I have not seen the video-

Chauvin "screwed up", did not follow protocol.
That said, this should have been (and imho, in most jurisdictions) negligent homicide.

Chauvin as on-scene lead officer "screwed up" by not summoning a "bus" (EMS) when the detainee stated "i can't breathe'
(Chauvin is not a paramedic (some officers are) and did not have medical equipment/facilities onsite.

(and, detainee's do both the "chest pain" and or "I can't breathe" routines a fair amount , hoping to get a get out of jail free card at the ED)

Ultimately, Mr. Floyd's, drug abuse/misuse (particularly his fentanyl serum "level")
were the most probable major factors in his demise in addition to his cardiac status.

As to trauma and/or asphyxiation---read the official autopsy - below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HENNEPIN COUNTY
MEDICAL EXAMINER’S OFFICE
AUTOPSY REPORT

CASE TITLE:
CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION

DECEASED: George Floyd aka Floyd Perry
SEX: M
AGE: 46
DATE AND HOUR OF DEATH: 5-25-20; 9:25 p.m.
DATE AND HOUR OF AUTOPSY: 5-26-20; 9:25 a.m.
PATHOLOGIST: Andrew M. Baker, M.D.
FINAL DIAGNOSES: 46-year-old man who became unresponsive while being restrained by law enforcement officers;
he received emergency medical care in the field and subsequently in the Hennepin HealthCare (HHC) Emergency Department, but could not be resuscitated.

I. Blunt force injuries
A. Cutaneous blunt force injuries of the forehead, face, and upper lip
B. Mucosal injuries of the lips
C. Cutaneous blunt force injuries of the shoulders, hands, elbows, and legs
D. Patterned contusions (in some areas abraded) of the wrists, consistent with restraints (handcuffs)

II. Natural diseases
A. Arteriosclerotic heart disease, multifocal, severe
B. Hypertensive heart disease
1. Cardiomegaly (540 g) with mild biventricular dilatation
2. Clinical history of hypertension
C. Left pelvic tumor (incidental, see microscopic description)

III. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column injuries, or visceral injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks negative for occult trauma

IV. Viral testing (Minnesota Department of Health, postmortem nasal swab collected 5/26/2020): positive for 2019-nCoV RNA by PCR (see ‘Comments,’ below)

V. Hemoglobin S quantitation (postmortem femoral blood, HHC Laboratory): 38% (see ‘Comments,’ below) VI. Toxicology (see attached report for full details; testing performed on antemortem blood specimens collected 5/25/20 at 9:00 p.m. at HHC and on postmortem urine)

A.Blood drug and novel psychoactive substances screens:
1. Fentanyl 11 ng/mL
2. Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL
3. 4-ANPP 0.65 ng/mL
4. Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL
5. 11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC 1.2 ng/mL; Delta-9 Carboxy THC 42 ng/mL; Delta-9 THC 2.9 ng/mL
6. Cotinine positive
7. Caffeine positive

B. Blood volatiles: negative for ethanol, methanol, isopropanol, or acetone
C. Urine drug screen: presumptive positive for cannabinoids, amphetamines, and fentanyl/metabolite
D. Urine drug screen confirmation: morphine (free) 86 ng/mL

Comments:
The finding of sickled-appearing cells in many of the autopsy tissue sections prompted the Hemoglobin S quantitation reported above.
This quantitative result is indicative of sickle cell trait. Red blood cells in individuals with sickle cell trait are known to sickle as a postmortem artifact.
The decedent’s antemortem peripheral blood smear (made from a complete blood count collected 5/25/20 at 9:00 p.m.) was reviewed by an expert HHC hematopathologist at the Medical Examiner’s request. This review found no evidence of antemortem sickling.

The decedent was known to be positive for 2019-nCoV RNA on 4/3/2020.
Since PCR positivity for 2019-nCoV RNA can persist for weeks after the onset and resolution of clinical disease, the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection.

6/1/2020 X Andrew M. Baker, M.D. Chief Medical Examiner
Signed by: Andrew M. Baker MD
In accordance with HCME policy, this report was reviewed by another board-certified forensic pathologist prior to release.

We'll just pretend there wasn't an independent autopsy done.

Why doesn't that autopsy report have a conclusion?

