could, they would have by now.

What we are doing is keeping Ukraine alive hoping Russia gets tried of being stalemated and lose their mind, or Putin is internally removed.

I’m familiar supportive of that. Especially, with the contributions Western Europe and Ukraine has made. I support IS engagement.

However, if Ukraine could evict Russia from all its territory, it would have. If you want it to end soon, just like the Russo-Japanese War, it is done at negotiations.

I support bleeding Russia every inch.

What we need to do is take the near 400 billion in frozen Russia assets and use that to support Ukraine.

I’ve said this before. I’ll say it again. The framework that makes sense is:

Russia withdraws from mainland Ukraine agreeing to the sovereignty of Ukraine.

Ukraine and the West recognize the annexation of Crimea. Again, without a larger bloody Western military intervention to expel which would trigger WWIII, Ukraine is not expelling Russo from Crimea its own. Russia historically greatly values Crimea. To quote one of the English King Henry, “ Because my troops are all over it.

Ukraine joins the EU.

Ukraine is not permitted to join NATO


Ukraine and Russia agree that violations of Ukrainian sovereignty will trigger economic isolation of Russia along with material support by the U.S. and signing Western Nations along w Russia.

Russian assets returned to Russia w sanctions lifted over a scaling mechanism based on Russian withdrawal and good behavior.

This needs to be a treaty submitted to the U.S. Senate for ratification making it legally bidding upon future governments in case of violation.

If Russia would agree to the above and Ukraine balked, I would tell Ukraine, “Okay, but from this day toward you do so so US support.”

If Russia refused the above I would say, “ Okay, but tomorrow I am asking Congress to approve X billion dollars of arms and munitions to Ukraine in cooperation with our Western Allies. We are going to use your assets w are holding to pay for it.”

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It would be a travesty for the US to support Ukraine the way we have for the last few years only to capitulate now.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What is winning:

Joining EU-Yes
Joining NATO-No
Security Guarantee on paper-Yes, but wo third party troops (only as good as the heads of state in office at the time)
Russia withdrawing from mainland Ukraine-Yes
Russia withdrawing from Crimea-No
Russia withdrawing from mainland Ukraine, but Russia assets being used to rebuild Ukraine-probably no
Russia coming back in 5 years-Better to expect and plan for it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
My position is the above results would be a Ukrainian win today.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
There is no peace.

There is security.

I agree Putin tries to come back in 5 years.

As long as Putin holds power, his aims do not change.

We are not putting troops in Ukraine. We are not going to do regime change in Moscow.

Ukraine is not expelling Russia from Crimea with a massive Western Force. That is not going to happen. That may not work either.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
They did in the context of the USA abandoning Ukraine to be devoured.

Again, treaties are only as good as the heads of state in the moment of enforcement. In the U.S. a ratified treaty becomes law.

There is not going to be regime change in Russia be direct U.S. military intervention.

You can either have what we got now. If you are advocating that. That is your choice.

Or we can have a path (possibly) to a more secure Ukraine and an end to this conflict.

I have said the frame work of what I support.

Putin being expelled from Crimea and all of Ukraine mainland is not happening wo major foreign troop deployments. Assuming, they would work. That is WWIII. A Great Powers conflict with China, Russia, Iran, and India at least.

We can keep doing what we are doing for 10-20 years keeping Ukraine from losing and see what happens.

Ukraine is not Afghanistan. It has major importance in the mind of Putin.

I would have debt fighter jets to Ukraine much sooner. Whatever the learning churn was, the longer waiting was going to make it.

The bottom line is Putin’s war goal is to subjugate Ukraine. If something can be reached that prevents that goal from being real, the YS needs to advocate for it.

I would abandon Ukraine in a heartbeat if they walked away from a deal I outlined assuming Russia agreed. I would twist Russia and bleed them for a decade if Russia said no.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You just did.

Without an overwhelming foreign force that expels Russia, Russia only leaves through a negotiated settlement.

Crimea is more important. Russia’s hold on it is stronger and longer. The U.S. and West have never recognized the annexation.

There is no destroying Russia. We can bleed them for a decade or two maybe.

Ukraine was largely litigated in our last election. Too few cared, no one in the U.S. is going to go along w US Citizens dying in Ukraine.

It is reach a negotiated settlement or keep hoping Ukraine can blunt and bled Russia.

My fear is the longer this goes on Putin will gamble on attacking an Article V NATO member, then I do not know what happens.

Oh yes, my frame work recognizes the Annexation of Crimea by the U.S., West, and Ukraine. They have had de facto control for over 10 years. Do you want Russia out of mainland Ukraine?

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You just did.

Without an overwhelming foreign force that expels Russia, Russia only leaves through a negotiated settlement.

Crimea is more important. Russia’s hold on it is stronger and longer. The U.S. and West have never recognized the annexation.

There is no destroying Russia. We can bleed them for a decade or two maybe.

Ukraine was largely litigated in our last election. Too few cared, no one in the U.S. is going to go along w US Citizens dying in Ukraine.

It is reach a negotiated settlement or keep hoping Ukraine can blunt and bled Russia.

My fear is the longer this goes on Putin will gamble on attacking an Article V NATO member, then I do not know what happens.

Oh yes, my frame work recognizes the Annexation of Crimea by the U.S., West, and Ukraine. They have had de facto control for over 10 years. Do you want Russia out of mainland Ukraine?

they will not leave the lands (oblasts) they are already in ... first because occupying the land that is part of russia and second for obvious reasons related to the presense of natural gas and rare earth lands presents there on big quantity. you do realize that putin wants great empire back and that is including mainland ukraine ...

and now for crimea that is another question that i cannot answer for ukraine.