quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I have said before. I am deeply saddened by the destroying of those olive trees. They could be as much as 800-1000 yrs old. Think of what they have witnessed!

Profoundly sad isn't it. So many lives lost and ruined by hate filled people on both sides.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I have said before. I am deeply saddened by the destroying of those olive trees. They could be as much as 800-1000 yrs old. Think of what they have witnessed!

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Those that perpetrated it, yes. The other 2 million or so, no.

They facilitated it and cheered it on. Guilty.

All 2 million of them? Ridiculous argument.

Logic dictates that if 2M were against Hamas…Hamas would not have been in control.

How about those in Boston who funded the IRA via Noraid, should we hold everyone in Boston responsible, how about everyone in Massachusetts?

False equivalency. We know the majority in Boston did not support the IRA. Plenty of evidence to suggest the vast majority DID support Hamas.

How about the burning alive of an 18 month old Palestinian baby by Israeli settlers? Don't recall you condemning all settlers to death, or should it be all Israeli's? How about for his parents, who both also died in agony?

I have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers doused a child with accelerant and set them alight while their families cheered them on. Please provide a credible evidence of that.

How about a 16 year old Palestinian kid also burned alive by Israeli settlers? Again I missed your condemnation of all Israelis and your call for Isreal to be bulldozed into the sea or bombed flat.

Show me the evidence.

You present yourself as objective and logical, but you are neither on this subject.
The two are not compatible and never will be. Let the strongest survive. After 10/7…the only gripe I have with Netanyahu/Israel…is that they have not been nearly as aggressive as I would have been.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
PS: I support the Arab states getting together with Egypt and opening the border to evacuate Gaza for all those who want to leave and find a life in peace away from war.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Those that perpetrated it, yes. The other 2 million or so, no.

They facilitated it and cheered it on. Guilty.

All 2 million of them? Ridiculous argument.

Logic dictates that if 2M were against Hamas…Hamas would not have been in control.

Not what I said though was it. How do you “know “ all 2 million that you are happy to condemn to death were dancing and celebrating on 10/7 … because you have seen a few photos and video clips … that is sufficient in your view to indiscriminately shoot and bomb 2 million people due to the actions of a few thousand.

How about those in Boston who funded the IRA via Noraid, should we hold everyone in Boston responsible, how about everyone in Massachusetts?

False equivalency. We know the majority in Boston did not support the IRA. Plenty of evidence to suggest the vast majority DID support Hamas.

No, it’s an example of your flawed logic. How do you “know” the majority didn’t support the IRA? The same way you know 2 million Palestinians were celebrating the actions of Hamas?

How about the burning alive of an 18 month old Palestinian baby by Israeli settlers? Don't recall you condemning all settlers to death, or should it be all Israeli's? How about for his parents, who both also died in agony?

I have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers doused a child with accelerant and set them alight while their families cheered them on. Please provide a credible evidence of that.

It was well publicised at the time, as are a lot of the other beatings and murders of Palestinians by settlers, often with the IDF doing nothing. The fact that you are unaware of this happening shows you haven’t looked and have drawn conclusions based on your preferred facts rather than the actual facts

How about a 16 year old Palestinian kid also burned alive by Israeli settlers? Again I missed your condemnation of all Israelis and your call for Isreal to be bulldozed into the sea or bombed flat.

Show me the evidence.

You present yourself as objective and logical, but you are neither on this subject.
The two are not compatible and never will be. Let the strongest survive. After 10/7…the only gripe I have with Netanyahu/Israel…is that they have not been nearly as aggressive as I would have been.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Those that perpetrated it, yes. The other 2 million or so, no.

They facilitated it and cheered it on. Guilty.

All 2 million of them? Ridiculous argument.

Logic dictates that if 2M were against Hamas…Hamas would not have been in control.

Not what I said though was it. How do you “know “ all 2 million that you are happy to condemn to death were dancing and celebrating on 10/7 … because you have seen a few photos and video clips … that is sufficient in your view to indiscriminately shoot and bomb 2 million people due to the actions of a few thousand.

But you are trying to insinuate a majority are against Hamas. The evidence is contrary.

How about those in Boston who funded the IRA via Noraid, should we hold everyone in Boston responsible, how about everyone in Massachusetts?

