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| One of Us |
Only hits count, but the BAR or Thompson fir me. The KSP stopped issuing shotguns when AR became the thing. The BAR rate of fire (I have shot one from 1920s) is slow and the weight makes it a non issue. There is a reason for that. The weight of fire and weight allowed one to control a BAR. Mon guys seemed to do just fine with Thompsons. Studies list Vietnam and WWII cut against only hits count. Some times Dr young position and keeping heads down count. I have never been to War, but regular line troops and a lot of gangsters ( Clyde Barrows favorite) ran BARs just fine. Again, I will take a shotgun over a handgun, but I would never take a shotgun when I could have a Semi or Select fire rifle. There is a resin a Shotgun has never been a main line weapon once rifling and the mini ball. That is if you count buck and ball in a smooth bore musket a shotgun. I do not. | |||
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Military use is not about killing. It’s about position, control, and dominating the opposition. Killing is often a part of that, but like self defense, the objective isn’t killing itself. A BAR is not a very effective squad level automatic. The British Bren, and the German MG 34/42 were much superior, and once we had studied the results of WWII, we got rid of it. The Thompson was a SMG, and effective at further distances than a shotgun, but make no mistake, a shotgun at close quarters with a very target rich environment is more effective than a SMG. It’s just in a military situation, the SMG has wider application than a shotgun. A pump shotgun is slow to reload compared to a box fed gun, but if you are facing situation where it will be done before you run out of ammo, that’s a nonissue. Get a box fed or belt fed semiautomatic shotgun that is reliable and close to the same size footprint and the SMG is not good. There is a reason that US troops still use a shotgun when on a dedicated house clearing mission. You have LE contacts. Go try a room clearing drill with a BAR, a SMG, and a shotgun. Depending on the specifics, a SMG or Shotgun will win. The assault rifle was a compromise. That’s what the AR is. It gives up the effectiveness at range of the full power cartridge for the capability of intermediate range suppression of the auto rifle, and the close combat speed and reload ability of the SMG. In the military, it’s the jack of all trades. For general issue, use a weapon with more capability for all roles. A shotgun is effectively a gun with a 9 or so round burst with no recoil effect (it’s one shot) and a 35 yard or so effective range with a 10-15 second reload time. The shotgun really has no penetration of cover. A submachine gun is 75-100 yard range with 3-5 round bursts and minimal recoil effect and 2 or so second reloads. It has little penetration. An m16 is 400 yards, 3-4 round burst with modest recoil effect and 2-3 second reloads. It has some penetration. A BAR is 800 yards effective range with really a 2 round burst (climbing) and significant recoil effect and 5 or so second reloads. It also gets significant penetration. You are choosing which most closely meets your profile for effectiveness. The squad automatic is great at suppressing folks at range. Not as good as a machine gun, but good and it’s portable. | |||
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I'll tell you what heym. Get situated in a run and gun firefight, either into or away from fire. Shooting on the move with your BAR. Get back to me how you turn out .... dumbass. | |||
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THAT is what a 3 position MIL spec AR is: an Assault rifle. NOT a typical AR as generally purchased by the public at large a semi auto rifle. and largely by the end of the 90's most LEO "SWAT" squads were deleting shotguns on entry teams in favor of PDW's (MP 5's in particular) DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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| One of Us |
You can get away with that in a swat situation. You have armored vehicles to carry what you need for each situation. Not the same for the military. I was thinking back and chuckling about heyms "keeping thier heads down counts too" We loved it when the AK's were held out at arms length rattling shots off that were not even close. We would head shoot every one of them, while they did that. He tries to talk smart from a book, or a war of generations ago, and zero real knowledge. | |||
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Isn’t a large part of why LE got away from the shotgun also due to the loss of control where the pellets go? Yes, highly trained shotgun shooters know where the pattern is, but the incidence of collateral damage with a shotgun is higher than a pistol or a SMG in single shot mode. Kind of the opposite of the desired effect of a terrorist type. | |||
