quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

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A law that prevents the transfer of external box magazine feed, button release, semi automatic rifles to 18-20 year olds would have prevented this mass murder.

I take issue with this statement. More likely the killers would have used shotguns or other firearms to carry out their massacres.

Or are you suggesting the urge to kill came from an inanimate object, like an evil demon-possessed AR?

A) They are not shotguns. One can buy a shotgun over the counter (pump) for 400 bucks. They are using the more expensive rifle described above. Despite what some here have stated, no you can not kill as many as fast and efficient w a plugged or unplugged 4-8 round shotgun as you can the above described rifle.

B) The Uvalde shooter purchased the above described rifle bc it was the best tool for the job.

Now, I fully admit, such a restriction is going to have a hard time at the S. Ct. given the New York case. Unless, the opportunity gives the opposition another bite at the apple.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Aren't we talking about what if we ban ARs? A hypothetical question.

Your answer seems to be, "Then mass murder incidents will decrease."

Show me how that works. The evil ARs do not drive people to murder. Some mass murderers use handguns (e.g., VA Tech). More recently, automobiles and a ball bat have been used.

If anything becomes popular with killers, let's ban it.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbithabit:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

A law that prevents the transfer of external box magazine feed, button release, semi automatic rifles to 18-20 year olds would have prevented this mass murder.

I take issue with this statement. More likely the killers would have used shotguns or other firearms to carry out their massacres.

Or are you suggesting the urge to kill came from an inanimate object, like an evil demon-possessed AR?

A) They are not shotguns. One can buy a shotgun over the counter (pump) for 400 bucks. They are using the more expensive rifle described above. Despite what some here have stated, no you can not kill as many as fast and efficient w a plugged or unplugged 4-8 round shotgun as you can the above described rifle.

B) The Uvalde shooter purchased the above described rifle bc it was the best tool for the job.

Now, I fully admit, such a restriction is going to have a hard time at the S. Ct. given the New York case. Unless, the opportunity gives the opposition another bite at the apple.

When you have an hour to kill people, a shotgun would be just as deadly than a rifle. We need to ask a professional what they would use to clear a house, rifle, shotgun or pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Banning those guns will stop nothing. Those guns will be gone and they will start on the next.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Aren't we talking about what if we ban ARs? A hypothetical question.

Your answer seems to be, "Then mass murder incidents will decrease."

Show me how that works. The evil ARs do not drive people to murder. Some mass murderers use handguns (e.g., VA Tech). More recently, automobiles and a ball bat have been used.

If anything becomes popular with killers, let's ban it.

That’s not what is being said at all. A complete mischaracterization.

What is being said is let’s focus on the facts. Fact, mass shootings have become a regular occurrence. Fact, most of the shooters are using AR-style rifles and high-capacity semiautomatic pistols. Fact, a high number of mass shooters are young males. Given the facts, if we are serious about trying to reduce the number of mass shootings shouldn’t we increase the scrutiny associated with securing the weapons most commonly used and increase the age for purchasing such weapons. Alternatively we can sit around with our thumbs up our ass and watch the facts above repeat themselves . . . until it is your wife, mother, father, son, daughter or grandchild.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:
And neither of us is advocating for an out right ban nor return of the Assault Weapons ban which I do not support.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

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Originally posted by LHeym500:
And neither of us is advocating for an out right ban nor return of the Assault Weapons ban which I do not support.

This wasn't clear to me. Thank you for the clarification.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

You're stringing facts together and assuming a causal relationship. If we do this, then that. How do you know that these sociopaths and suicidal narcissists won't turn to shotguns?

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by ledvm:
Banning those guns will stop nothing. Those guns will be gone and they will start on the next.

. . . complete speculation.

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Originally posted by crbutler:


If you want an example of switching, look at England. They banned guns, and yet they still have gun deaths, and have an accelerating violent crime rate.

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Originally posted by rabbithabit:

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by ledvm:
Banning those guns will stop nothing. Those guns will be gone and they will start on the next.

. . . complete speculation.

Isn't that what happened in England? Give up one type, then the next and then all of them.

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Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Banning those guns will stop nothing. Those guns will be gone and they will start on the next.

. . . complete speculation.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

You're stringing facts together and assuming a causal relationship. If we do this, then that. How do you know that these sociopaths and suicidal narcissists won't turn to shotguns?

I am not assuming anything. I am saying it is a fact that many mass shooters are young men and it is a fact that most mass shooters use AR-style rifles and high-capacity semiautomatic pistols. We have two choices, address the facts we know in order to attempt to decrease the occurrence of such events or ignore the facts and do nothing hoping things miraculously improve serendipitously. Pursuing one course has the potential to reduce such events by changing the underlying facts. Pursuing the other course is doing the same thing we are doing today and expecting a different result. How do I know that these sociopaths and suicidal narcissists won't turn to shotguns, I don’t . . . just like you don’t know that they will. That’s why we focus on the facts and trying to change the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
One thing that is not speculation, the increase in mass shooting has coincided with the increased access to semi-autos.