False equivalency. We know the majority in Boston did not support the IRA. Plenty of evidence to suggest the vast majority DID support Hamas.

No, it’s an example of your flawed logic. How do you “know” the majority didn’t support the IRA? The same way you know 2 million Palestinians were celebrating the actions of Hamas?

Flawed logic? When by definition you are using flawed logic by making a false equivalency. We all know the % of Bostonians funding the IRA was tiny. And, I am sure proof can be found of that if dug for.

How about the burning alive of an 18 month old Palestinian baby by Israeli settlers? Don't recall you condemning all settlers to death, or should it be all Israeli's? How about for his parents, who both also died in agony?

I have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers doused a child with accelerant and set them alight while their families cheered them on. Please provide a credible evidence of that.

It was well publicised at the time, as are a lot of the other beatings and murders of Palestinians by settlers, often with the IDF doing nothing. The fact that you are unaware of this happening shows you haven’t looked and have drawn conclusions based on your preferred facts rather than the actual facts
Steve presented an example of a heinous act perpetrated by an Israeli. It was horrific. But, the Israeli authorities responded timely and took appropriate action.

The Palestinians/Hamas put out so much propaganda…that you are right…I don’t listen to it anymore.

How about a 16 year old Palestinian kid also burned alive by Israeli settlers? Again I missed your condemnation of all Israelis and your call for Isreal to be bulldozed into the sea or bombed flat.

Show me the evidence.

You present yourself as objective and logical, but you are neither on this subject.
The two are not compatible and never will be. Let the strongest survive. After 10/7…the only gripe I have with Netanyahu/Israel…is that they have not been nearly as aggressive as I would have been.

If Mexico took Texas back but said they would be ok with you crossing the boarder and living on OK would you be happy with that, of course you wouldn’t.

The Israelis have been very good about finding and killing anyone who has targeted their citizens. The people who perpetrated 10/7 deserve the death penalty. Killing, maiming and starving the other 2 million who live there makes the Israelis no better than those who carried out 10/7 and those who are still holding hostages

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Many in the west have buried the history of Israeli terrorism, it does not fit the narrative that they approve of.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Those that perpetrated it, yes. The other 2 million or so, no.

They facilitated it and cheered it on. Guilty.

All 2 million of them? Ridiculous argument.

Logic dictates that if 2M were against Hamas…Hamas would not have been in control.

Not what I said though was it. How do you “know “ all 2 million that you are happy to condemn to death were dancing and celebrating on 10/7 … because you have seen a few photos and video clips … that is sufficient in your view to indiscriminately shoot and bomb 2 million people due to the actions of a few thousand.

But you are trying to insinuate a majority are against Hamas. The evidence is contrary.

No, I’m not. I’m pushing back against your previous statements to the effect that they are all guilty by association therefore “pass the bombs” in your own words. I have no problem with killing off those directly involved with 10/7, none at all, but using it as an excuse to exterminate 2 million people is genocide.

Depending on whose figures you accept up to half the population of Gaza are children. Half of the remainder are women, so on the assumption that this was perpetrated by mainly adult men that’s already only 25% of the total populace whose extermination you support. Granted a 14 year old could probably be involved that increases the proportion a bit but by no means all men were involved so that cuts it drastically. Even if people sympathised with Hamas that’s not illegal Lane, it’s stupid, but it shouldn’t be a death scentance. Plenty of neo Nazis in the US, again stupid but shouldn’t be a death sentence.

How about those in Boston who funded the IRA via Noraid, should we hold everyone in Boston responsible, how about everyone in Massachusetts?

False equivalency. We know the majority in Boston did not support the IRA. Plenty of evidence to suggest the vast majority DID support Hamas.

No, it’s an example of your flawed logic. How do you “know” the majority didn’t support the IRA? The same way you know 2 million Palestinians were celebrating the actions of Hamas?

Flawed logic? When by definition you are using flawed logic by making a false equivalency. We all know the % of Bostonians funding the IRA was tiny. And, I am sure proof can be found of that if dug for.

I’m using this example to point out the lack of evidence for your earlier statements. It’s not that difficult to grasp this. You make statements supporting the indiscriminate killing of up to 2 million people 75% of which are likely to be women or children based on your flawed understanding of what is going on there. I’m just trying to point out that you “knowing” something doesn’t make it true.

