The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum James Baker: Gun laws Republicans can supportGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Thing is, you cannot legislate human behavior and more restrictions you put in, more you put ordinary law abiding citizens at peril as criminals and nut cases without regard for human life find loopholes and ways around any additional laws, rules, red flags etc… Deterrent works well whatever it may beAnd law abiding citizens are their own worst enemies if they let politicians dictate restrictions on them instead of punishing criminals the hardest way possible | |||
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It you want immediate results…there^^^it is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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. . . I see, another vote for the “do nothing” option and hope the mass shootings miraculously stop. Reminds me of the saying, wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up faster. Mike | |||
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It is the mentality of the shooter that kills. Sure that mentality might be drawn to a certain weapon but with held…they will adapt. Caving to gun restrictions will never reverse if given in to…we will just loose more freedom drip drip drip until it is all gone. Harden and start the mental health care. Force doctors (sorry Dr. B) to start reporting these psychos! Most have been evaluated. If you are mentally ill…the 4473 should exclude you now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Maybe we can put bars on the windows and doors too. Turn elementary schools into mini-prisons or military installations. Maybe mine the parameters too. I know I always wanted my children to go school in a prison like setting. I guess to address shootings at malls, churches and bars, we should do the same thing. Brilliant! Mike | |||
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What? You don't do the "tacticool"? No Delta Force pants? No Seal Team 6 socks?  I agree, the change in the gun culture is for the worse. We love war. We love the gear and the image and the idea of "bad ass". A few years ago I took a guy duck hunting for the first time and in several different ways he attempted to insert ideas of combat readiness. "I like to carry my weapon in Condition,....." "Don't you think a pistol grip shotgun would,......" "A tactical sling could,......" I told him plainly to do what he wants on his own time, but on my time we're going to hunt like gentlemen and sportsmen. At Mass on Sundays we wish each other peace. Not very popular anymore. After 20 years of painful lessons in Afghanistan and Iraq, there's a burst of energy to rush over to Ukraine.  I want my kid, really any kid to grow up dreaming about becoming a farmer or doctor, an architect or a teacher. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a child grow up to be a composer or sculptor? Why aren't we as parents and a nation not prioritizing these things more than an AR? | |||
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Danger of some of you way of thinking is simply giving club in the hand of government and wield it with unprecedented and unopposed powers More government wants to restrict, more you will see opposition and more you will see mayhem excuses of criminal behavior got western societies in more trouble then anything else and governments just find another way to restrict personal freedoms as that is the only thing governments seem to be good at…Power over people is absolute and eternal addiction | |||
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Or I guess we can do nothing productive and just keep hoping it stops. Of course I am sure if we just outlawed armor piercing bullets…it would stop. The so-called logic that flows through this place boggles the mind.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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. . . what’s your solution or are you just a critic? I thought your Pappy said not to complain unless you have a proposed solution. Let’s hear it. Mike | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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. . . and while we wait for the mental health efforts to bear fruit over the next decade, we just keep burying mass shooting victims, telling their families that our prayers are with them and generally lamenting the decline in civility in society. That’s comforting. Mike | |||
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We should all be careful of "let's do something, anything!" sentimentality. It leads to error and over-regulation. A new law isn't justified unless there's some showing of effectiveness and a causal relationship to the problem--the problem being mass shootings. I'd like the proponents of Baker's ideas to say which ones would prevent mass shootings, and how. | |||
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If you have an issue with young people using AR’s and semi-automatic pistols to commit mass shootings, are you seriously suggesting that those demographics do not suggest a means of helping to reduce such shootings? Mike | |||
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I'm sorry if I missed it, but which of Baker's proposals rely on demographics? Are you talking about some other proposal that only affects 18-20 year olds' Second Amendment rights? Not that a comparison to the privilege to drive is apropos, but cutting down on the number of teenage drivers would reduce the number of traffic deaths. | |||
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Maybe we approach the issue from a different angle. Do you believe that mass shootings are an issue today? If so, do you believe that there are certain common characteristics of such shootings in terms of the types of weapons involved, the age of shooters, etc.? If you believe that mass shootings are an issue we need to address, and if you believe that such shootings seem to involve certain common elements, what is your proposed solution? Mike | |||