The increase in mass shooting has coincided with the increased use of electric vehicles. Both are true statements. We also know the rifle did not coerce them into using it. There is no real evidence of a causal relationship. Certainly, it is a good tool for what they desire…but there are many others.

It is the sociopathic disease that creates killers not AR—15s.

I never suggested banning anything but increasing the difficulty in obtaining AR platforms and semi-auto pistols seems logical to me.

no way someone is going to shoot 413 people in under an hour the way the Vegas shooter did without lots of firepower, that is a fact.

We see that class 3 guns are very rarely used in crimes due to the increased vetting required for obtaining those guns. A more stringent process for obtaining the chosen weapon for mass shootings makes sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
413 were not killed

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Of course you could. An 8 shot pump or semi in a crowd of people. No 4 buckshot, or BB's. Multiple hits with every shot, reloaded before you ever run and empty mag. There is a reason trenchguns were issued, and a major factor in defending and attacking company sized numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Then the relationship between rain and the grass growing must be casual as well.

That^^^is a true statement and can be proven. The AR hypothesis is just that…a hypothesis. And, it is a hypothesis with logical reason to be non-causal.

You can't kill 413 people in an hour using a shotgun.....

They may be sociopaths but sociopaths who can easily access AR-15's have been shown to be a problem.

Make them harder to obtain and you will prevent many of these shootings.

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Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Of course you could. An 8 shot pump or semi in a crowd of people. No 4 buckshot, or BB's. Multiple hits with every shot, reloaded before you ever run and empty mag. There is a reason trenchguns were issued, and a major factor in defending and attacking company sized numbers.

There is a reason mass shooters choose semi-autos.

There is also a reason trenchguns are not standard issue but a semiauto rifle is.

A semi-auto is far more effective.

Not in a trench. But I digress.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Of course you could. An 8 shot pump or semi in a crowd of people. No 4 buckshot, or BB's. Multiple hits with every shot, reloaded before you ever run and empty mag. There is a reason trenchguns were issued, and a major factor in defending and attacking company sized numbers.

There is a reason mass shooters choose semi-autos.

There is also a reason trenchguns are not standard issue but a semiauto rifle is.

A semi-auto is far more effective.

Not in a trench. But I digress.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Of course you could. An 8 shot pump or semi in a crowd of people. No 4 buckshot, or BB's. Multiple hits with every shot, reloaded before you ever run and empty mag. There is a reason trenchguns were issued, and a major factor in defending and attacking company sized numbers.

There is a reason mass shooters choose semi-autos.

There is also a reason trenchguns are not standard issue but a semiauto rifle is.

A semi-auto is far more effective.

Not in a trench. But I digress.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Of course you could. An 8 shot pump or semi in a crowd of people. No 4 buckshot, or BB's. Multiple hits with every shot, reloaded before you ever run and empty mag. There is a reason trenchguns were issued, and a major factor in defending and attacking company sized numbers.

There is a reason mass shooters choose semi-autos.

There is also a reason trenchguns are not standard issue but a semiauto rifle is.

A semi-auto is far more effective.

Not in a trench. But I digress.

I would rather have a Thompson or BAR.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Banning those guns will stop nothing. Those guns will be gone and they will start on the next.

. . . complete speculation.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

You're stringing facts together and assuming a causal relationship. If we do this, then that. How do you know that these sociopaths and suicidal narcissists won't turn to shotguns?

I am not assuming anything. I am saying it is a fact that many mass shooters are young men and it is a fact that most mass shooters use AR-style rifles and high-capacity semiautomatic pistols. We have two choices, address the facts we know in order to attempt to decrease the occurrence of such events or ignore the facts and do nothing hoping things miraculously improve serendipitously. Pursuing one course has the potential to reduce such events by changing the underlying facts. Pursuing the other course is doing the same thing we are doing today and expecting a different result. How do I know that these sociopaths and suicidal narcissists won't turn to shotguns, I don’t . . . just like you don’t know that they will. That’s why we focus on the facts and trying to change the facts.

This would be a reasonable hypothesis to test in a company setting where a decision can be reversed as easy as set into motion. Our government is NOT that place. Once lost…freedoms rarely come back.

Since being a sociopath IS the underlying cause and an AR IS just a tool…it is logical to believe that the sociopath will adapt to other tools to fulfill its inner desires.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Serbia recently had two within a couple of weeks and their response has been to hugely restrict ownership.

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Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Serbia recently had two within a couple of weeks and their response has been to hugely restrict ownership.

They have a different history, this shouldn't be much of a surprise...