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You can chuckle if you wish. The concept was proven in Vietnam. I will te3ll you what BACK40, Funny how all these untrained, undisciplined young people can keep at bay LE and kill multiplies with external box magazine fed, button detachable box magazine, semi auto center fire rifles. I tell you again, funny how normal line shoulders ran BARs. Tell you what, funny how 30 gunners shot the hell out of Law Enforcement with automatic rifles versus shotguns and recovers. The first criminal and law enforcement arms race. That is a fact. Fact, the BAR was designed to be shot Moving, standing up, and walking. You can keep the shotgun. Give me the above. A semi or select fire, external box magazine, button release magazine rifle. Just like every military main line battle weapon. I can only speak to the KSP. The shotgun went away as the AR was phased in as a general trooper weapon, because it gave more than a shotgun could. KSP went to slug only before ARs were general issue. I can ask Monday if they are select fire. Trying a case Tuesday where a gun wilder was shot by the Trooper twice in the chest with his issue AR. What is the quote, “50,000 rounds fired in Vietnam to kill one combatant.” Inside the Crosshairs gives a ratio of 25,000 rounds fired to 1 killed. Either way, fire rates that a shotgun could not and does not give. | |||
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Heym and I have seen all the Rambo movies several times as well as quite a few of the Schwarzenegger movies where the BAR was demonstrated to be very effective when swung "off hand". Come on Back40, the two of us have Netflix, Amazon and Google, we know better than you.  | |||
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IN the Crosshairs is not an action movie. It is history. Written by Col. Michael Lee Lanning. Also, Marshall’s research was to get soldiers shooting. However, Marshall has fallen out of academic favor. Thus, I have not citied it. Why has no military ever brought a shotgun as a main line battle weapon> We know the answer. It is not an efficient or useful as the rifles we have defined here being semi or select fire, external box magazine fed, button release, centerfire firearms. That we are even arguing this is ridiculous. I actually have not seen Rambo or Arnold’s war movies. I did love Rocky. I did watch the first Terminator movie. I do not like it. I wonder what Arnold’s bet film is? I have never seen an Arnaold film, but Terminator. Tell me? How do all these untrained, young adults manage to kill so many and hold back law enforcement? It is not with shotguns. It is with firearms defined above. Tell me? How did all those Depression Era crime folks bring havoc with Thompson, BARs. These things are arguable. It is why we got the NFA. Oh, remember that Miami FBI shootout. Well, the bad guys had semi auto rifles. The FBI had pistols and a shotgun. We know how that ended. 2 bad guys versus 8 FBI agents with handguns and one shotgun. Nope, the shotgun is not the equalizer. | |||
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I'm a little late to this conversation, but there have been some great observations on both sides I can agree with. When I joined this site I did so because I happened to buy a 300 H&H Remington 721, and ammunition back then was only Federal Premium at Gander Mountain for $35/box in 2001, so I started reloading because this site came up in a search to provide me loads which worked. It opened up another world where I discovered all types of history related to firearms, and at a young age I later enjoyed big bores, and hot-rodding 45 revolvers, vintage firearms, etc. I loved to share what I was interested in to others, passing on what I'd learned, even though back then - even today, I have yet to go to Africa to justify a big bore rifle. Our politics on both sides created an impossible chasm. In my opinion, I think that reactions to gun crimes, the "thoughts and prayers," is the same as "we need to ban this/that." If you consider prohibition, to start, the banning of something leads to a proliferation of another. | |||
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When I was in high school, a private school with exchange students boarding, there were a bunch from Korea. It was a culture shock for them when they realized how widely-available guns were in the USA. But back then, which was around 1997, I was proud to share my interest in guns because I felt it was something to share - to be proud to own and use, to exercise our 2nd Amendment. To go hunting and go shooting. Later, I was a private tutor and had wealthy students from Korea whose fathers breathed rarified air and owned rifles in Korea, but it was a unique privilege to go out and hunt pigs, or whatever they described, even beyond others that had Ferraris and other exceptional things. Exceptionalism with regard to gun ownership is where we've always been, but we also need to evaluate how we juggle the politics within a world that allows access to not only AR-type guns, but also quality of life - and the things we provide to our citizens. It's quite the litmus test, but America has always been one, so here's to figuring it out! | |||
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Heym you are acting just like you complain about Lane. You know jackshit except what you read and stick to it. The shotgun was a support weapon, never said it was issued to all, you are twisting things. You do not "walk" in a run and gun firefight. You are flat out stupid if you think you could last that way. It is all done at high speed, switching positions and cover points, keeping up fire as you move. M4 or shotgun excels, oversize heavy BAR, your a dead man. You just keep sticking to your storybooks of days past. The world of warfare is continually changing. You are talking out your ass. | |||