There are opinion polls out there which show the level of support for Hamas, ok they are just opinion polls but Id expect they are a better general guide that things you “know”.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/...s-now-double-fatahs/

Ten months into this mess, they find support for Hamas at 40%, up from 22% prior to 10/7. This appears to include the West Bank too, so isn’t just Gaza.

How about the burning alive of an 18 month old Palestinian baby by Israeli settlers? Don't recall you condemning all settlers to death, or should it be all Israeli's? How about for his parents, who both also died in agony?

I have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers doused a child with accelerant and set them alight while their families cheered them on. Please provide a credible evidence of that.

It was well publicised at the time, as are a lot of the other beatings and murders of Palestinians by settlers, often with the IDF doing nothing. The fact that you are unaware of this happening shows you haven’t looked and have drawn conclusions based on your preferred facts rather than the actual facts
Steve presented an example of a heinous act perpetrated by an Israeli. It was horrific. But, the Israeli authorities responded timely and took appropriate action.

The Palestinians/Hamas put out so much propaganda…that you are right…I don’t listen to it anymore.

So you view reports of Israeli wrongdoing as propaganda because it may come from Hamas, yet you agree totally with Israel’s prohibition on any western news media getting access to give a view other than that from Hamas. Perfectly logical….

These incidents are not uncommon. Plenty of evidence out there that at least a proportion are true, normally when it’s been vigorously denied by the IDF who then provide a fabricated story to justify whatever happened only to have to eat their own words once a video of the incident comes to light.

Again, I have no problem with those who undertook 10/7 being up against a wall and shot. Israel has been very good at rooting out and dealing with those who attack her citizens. They would have been perfectly capable of doing so here without resorting to extermination of Gaza.

How about a 16 year old Palestinian kid also burned alive by Israeli settlers? Again I missed your condemnation of all Israelis and your call for Isreal to be bulldozed into the sea or bombed flat.

Show me the evidence.

You present yourself as objective and logical, but you are neither on this subject.
The two are not compatible and never will be. Let the strongest survive. After 10/7…the only gripe I have with Netanyahu/Israel…is that they have not been nearly as aggressive as I would have been.

If Mexico took Texas back but said they would be ok with you crossing the boarder and living on OK would you be happy with that, of course you wouldn’t.

The Israelis have been very good about finding and killing anyone who has targeted their citizens. The people who perpetrated 10/7 deserve the death penalty. Killing, maiming and starving the other 2 million who live there makes the Israelis no better than those who carried out 10/7 and those who are still holding hostages

The bottom line is this: The Palestinians will NEVER live at peace with the Jewish people. NEVER! They have demonstrated that. There is ZERO chance of a 2 state solution working! While I am certain you can cite mistakes made by Israel…they have been in the right the vast majority of the time. If the world wants to help this region…translocation of the Palestinians is the only viable option. The Israelis have had enough this time and I would be exactly the same. I will concede that there are some innocents caught up. There is in every war.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

Nute, you argue among other things that you know better than Doc and yet you are as far removed and no more experienced or informed than any other Westerner. You make your decisions and have your preferences based exclusively on the media you decide to believe, your peers opinions that you like and how a particular breakfast settled in your mid section.

Just like most of the rest of us, certainly me.

But Hamas is the long time government in authority over the Palestinians, strike one. Hamas chooses to and the Palestinians choose to let Hamas conduct its war exclusively from behind civilian people and infrastructure, strike two.
Despite staggering losses and defeat, Hamas refuses to retreat, surrender, capitulate, etc, and the Palestinians refuse to give Hamas up and retreat, surrender, capitulate. Strike three.

If Israel retreats from Gaza, Hamas is resurgent. If Israel continues it's pursuit, it appears that Hamas is happy and willing to sacrifice its very last child. It looks to me like the Kushner takeover is the best plan.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

Nute, you argue among other things that you know better than Doc and yet you are as far removed and no more experienced or informed than any other Westerner. You make your decisions and have your preferences based exclusively on the media you decide to believe, your peers opinions that you like and how a particular breakfast settled in your mid section.

Just like most of the rest of us, certainly me.

