Thatta boy Lane, keep telling us how wonderful you are. As if we do not hear several times a week.

You are amazing, just ask you.

The thing is, the subject has nothing to do with you. This is a subject for women to decide, not your old male ass.

quote:

This is a subject for women to decide

at every stage from zygote -then conceptus (pre embryo), morula, blastocyst, then embryo, then fetus, then child-
there is unique human DNA-
NOT only the mother's (egg donor's ) DNA, but also the father's (sperm donor's ) DNA

why is the woman (mother) the sole arbiter in the womb?

if, that woman (mother) IS the sole arbiter -

shall we them let them be the sole arbiter of that life and death until "maturity" of that unique Human DNA ?

If not -
why are they the sole arbiter in the womb

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

This is a subject for women to decide

at every stage from zygote -then conceptus (pre embryo), morula, blastocyst, then embryo, then fetus, then child-
there is unique human DNA-
NOT only the mother's (egg donor's ) DNA, but also the father's (sperm donor's ) DNA

why is the woman (mother) the sole arbiter in the womb?

if, that woman (mother) IS the sole arbiter -

shall we them let them be the sole arbiter of that life and death until "maturity" of that unique Human DNA ?

If not -
why are they the sole arbiter in the womb

Because no better or more just answer exists. It is her body, her womb and none of your business.

Whose body is the fetus? Who speaks for the fetus?

The women carrying it.

It is attached, growing from, and feeding off the woman.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The women carrying it.

It is attached, growing from, and feeding off the woman.

So right now, at this red hot moment, its the woman carrying the fetus (baby) because its growing from and feeding off the woman?

I dont know of any one or two year-olds that can survive with " feeding from" someone......so who gets to decide if they live?

And what's the difference?

Attachment?

If someone kills a pregnant woman is it a double homicide????
Is it a life or not?

JTEX, I try to respond to everyone. However, answered that when Dr. Easter tried that shell game.

Birth confers rights. A state prior to Dobbs could confer rights as early as 15 weeks.

Since the gestation periods of a horse and a human are different, I suppose we should ask Dr. Butler this:

How common is it for a woman not to know she's pregnant for sixty days after conception? I've heard of cases where the woman didn't know she was pregnant up until birth.

I think that up to the point of viability, a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy within a reasonable period of time of learning she's pregnant.

After viability, abortion should be allowed only for the health of the mother.

I find abortion to be a difficult issue, so am susceptible to being convinced I'm wrong on any part of the above.

Dr . Butler is on record here if patients not knowing they are pregnant at 6weeks.

Despite the men here claim no way a woman would not know at 6 weeks; women I’m my life day the opposite.

I believe women on that sub issue.

TEX, I try to respond to everyone. However, answered that when Dr. Easter tried that shell game.

Birth confers rights. A state prior to Dobbs could confer rights as early as 15 weeks.

I agree with you Rolland. As you know, Plan Parenthood allowed banning abortion at viability.

The AMA endorsed a 15 w relish period of viability.

KY banned abortions at 21 weeks except life of mother under Plan Parenthood v Casey.

I am sure Dr. Easter will say any time period the fetus is living it is viable. Remember his comparison to early week horse fetuses that would try to not be removed from horses.

I submit women should have more agency on birth than horses.

quote:

Birth confers rights.

Bad law, imho, it needs to be changed.

I didn't see a response to my double homicide question?

.

Well, according to the current Supreme Court ruling a state can agree with you.

That is bad policy for all the reasons we have highlighted.

Women turned away at hospitals bleeding fro dead fetuses, children being forced to give birth, rape victims being forced to give
birth, politicians and not doctors deciding what is viable or life threatening, and religious nuts trying to tell us all how to live.

Not to mention the Dobbs case sets the stage to de-incorporate rights you like.

I shall answer. Fetal homicide exists because the it assumes the woman who has also been killed did not want their to be child taken from them. Again, the issue is agency. The killer has no right to decide for the mother and terminate the life that would be a human.

quote:

The killer has no right to decide for the mother and terminate the life that would be a human.

However, in your view,
the Mother (or host)
may be the killer win no repercussions?

In general yes. Again, it is about agency.

The woman has no agency in fetal homicide over her body and the fetus.

Also, the woman is being killed.

In Abortion, the woman is exercising agency.

Also, fetal homicide is still not homicide of a person.