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Oh Heym The shootout in florida was the first time LEO's came up against civilians using body armor. The perps had multiple hits from both weapons. Keep being the lawyer, twist and turn, try to find something to cover your ass. | |||
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| One of Us |
WW11; As old as I am, still way to young to reference WW11 personally. My father was engaged in the Philippines. He never spoke much about it. A medic so he saw enough carnage. Noted he carried a grease gun but also a lot of M1 carbines used. Likely because of the jungle landscape (short and handy) in most areas although he did mention some islands were rocky and barren. Said everyones ones largest fear was an artillery shell hitting a tree. No way to escape the shrapnel even in a fox hole. He experience in that environment was artillery was the cause of most casualties. Noted one of their most effective weapons I recall was a 40 MM that was filled with large type buckshot they would set up in a road crossing in a small village. It would take out any small platoon coming down a path. In that environment WII Malaria and Jhondas (spelling) sidelined a lot of soldiers. I once took a 26" rifle on a goat hunt in BC. Had to climb up through a jungle of undergrowth up a very steep incline. Next trip it would be a 22" pipe on my rifle. Tools for the trade... EZ | |||
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I think you have made a very strong case that high capacity shotguns should be included with semi-auto's and more scrutiny should be applied before purchase.  I have more than a little bit of experience playing around with shotguns and patterns, no way the Vegas shooter was going to pull off those numbers with a shotgun unless the victims were tethered in place. | |||
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I see skb, there is no way a bad guy would adapt his kill zone to what they are using, right? You can be as dumb as heym. Ban semi auto rifles, and yes, the shotguns will be on the block next. Thats the way bans work. | |||
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Cars / vehicles...unlimmited choices How many times have we seen this the past year.
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You are putting words in mouth, I have not advocated for banning anything. I have suggested making semi-sutos harder to obtain but not a ban. As usual, the devil is in the details. | |||
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| One of Us |
Not near as many, nor as effective as the assaults using an AR. | |||
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| One of Us |
Do you remember the Christmas parade in Wisconsin? Two weeks ago the bus stop in Brownsville? They can be very effective if used as a tool. You do not have to have a background check to acquire one. Just as soon not carry this any further as who knows who reads these threads. Just more ideas that simplify the end game. Media and government nor anyone is anxious to take away your transportation. Sometimes I think all the CSI FBI SWAT shows glamorize military type engagement. A catalyst
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. . . in 2022 there were 42 mass shootings, 36 involved guns. That is more that 86%. Raising the issue of cars, knives, baseball bats, etc. is just an attempted deflection. The real source of the problem is quite clear to anyone paying attention. Mike | |||
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No skb, you have not advocated a ban. I would go along with raising the age for a centerfire semi auto to be 21. In return, I want the 300 plus significant gun laws on the books enforced. It will not stop mass killings, neither will a ban on any new AR style. Neither will confiscation. And the left is never happy, shotguns and handguns would be next to be confiscated. Shut down the hate websites, lets see if that helps. It is no different altering the 2 A. | |||
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One of Us |
Yesterday I had a Dr appt and they have signs all over the building posted that no weapons are allowed inside of any kind. At the check in desk there is a large poster with big letters that said, "No violence will be tolerated in this facility". I personally wondered what their plan was if someone had different ideas? Seriously. I sat down and nearby me was a local rancher who had two empty knife cases on his belt. I asked him if he lost his knives. I knew he didn't but wanted to strike up a convo. He said well they are not allowed inside here, this is the new America you know. I told him I do not comply as this is not the America I grew up in. I said don't forget, 'tools' can fit in a pocket, etc. We chatted a bit longer while waiting. Bottom line, signs are meaningless. Violent people do not follow these so why should the sane? The violent look for places like that which target citizens who submit. I personally will not go down without a good fight if I have to and am always prepared. That man should have concealed his items just in case. I hope the conversation stirred some more thought on his part. ~Ann   | |||
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| One of Us |