But Hamas is the long time government in authority over the Palestinians, strike one. Hamas chooses to and the Palestinians choose to let Hamas conduct its war exclusively from behind civilian people and infrastructure, strike two.
Despite staggering losses and defeat, Hamas refuses to retreat, surrender, capitulate, etc, and the Palestinians refuse to give Hamas up and retreat, surrender, capitulate. Strike three.

If Israel retreats from Gaza, Hamas is resurgent. If Israel continues its pursuit, it appears that Hamas is happy and willing to sacrifice its very last child. It looks to me like the Kushner takeover is the best plan.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

Nute, you argue among other things that you know better than Doc and yet you are as far removed and no more experienced or informed than any other Westerner. You make your decisions and have your preferences based exclusively on the media you decide to believe, your peers opinions that you like and how a particular breakfast settled in your mid section.

Just like most of the rest of us, certainly me.

But Hamas is the long time government in authority over the Palestinians, strike one. Hamas chooses to and the Palestinians choose to let Hamas conduct its war exclusively from behind civilian people and infrastructure, strike two.
Despite staggering losses and defeat, Hamas refuses to retreat, surrender, capitulate, etc, and the Palestinians refuse to give Hamas up and retreat, surrender, capitulate. Strike three.

If Israel retreats from Gaza, Hamas is resurgent. If Israel continues its pursuit, it appears that Hamas is happy and willing to sacrifice its very last child. It looks to me like the Kushner takeover is the best plan.

Scott, the examples I cited of horrendous things perpetrated by Israeli settlers predate the 10/7 when the press still had access to the area. Neither incident has been challenged by Israel and both are well documented. As are many many other incidents of beatings, burnings and destruction of legacy owned Palestinian property.

Settlers building on Palestinian land is also pretty easy to check.

The IDF murdering aid workers then burying the vehicles and bodies having come up with a cock and bull tale about how the aid workers vehicles were behaving ... only to find there was phone footage of what really happened ..is also well documented.

If you want to go a bit further back the various atrocities are also historical fact. If you choose not to believe them that's up to you.

I have an interest in history. I will read around a subject and look at what information is available from both sides. If you don't want to inform yourself and just condemn thousands of innocent people to death (and probably a few guilty ones mixed in with them ) is up to you. I don't claim to be an expert, but just because I don't live there doesn't mean I'm ignorant on the subject.

Read the times of Israel article linked above. Yes the times of Isreal is left leaning, but the increase in support for Hamas since the current conflict started is telling. Ive said it before, maybe you feel differently, but the fact is that Palestinians are not just in Gaza, there are thousands of them in surrounding countries and the West Bank. If you think by exterminating every living soul in Gaza that you won't be motivating all their brothers, cousins, fathers and sons to take revenge, with respect, you are naive.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
[QUOTE]

The bottom line is this, neither side has shown the ability to live with the other, there have been wrongs committed by settlers and the IDF going back to day 1. It’s not just mistakes as you seek to portray them. Settlers burning out Palestinian farms, beating and killing Palestinians, poisoning Palestinian farmers wells, the list is endless. It’s not a “ mistake” burning out farms and houses and then building a settlement there. Nothing justifies the wholesale slaughter of people in this instance.

Nute, you argue among other things that you know better than Doc and yet you are as far removed and no more experienced or informed than any other Westerner. You make your decisions and have your preferences based exclusively on the media you decide to believe, your peers opinions that you like and how a particular breakfast settled in your mid section.

Just like most of the rest of us, certainly me.

But Hamas is the long time government in authority over the Palestinians, strike one. Hamas chooses to and the Palestinians choose to let Hamas conduct its war exclusively from behind civilian people and infrastructure, strike two.
Despite staggering losses and defeat, Hamas refuses to retreat, surrender, capitulate, etc, and the Palestinians refuse to give Hamas up and retreat, surrender, capitulate. Strike three.

If Israel retreats from Gaza, Hamas is resurgent. If Israel continues its pursuit, it appears that Hamas is happy and willing to sacrifice its very last child. It looks to me like the Kushner takeover is the best plan.

Scott, the examples I cited of horrendous things perpetrated by Israeli settlers predate the 10/7 when the press still had access to the area. Neither incident has been challenged by Israel and both are well documented. As are many many other incidents of beatings, burnings and destruction of legacy owned Palestinian property.