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KY did just that. When I was a teenager one could get a full license at 16. Now, you cannot get a full license until 17 after a year of driving on an intermediate license with limitations on where and when the driver can operate a vehicle. One can get the intermediate license after one has qualified and performex the learner’s permit requirements. As for 18-20 year olds. I strongly support this, if only because juvenile Justice cases are not reported to the background check system. Most of those cases seek rehabilitation through social service like programs. Thus, eluding the background check reporting. I would also expand the number of Misdemeanors that disqualifies one from being transferred or possessing firearms such as Wanton Endangerment and misdemeanor Child Abuse. Now, I fully understand that such a legislative scheme may not survive analysis by the S. Ct. under the New York decision. In the W. District of Kentucky the Fed law barring firearms from those adjudicated of Domestic Violence has been declared unconstitutional following the New York case. That case currently does not apply to the E. District of Kentucky. A law that prevents the transfer of external box magazine feed, button release, semi automatic rifles to 18-20 year olds would have prevented this mass murder. Uvalde elementary school shooting, May 24, 2022: A heavily armed 18-year-old spent over an hour in a fourth-grade classroom, killing 19 students and two adults, while law enforcement officers gathered outside. The gunman started buying thousands of rounds of ammunition and two AR-15-style rifles after his 18th birthday, per the Texas Tribune. Hardening schools and a well funded, well trained law enforcement presence would have also prevented Uvalde. I am all for funding both with new taxes on firearms and ammunition. | |||
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I take issue with this statement. More likely the killers would have used shotguns or other firearms to carry out their massacres. Or are you suggesting the urge to kill came from an inanimate object, like an evil demon-possessed AR? | |||
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Again, you're coming from the "let's do something, anything" mindset. Better to do nothing than the wrong thing. Maybe there is only so much a free society can do to suppress mass violence. When you tell me the cause of the increase in mass shootings, I might be able to come up with something. There are a few things that would probably help, including better background checks, hardening schools, and more funding for mental health care. But they've all been discussed. I have nothing new to suggest, absent more information as to the cause of these incidents. | |||
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Or the converse of that argument … allow anyone and everyone to buy whatever that want. Pop in to your local store and pick up an RPG7, or a bag of phosphorus grenades, a sawn off shotgun, a 20mm auto cannon, a few claymores … it’s not the RPG7 that kills people  | |||
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Not from schools if we follow my approach. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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A) They are not shotguns. One can buy a shotgun over the counter (pump) for 400 bucks. They are using the more expensive rifle described above. Despite what some here have stated, no you can not kill as many as fast and efficient w a plugged or unplugged 4-8 round shotgun as you can the above described rifle. B) The Uvalde shooter purchased the above described rifle bc it was the best tool for the job. Now, I fully admit, such a restriction is going to have a hard time at the S. Ct. given the New York case. Unless, the opportunity gives the opposition another bite at the apple. | |||
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This seems to be a common retort . . . and one that is made without any factual or empirical basis. Let's hear about all the mass shooters that tried to buy an AR or a semi-automatic pistol, were denied or otherwise unable to, who then used a Rem 870 or a Marlin 336 to commit their atrocity. I think the "let's do nothing and hope for a better outcome" crowd have their standard list of bromides they like to throw out in response to these situations, e.g., people kill, not guns, take away the guns and they will use something else, punish the criminal not the gun, etc. The statements all sound appealing but really translate to let's do nothing and hope for a different outcome. Hope is not a strategy. Mike | |||
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While you are at it, maybe you can convince the mass shooters to confine themselves to attacking schools, not churches, synagogues, community centers, malls, grocery stores, bars and restaurants, places of employment, government buildings, etc. . . . or perhaps we just "harden" those too and spend life going from cage to cage. Mike | |||
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They will adapt.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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. . . I thought you were the fellow that liked to focus on facts not speculation. Fact is the mass shooters are using ARs and semi-automatic pistols. Mike | |||
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Who's going to pay for it, 115,000 schools in the US? A tax on each gun or round of ammo sold maybe? And based on recent evidence you are also going to need the "harden" shopping malls, places of worship and places of entertainment? Does it not strike you that something fundamental is wrong with your society if you need armed guards and metal detectors at schools, malls and churches? | |||
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Maybe, maybe not. In any event, you're option limits them to 5 shells and 1 in the tube plus one shell at a time reloading. That configuration would not be nearly as effective as a magazine fed rifle with a 30 round capacity and the ability to load 30 more shots in 2-3 seconds. I own that M4 by the way. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Yes, emphatically yes. | |||
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Earlier you posted this: "Uvalde elementary school shooting, May 24, 2022: A heavily armed 18-year-old spent over an hour in a fourth-grade classroom, killing 19 students and two adults, while law enforcement officers gathered outside." Don't you think a guy could kill 21 people in an HOUR with a shotgun? | |||
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. . . why talk about hypotheticals, the fact is he killed 21 people with an AR that he bought as soon as he turned 18. Could he have killed them with a hole punch in an hour, maybe, and when mass murderers start using hole punches to kill people then we can have a conversation about whether those need to be more tightly regulated. Mike | |||