You're going to have to explain to me how a shotgun topped up to mag capacity with maybe 6 plus 1 available would be superior to a .45 caliber subgun with a 30 round magazine that you can change in 3 seconds. We'll leave out the 50 round drum mags available for some variants the Thompson. The problem with the BAR was it weighed 20 lbs and only had a 20 round capacity. A squad light machinegun is intended for suppression. It has to be belt fed. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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What did the other 6 involve…slingshots??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
True story. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Wearing a bandolier or a shell pouch…you can feed and M4 (and many other SA shotguns) about as fast as you can shoot it. I have personally shot a 5 gallon bucket of shells through an M4 while standing on the landing gear of a helicopter in an afternoon…eradicating hogs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You can't load and shoot it as fast as you can load and shoot a Thompson. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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| One of Us |
More to the relevant point of this thread untrained murdered can’t load and shot the m4 as fast as they can the rifle I have defined. I also agree with belt feed suppression compared to the BAR. In a WWI Trench I will take the Thompson or BAR over the Winchester 1897. If I could have a FN M249, yes give me that. As the FBI found out in Miami handguns and shotguns are better than nothing, but not the best to wrestle, box Fed semi-select fire, button release magazine, centerfire rifles. Scott King. My teacher on the subject came from West Point. | |||
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And you know well how bans work, as next after harder to obtain is full ban and you. Are gun dealer? What a dush bag you are. | |||
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And you know well how bans work, as next after harder to obtain is full ban and you. Are gun dealer? What a dush bag you are.[/QUOTE] You know nothing of American culture or society, you know less of skb, fuck off. Violence generally and gun violence specifically is a huge problem in America, so most Americans including myself think. Nobody gives a fuck what you think. Just one, just one single mass school shooting is to much for all of us and these discussions, no matter how far flung or inconsequential allow us to exchange ideas in the pursuit of solutions. What you ignant drunk myopic Russians Hope this helps. | |||
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| One of Us |
No thompsons in ww1. The thompson is a relic, good for play. I have put thousands of rounds through one trying to master it, for fun. It's open bolt design sucks. Sucks to field strip. It's heavy. The recoil line is so far above the butstock, it twists off target. At 30-40 yds, it takes a great deal of trigger control to keep it on a man target before it climbs off. It is slow to regain target aquisition. There is a reason it was a short lived design. I came back from an op with a CZ skorpion, from a guy who didnt need it anymore. It was only a 32 auto, but a burst could be kept on target. It was just like a load of 00 buckshot in a trigger squeeze. And it fit in my pack very nicely until needed. Unless patroling in wide open terrain, you will see shotguns on the backs of more than a few soldiers. A quick switch when buildings or alleys are entered. | |||
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| One of Us |
You know nothing of American culture or society, you know less of skb, fuck off. Violence generally and gun violence specifically is a huge problem in America, so most Americans including myself think. Nobody gives a fuck what you think. Just one, just one single mass school shooting is to much for all of us and these discussions, no matter how far flung or inconsequential allow us to exchange ideas in the pursuit of solutions. What you ignant drunk myopic Russians Hope this helps.[/QUOTE] Russian? Drunk? You funny Scott Besides you don’t know anything about me so why the accusations? But I know you won’t answer so it’s Ok | |||
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True. But the hit/kill percentage goes to the shotgun. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Not sure what you do for a living however if you are driven, ambitious or easily persuaded and have a goal and one avenue has been blocked to achieve that position, do you just quit or look for another path to reach your goal? That old cliche: More than one way to skin a cat.. That being said, I am not sure why all the interest by the general public in assault firearms? About all you see these days in a gun shop. The type of firearms I have collected and used over my life span have no resembelence to them. EZ
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. . . speculation. Maybe you can share with us an example or two of a mass killer that tried to get an AR or a semiautomatic pistol, was unsuccessful and then resorted to a shotgun, hunting rifle, car, etc.  Mike | |||
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Remove them and they will find another path. That was my point. And options are readily available. | |||
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. . . speculation. Mike | |||
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Logic.
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. . . then give an example of where it has occurred to date. Mike | |||
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