Settlers building on Palestinian land is also pretty easy to check.

The IDF murdering aid workers then burying the vehicles and bodies having come up with a cock and bull tale about how the aid workers vehicles were behaving ... only to find there was phone footage of what really happened ..is also well documented.

If you want to go a bit further back the various atrocities are also historical fact. If you choose not to believe them that's up to you.

I have an interest in history. I will read around a subject and look at what information is available from both sides. If you don't want to inform yourself and just condemn thousands of innocent people to death (and probably a few guilty ones mixed in with them ) is up to you. I don't claim to be an expert, but just because I don't live there doesn't mean I'm ignorant on the subject.

Read the times of Israel article linked above. Yes the times of Isreal is left leaning, but the increase in support for Hamas since the current conflict started is telling. Ive said it before, maybe you feel differently, but the fact is that Palestinians are not just in Gaza, there are thousands of them in surrounding countries and the West Bank. If you think by exterminating every living soul in Gaza that you won't be motivating all their brothers, cousins, fathers and sons to take revenge, with respect, you are naive.

You beliving i advocate exterminating every living soul is the latest example of your preconceived notions based on your breakfast.

Doc and I are under the impression that Hamas has very broad, very large majority support from the Palestinians. You insist the opposite. From your seat in Britain.

Having survived the Battle of Britain, how popular would you have been with your neighbors for protesting German civilian deaths in the subsequent battles in europe?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I'd just say one more thing and then I'm done with this...I'm on record as saying I don't know what the solution is. But, when one side starts starving innocents on the other side to death, it's time to re-evaluate our support for the side implementing that policy.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I'd just say one more thing and then I'm done with this...I'm on record as saying I don't know what the solution is. But, when one side starts starving innocents on the other side to death, it's time to re-evaluate our support for the side implementing that policy.

I'm all for re evaluating support, but not in the middle of a fight.

And ill add that i think I know less of what a solution is than you.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As I see it, this won’t be settled until like northern Ireland both sides have a belly full of atrocity and counter atrocity.

Then both sides will be able to sit down and come up with a compromise solution that they both are willing to live with.

Right now the Israelis have the much bigger and more effective military. It is in their power to effect ethnic clensing of Gaza and the land claimed as Israel.

I hope they remember what caused the formation of Israel the modern state.

While I don’t think the Israelis are acting like the Nazis, it is remarkably like Stalin or Mao.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I'd just say one more thing and then I'm done with this...I'm on record as saying I don't know what the solution is. But, when one side starts starving innocents on the other side to death, it's time to re-evaluate our support for the side implementing that policy.

I'm all for re evaluating support, but not in the middle of a fight.

And ill add that i think I know less of what a solution is than you.

You know what bro? There isn't a solution. I'm old and this shit has been going on my whole life. And, it is going to continue to go on. As many folks have stated on here, all the Israelis are doing right now is creating the next generation of fighters for Hamas or some other terrorist organization. And, all Hamas is doing is forcing the Israelis to double down on their security efforts. It's circular and intractable.

We should try to stay as far away from it as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I saw a horrible act performed by some sick Israelis who were handled appropriately by Israeli authorities.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I'd just say one more thing and then I'm done with this...I'm on record as saying I don't know what the solution is. But, when one side starts starving innocents on the other side to death, it's time to re-evaluate our support for the side implementing that policy.

I'm all for re evaluating support, but not in the middle of a fight.

And ill add that i think I know less of what a solution is than you.

You know what bro? There isn't a solution. I'm old and this shit has been going on my whole life. And, it is going to continue to go on. As many folks have stated on here, all the Israelis are doing right now is creating the next generation of fighters for Hamas or some other terrorist organization. And, all Hamas is doing is forcing the Israelis to double down on their security efforts. It's circular and intractable.

We should try to stay as far away from it as possible.

If you're going to call me bro, (taken as a compliment,) can I call you Dude? ( said with brotherly love,) ?

quote:

If you think by exterminating every living soul in Gaza that you won't be motivating all their brothers, cousins, fathers and sons to take revenge you are naive.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

The truth is that the Palestinians intrinsically HATE jews. They hate them to their core. And nothing is going to make them not want to kill them.