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The US already has, by far, the highest incarceration rate. What's behind many crimes is a disturbed mental healt. Either directl, or indirectly through substance use. The reason why so many people suffer from a disturbed mental health are myriad. No security (job, financial, health) all leads to higher stress, which impacts mental health, for example. The whole polarisation in society also doesn't help. Increasing job, financial and health security touches on core values of people, which also touch on the core values of parties, and as such, they get reinforced by politics and polarisation. Removing guns might maybe (temporarily) reduce mass shootings, but it doesn't address the underlying issues, which drive people to a state where they don't see another way than a mass shooting. | |||
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Just FYI, there are 12 shot extended tube magazines available (used in 3 gun)… I think you can get 20+ shells in using the mini shells. Point is, ban the AR, and they move to a different gun… then that becomes the new ban du jour. after a time, you end up in an absolutely restricted system. We banned full autos made after 86… however, no crimes have been committed by legally owned machine guns of note. It was done because some folks pressed a scare through. If you want an example of switching, look at England. They banned guns, and yet they still have gun deaths, and have an accelerating violent crime rate. One thing criminologists don’t like talking about is that diverse communities have more violence than single ethnic ones. Are we going to ban multiracial communities over that? I thought not. Canada wants to ban rifles with more than so much energy… yet that has not been a problem as far as crime (who uses a .460 WBY to hold up a store?) Fundamentally, if you want a reasonable compromise, it needs to be shown to be fundamentally effective, not some silly if we ban AR 15’s there will be less crime committed by AR 15 using criminals. The problem is society has encouraged some behaviors that have led to a percentage committing atrocities. How do you stop the atrocities? While limiting access to some objects might make the acts harder to accomplish, it does nothing to solve the underlying issue. How do you fix the underlying issue? Unless you are willing to allow some significant inroads against privacy and freedom, I’m not sure you can. Say as Lane mentioned above, you make physicians report serious mental issues… and you get complete buy in on the part of the medical community… Are you going to force treatment? Are you going to allow restrictions on a group of people because they have a “statistically higher risk of committing crime?” Not every person with a violent fantasy acts on it (in fact, given the popularity of dystopian movies, I’d venture to say many more have these than commit violence)- so if Fred says “I thought the movie Kill Bill was a good movie” and his doc hears that (and is of the right persuasion) that individual instantly loses all self defense rights? Yes, at its basis, freedom requires accepting some risks. How much we are willing to tolerate is a social issue. Our founders would be flabbergasted by how much restriction we tolerate… but also would be struck dumb by how much more we are capable of, without any apparent effort. What would Ben Franklin think if he saw the space x rocket ship? | |||
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No, I do not. The efficient fire power of these weapons (I am using my prior definition) is beyond that of even an unplugged shotgun. Any one who denies this is free to spend the weekend here. You can run the shotgun. I will run the AR against the clock. We will see how much more I fire, hit, and reload faster than the pump or Benelli. I think the Uvalde Mass Murder would have feared off law enforcement having to manually reload every 3-5 shots. Our society is much less restrictive with firearms than the 18th and 19th centuries. The S. Ct interpretation of the Bill of Rights allowed it. States barred firearm possession bases on race in the 1870s. The Founders would be shocked that we have tried to create a Federal level of citizenship to the detriment of independent states. | |||
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That's an interesting argument. It suggests that if mass murderers do turn to shotguns, you'd be willing to talk about banning shotguns. Next would be handguns, I suppose. I like hypotheticals. Like analogies (lol), they can shed light on issues that are not clearly discerned due to being clouded by emotionalism or other sentiment. | |||
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I think hypotheticals make for interesting esoteric arguments. Here, however, we are dealing with the reality that most mass shootings involve AR-style rifles and semi-automatic high capacity pistols. And we are not talking about hypothetical dead children and adults they are very real to their parents and families. Would seem sensible to address the reality confronting us as opposed to hypotheticals that we can all spin out all day long and that may or may not ever come to pass. Mike | |||
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Here is another consideration, purely political and the S. Ct. not with standing, would we rather a) as conservatives/GOP negotiate in good faith on popular firearm reform, or b) continue to be the the party of no and have the Assault Weapons Ban return? I will be honest. I would have no issue adding centerfire, button magazine release, external magazine rifles added as transferable NFA weapons requiring the stamp, but more importantly the more extensive, slower back ground check. | |||
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And I have no problem to call tightening of regulations on regular basic by politician for everything that happens in life as “ hunger for power “ simple controlling sickness | |||
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100% Nute our society is SICK! No question about it. The reason I will NEVER give up any of my guns. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You better stick to lawyering. Fly around in a helicopter and shoot hogs where the targets never end with both an AR and a Benelli M4 and and at the end of each trip tell me your kill rate with each. I do it a couple of times a month. I can tell you which is the most lethal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Aren't we talking about what if we ban ARs? A hypothetical question. Your answer seems to be, "Then mass murder incidents will decrease." Show me how that works. The evil ARs do not drive people to murder. Some mass murderers use handguns (e.g., VA Tech). More recently, automobiles and a ball bat have been used. If anything becomes popular with killers, let's ban it. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum James Baker: Gun laws Republicans can support
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