It must be nice to hide behind the legalese, hub? Sanitize the whole topic. Do you have children?

What is nice is to understand the principle of Agency. A legal term.

Legal terms govern our interactions.

If you cannot see the difference in someone shooting a pregnant person killing the fetus she is carrying and a pregnant person prior to viability saying I choose, I cannot help someone so ignorant.

There will come a time when it won’t matter.

Sometime ago a friend came over with his teenage son to shoot.

His son had a friend with him same age.

As we got ready to shoot, the friend was busy on his phone.

I said "please put your phone away, We are shooting now"

"Hang on. I am updating my Fasebook page!"

"If you don't put that phone down right now, I will throw it down the tunnel and shoot it!"

His friend said "PUT is down. He WILL shoot!"

He did put it away, and did not attempt to use it until we had finished.

He kept giving me funny looks!

Well done sir!

quote:

Also, fetal homicide is still not homicide of a person.

Homicide:
human killing a human.

person is legality

human ia reality

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
It must be nice to hide behind the legalese, hub? Sanitize the whole topic. Do you have children?

Exactly my point!

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Also, fetal homicide is still not homicide of a person.

Homicide:
human killing a human.

person is legality

human ia reality

The real world!

Not the screwed up world of lawyers!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
It must be nice to hide behind the legalese, hub? Sanitize the whole topic. Do you have children?

Exactly my point!

If he had kids which he clearly does not he would look at things in a new light. When I saw my daughter's face on the ultrasound I was looking at a human I helped create through my and my wife's AGENCY. I understood then and understand now I was legally and morally responsible for that shared act of creation. The pro abortion/pro choice people are stuck on the "I" in the equation rather than the "other" in the equation. If a woman does not want to become pregnant then do not pursue activities which could result in pregnancy. An unwanted pregnancy comes with consequences to be borne by the mother and father. I make exception for rape and in est which are events of non consent and which are crimes against nature, respectively. Clearly, Heym is not a parent.

By your logic we should ban amputations because people kill people with knives.

Oh, and many people with kids support a right to abortion accesses as recent elections and polls show.

Again, the fact you hate legal analysis and rational is not my problem.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Stop asking the question the way you want it asked.

I believe it is wrong to kill viable fetuses. Beyond 60 days with the exceptions I mentioned…it should be the law.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. While I am Christian…I was also Christian when I was ignorant and pro-choice. I became enlightened and saw how wrong I was.

You are pretty fucking far from "enlightened."

From the man who cannot speak with out the F-bomb.

I think I will trust my opinion on “enlightened” over yours counselor.

Trust this asshat:

Instead of "Facebook and Kids", this thread should be titled, "Abortion, yes or no?"

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Instead of "Facebook and Kids", this thread should be titled, "Abortion, yes or no?"

Worst topic ever.

Nobody here wants to see Americans fail and yet this debate of daughters rights vs. killing babies generates the most animosity.

Terrible.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
By your logic we should ban amputations because people kill people with knives.

Oh, and many people with kids support a right to abortion accesses as recent elections and polls show.

Again, the fact you hate legal analysis and rational is not my problem.

None of the above. You don't have kids so you cannot speak as authentically as a parent can about this issue.

I would say the majority suspect before 60 days. The usual 1st OB appointment I saw when I was doing OB was 12-16 weeks.

As to actually having a positive test and documentation most were right around the 2 month mark.

The ones that don’t know until delivery or close to it are usually morbidly obese and have a history of very irregular menses and usually are not very well educated. They can usually recite symptoms of pregnancy, but don’t realize that’s actually why they feel like they do.

But I would say it’s not very rare that a woman does not know until 20-24 weeks.

It’s a continuum of how aware folks are.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Since the gestation periods of a horse and a human are different, I suppose we should ask Dr. Butler this:

How common is it for a woman not to know she's pregnant for sixty days after conception? I've heard of cases where the woman didn't know she was pregnant up until birth.

I think that up to the point of viability, a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy within a reasonable period of time of learning she's pregnant.

After viability, abortion should be allowed only for the health of the mother.

I find abortion to be a difficult issue, so am susceptible to being convinced I'm wrong on any part of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What is nice is to understand the principle of Agency. A legal term.

Legal terms govern our interactions.

If you cannot see the difference in someone shooting a pregnant person killing the fetus she is carrying and a pregnant person prior to viability saying I choose, I cannot help someone so ignorant.