Have not seen it,
only the allusions to it in the "press"

did it identify-

hyoid injury,
larynx injury,
tracheal petechiae or hemorrhage,
bronchial petechiae or hemorrhage
neck muscle hemorrhage,
cutaneous marks,
neck soft tissue edema or hemorrhage,
ecchymosis,
conjunctival petechiae,
vitreous hemorrhage,
carotid injury,
jugular injury,
other visceral petechiae or hemorrhage ??

quote:

The medical examiner's autopsy and an independent autopsy done at the request of Floyd's family both ruled his death a homicide. Floyd's toxicology report revealed fentanyl in his system, however, experts agree it was not enough to be considered fatal. COVID-19 was not listed as a factor in Floyd's death, and claims that Floyd didn't have any life-threatening injuries are misleading. Floyd's lack of oxygen during his arrest resulted in brain damage and caused his heart to stop.

Link

you mean " hand picked paid experts"
do you not

btw
how many ng/ml is fatal for most adults

do you know how many ng/ml you would want in your system without experienced anesthesia personnel present?
(or even with them present?)

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
btw
how many ng/ml is fatal for most adults

do you know how many ng/ml you would want in your system without experienced anesthesia personnel present?
(or even with them present?)

Unlike some I do not pretend to be an expert in everything, although I know the precise amount of fentanyl and meth that my blood contains.

There are things I know, things I can research and gain a basic understanding of and things on which I defer to experts, like a Doctor who was Chief Medical Examiner for NYC for two years.

The bottom line is this: I doubt George Floyd would have dropped dead that day without somebody leaning on his neck for ten minutes. I doubt he would have dropped dead if the cops had cuffed him and put him in a car after two minutes of standing on his neck. I doubt he would have dropped dead if they had cuffed him, stood him up and told him he was going to get shot with a taser if he moved.

He died because the cops kept him on the ground for ten minutes standing on his neck. Him being high, him having pre-existing health conditions....none of that would have mattered if the cops hadn't kneeled on his neck causing stress to his respiratory system with that causing him to go into cardiac arrest.

This is all just revisionist Tucker Carlson bullshit designed to get him ratings and attention. And, because of a certain segment of our idiot society being susceptible to Tucker Carlson bullshit, it's working.

quote:

I do not pretend to be an expert in everything,

but you do-

and that is what we see of you here in the ARPF

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
The bottom line is this: I doubt George Floyd would have dropped dead that day without somebody leaning on his neck for ten minutes. I doubt he would have dropped dead if the cops had cuffed him and put him in a car after two minutes of standing on his neck. I doubt he would have dropped dead if they had cuffed him, stood him up and told him he was going to get shot with a taser if he moved.

He died because the cops kept him on the ground for ten minutes standing on his neck. Him being high, him having pre-existing health conditions....none of that would have mattered if the cops hadn't kneeled on his neck causing stress to his respiratory system with that causing him to go into cardiac arrest.

This is all just revisionist Tucker Carlson bullshit designed to get him ratings and attention. And, because of a certain segment of our idiot society being susceptible to Tucker Carlson bullshit, it's working.

Good post, and accurate summary of what the jury must have concluded.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
btw
how many ng/ml is fatal for most adults

do you know how many ng/ml you would want in your system without experienced anesthesia personnel present?
(or even with them present?)

Wouldn't that depend on whether the use was habitual and the body had developed tolerance to the drug?

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

I do not pretend to be an expert in everything,

but you do-

and that is what we see of you here in the ARPF

Then prove me wrong, big boy.

Find a definitive statement of fact I've made that is not accurate. Not merely in this thread, anywhere in the Forum.

I'll wait...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
The bottom line is this: I doubt George Floyd would have dropped dead that day without somebody leaning on his neck for ten minutes. I doubt he would have dropped dead if the cops had cuffed him and put him in a car after two minutes of standing on his neck. I doubt he would have dropped dead if they had cuffed him, stood him up and told him he was going to get shot with a taser if he moved.

He died because the cops kept him on the ground for ten minutes standing on his neck. Him being high, him having pre-existing health conditions....none of that would have mattered if the cops hadn't kneeled on his neck causing stress to his respiratory system with that causing him to go into cardiac arrest.

This is all just revisionist Tucker Carlson bullshit designed to get him ratings and attention. And, because of a certain segment of our idiot society being susceptible to Tucker Carlson bullshit, it's working.

Except the autopsy didn’t reveal any trauma to the neck that would indicate asphyxiation.

And they did put him in the car safely Mike. He belligerently came back out. That is when he got put on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

I do not pretend to be an expert in everything,

but you do-

and that is what we see of you here in the ARPF

Then prove me wrong, big boy.

Find a definitive statement of fact I've made that is not accurate. Not merely in this thread, anywhere in the Forum.

I'll wait...