Ok, so if agency is so meaningful, in a related area, how is it that with well established agency (parental authority for minors) we are seeing the legal system twisting this so that schools get to ignore it for purposes of gender transition?

It seems that the legal system is full of contradictions as well.

If abortion is legal, under agency, why isn’t killing an unborn child treated as a property crime against the mother instead of a separate charge of killing a person? The fetus is treated under law as an object that the mother can dispose of as she wishes (see the findings re IVF babies).

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
What is nice is to understand the principle of Agency. A legal term.

Legal terms govern our interactions.

If you cannot see the difference in someone shooting a pregnant person killing the fetus she is carrying and a pregnant person prior to viability saying I choose, I cannot help someone so ignorant.

Ok, so if agency is so meaningful, in a related area, how is it that with well established agency (parental authority for minors) we are seeing the legal system twisting this so that schools get to ignore it for purposes of gender transition?

It seems that the legal system is full of contradictions as well.

If abortion is legal, under agency, why isn’t killing an unborn child treated as a property crime against the mother instead of a separate charge of killing a person? The fetus is treated under law as an object that the mother can dispose of as she wishes (see the findings re IVF babies).

This is something I have a hard time understanding......

This is saying that any female....educated, uneducated....any female....gets to say whether what they are carrying is a human life or not...

What happened to "follow the science"?????

She nice there is nothing new to respond to on the abortion sun issue.

I will address an observation concerning my original post.

I will say today the pattern held. What is obvious as a snake lying in a chicken box is the compulsion to obtain notoriety, attention, or as many as to the statement of violence as possible.

The Louisville Mass Murder live steamed his killings. The Buffalo killer go pro filmed his killings.

The use of social media to broadcast the threat have been present in all my cases I’d school threats.

I am at a loss to articulate a way to combat this need to broadcast this.

quote:

None of the above. You don't have kids so you cannot speak as authentically as a parent can about this issue.

The whole conversation is based on WHETHER to have a kid. Any adult's opinion is as good as anyone else's.

The fact you have kids is only likely to bias you in favor of others making the choice you made.

quote:

If abortion is legal, under agency, why isn’t killing an unborn child treated as a property crime against the mother instead of a separate charge of killing a person?

The short answer is that the legislature made killing a fetus a separate crime.

There is no natural law that compels that legislation.

quote:

There is no natural law that compels that legislation.

Perhaps:
Thou Shall Not Kill

(and yes, I have read the Aristotle, et al, discussions)

My SWAG is that we have been publicly adoring the popular and equating popularity with worth in public culture ever since the 50’s.

Add in the insistance that we are all equal (not equal just in the eyes of the law) and the continual popular drumbeat that if you want it badly enough and work hard enough, you can do anything.

Then add the modern instant gratification society along with constant connection and we have an unholy mess for those who have issues dealing with adversity.

This increased suicides, increased drug abuse, and… increased mass violence.

I don’t think the hyper real appearing movies and games help, either.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
She nice there is nothing new to respond to on the abortion sun issue.

I will address an observation concerning my original post.

I will say today the pattern held. What is obvious as a snake lying in a chicken box is the compulsion to obtain notoriety, attention, or as many as to the statement of violence as possible.

The Louisville Mass Murder live steamed his killings. The Buffalo killer go pro filmed his killings.

The use of social media to broadcast the threat have been present in all my cases I’d school threats.

I am at a loss to articulate a way to combat this need to broadcast this.

I do not believe it is the complex of equal, but the complex that must make an ultimate statement. In Columbine, it appears more a statement of perceived power.

Social Media allows broadcasting the event. The killer is just not acting out in this limited group, or community, but in real time across the state. They are expanding the perceived impact of the act.

Social media and the unregulated internet was the curse for children.

I strongly agree.

I give the, “ Don’t give your kid a phone with internet lecture daily.”

I did not get a smart phone until I started at my first firm. I did not want it, but they made me take it.

There is nothing a minor needs that a smart phone provides.

I look at these child suicides.

The experts tell me social media is integral part of the child’s life, but it slows the tormenters unlimited, unrelenting pressure.

My gut reaction is. Okay, turn it off and go play football. Preferably hitting the bullies.

That is not how these kids have now been raised.

Parents give toddlers tablets to baby set them.