Keep looking...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
So Lane is now disputing the verdict by a jury the cop's lawyer helped select?

On the basis of a Tucker Carlson video? I watched the video and know bullshit when I see it. Selective, biased reporting at best.

Lane, your disregard of what a jury had to say on the basis of some celebrity's video belies what you claim about your experience and expertise as a doctor and scientist. Go back to vet school!

While it is likely the best system possible…juries get it wrong not uncommonly. Most lawyers I know still sit on pins and needles for verdicts in the most cut-and-dry cases. Why? Because juries get it wrong…like with OJ.

I had disdain for that jury finding the minute they returned it. Derek Chauvin was doing his job and was sent to prison for it. A hard job. A job none of us want. None of us had to subdue a large violent man trained in fighting and high on meth and fentanyl.

The autopsy findings were equivocal…no concrete proof of asphyxiation…little to even suggest. Other plausible causes of cardiopulmonary arrest were present. The burden was not met. There is reasonable doubt as to whether Chauvin’s restraint asphyxiated Floyd.

I have to wonder if your view of Chauvin, the jury and the process would be different if it were one of your family members with a cop kneeling on their neck for 10 minutes while they complain about not being able to breathe. I would actually hope that your view would in fact be different. And at what point after Floyd passed out and was non-responsive and Chauvin continued to kneel on this neck for almost 3 minutes was he still a threat?

No trauma to the neck? So what?

Seems to me you'd only expect neck trauma if Floyd was strangled, garroted, or throttled. Why would you expect neck trauma, given the position the cop was holding him?

I'm going by my common sense again, and Dr. Butler may well come along and correct me.

It was concluded that he died of cardiopulmonary arrest secondary to mechanical asphyxiation from the restraint. It takes an airway obstruction (would see traumatic evidence) or compressive chest obstruction (didn’t happen in video) to physically cause mechanical asphyxiation.

Opioids (especially fentanyl) depress the respiratory center in the brain stem and commonly kill (>100,000 so far this year in USA) people by asphyxiation (centrally mediated asphyxiation). This is the danger of fentanyl.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
So Lane is now disputing the verdict by a jury the cop's lawyer helped select?

On the basis of a Tucker Carlson video? I watched the video and know bullshit when I see it. Selective, biased reporting at best.

Lane, your disregard of what a jury had to say on the basis of some celebrity's video belies what you claim about your experience and expertise as a doctor and scientist. Go back to vet school!

While it is likely the best system possible…juries get it wrong not uncommonly. Most lawyers I know still sit on pins and needles for verdicts in the most cut-and-dry cases. Why? Because juries get it wrong…like with OJ.

I had disdain for that jury finding the minute they returned it. Derek Chauvin was doing his job and was sent to prison for it. A hard job. A job none of us want. None of us had to subdue a large violent man trained in fighting and high on meth and fentanyl.

The autopsy findings were equivocal…no concrete proof of asphyxiation…little to even suggest. Other plausible causes of cardiopulmonary arrest were present. The burden was not met. There is reasonable doubt as to whether Chauvin’s restraint asphyxiated Floyd.

I have to wonder if your view of Chauvin, the jury and the process would be different if it were one of your family members with a cop kneeling on their neck for 10 minutes while they complain about not being able to breathe. I would actually hope that your view would in fact be different. And at what point after Floyd passed out and was non-responsive and Chauvin continued to kneel on this neck for almost 3 minutes was he still a threat?

If I had a family member who was a habitual criminal using fentanyl, meth, passing counterfeit money, and dumb enough to resist arrest by belligerently coming out of a cruiser once properly arrested and put in…

…I would think he got what he deserved! Fact!!!

If you are so sure of this Lane why don't you let me kneel on your neck for ten minutes?

Total rubbish as usual from you.

Every thing I have stated is scientific fact why don’t you refute the facts rather than making dumbass quips?

The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

Facts seem to confuse you. Fact is, a jury of Chauvin's peers DID find that it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's restraint killed Floyd. That's why Chauvin sits in prison today. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

My only opinion about Floyd is, he was criminal, he resisted arrest and died in process
Stupid is as stupid does is all that comes to my mind
Dissecting what could have, should have would have is squarely on criminal’s shoulders

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
My only opinion about Floyd is, he was criminal, he resisted arrest and died in process
Stupid is as stupid does is all that comes to my mind
Dissecting what could have, should have would have is squarely on criminal’s shoulders

Wrong. In our society a police officer is not entitled to be judge, jury and executioner.

Justice was carried out, may Chauvin rot in that cell until he takes his last breath.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Every thing I have stated is scientific fact why don’t you refute the facts rather than making dumbass quips?

The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

Somehow I had a feeling you would have no interest in my kind offer to allow you to prove yourself correct.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Every thing I have stated is scientific fact why don’t you refute the facts rather than making dumbass quips?

The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

Somehow I had a feeling you would have no interest in my kind offer to allow you to prove yourself correct.

And as usual, you bring nothing to the debate except idiocy.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Every thing I have stated is scientific fact why don’t you refute the facts rather than making dumbass quips?

The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

Somehow I had a feeling you would have no interest in my kind offer to allow you to prove yourself correct.

And as usual, you bring nothing to the debate except idiocy.

You know what Ray Wylie Hubbard would say....the problem with sarcasm is, some people just don't get it

Sarcasm comes off best from folks that commonly display rationality.

From the obtuse it can be difficult to discern.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Sarcasm come off best from folks that commonly display rationality.

From the obtuse it can be difficult to discern.

Coming from our resident expert on horses asses, I will take that as a compliment

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
My only opinion about Floyd is, he was criminal, he resisted arrest and died in process
Stupid is as stupid does is all that comes to my mind
Dissecting what could have, should have would have is squarely on criminal’s shoulders

Wrong. In our society a police officer is not entitled to be judge, jury and executioner.

Justice was carried out, may Chauvin rot in that cell until he takes his last breath.

Nobody said what you just put in your mouth and spit it out
It was unfortunate it -layer that way but again, whole thing is entirely on criminals shoulder
I also understand from your posts that you are also judge and jury and in this case biased
I would think, people don’t defend criminals but it seems some do

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ledvm:
The fact is that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s restraint killed Floyd and other reasonable expectations exist.

Facts seem to confuse you. Fact is, a jury of Chauvin's peers DID find that it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's restraint killed Floyd. That's why Chauvin sits in prison today. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts


Try to be a cop in ghettos for 24 hrs and you will change your mind 180 degrees

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
My only opinion about Floyd is, he was criminal, he resisted arrest and died in process
Stupid is as stupid does is all that comes to my mind
Dissecting what could have, should have would have is squarely on criminal’s shoulders

Wrong. In our society a police officer is not entitled to be judge, jury and executioner.

Justice was carried out, may Chauvin rot in that cell until he takes his last breath.

Nobody said what you just put in your mouth and spit it out
It was unfortunate it -layer that way but again, whole thing is entirely on criminals shoulder
I also understand from your posts that you are also judge and jury and in this case biased
I would think, people don’t defend criminals but it seems some do

Wrong again. Police have conduct standards and Chavin failed to meet them. A jury spoke and it found that he is guilty of murder. I wholeheartedly agree.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
My only opinion about Floyd is, he was criminal, he resisted arrest and died in process
Stupid is as stupid does is all that comes to my mind
Dissecting what could have, should have would have is squarely on criminal’s shoulders

Wrong. In our society a police officer is not entitled to be judge, jury and executioner.

Justice was carried out, may Chauvin rot in that cell until he takes his last breath.

Nobody said what you just put in your mouth and spit it out
It was unfortunate it -layer that way but again, whole thing is entirely on criminals shoulder
I also understand from your posts that you are also judge and jury and in this case biased
I would think, people don’t defend criminals but it seems some do

Wrong again. Police have conduct standards and Chavin failed to meet them. A jury spoke and it found that he is guilty of murder. I wholeheartedly agree.

And I disagree with you and whole process turned biased against cops as they were convicted even before the trial started
Anyway, nice try

Isn't it funny how a ten minute long video of a man crying for his mother and begging for air while the life is being squeezed out of him will create bias?

That piece of shit Chavin got what he deserved, he is no more a victim than Ashley Babbitt, the shame is that he did not get a bullet from someone in the crowd.

Note to self…

In SKB land, he’s ok with a belt fed response to a riot… as long as it’s the right side getting shot at…

As to the autopsy, you need to remember that there are two parts here.

The findings of cause of death and the autopsy.

The ME is supposed to use the totality to issue a cause of death.

The autopsy is an anatomical and biochemical examination of remains to find evidence of just how someone died.

Reading the reports, it’s pretty typical journalism (ie ignorant).

Yes, the autopsy findings found numerous things that were somewhat red herrings- like positive Covid.

They found severe cardiovascular disease- that with stress would likely kill someone (and from what I saw, Floyd was a ticking time bomb with drug use (meth) and that level of CV disease. His dropping dead at any time would not have surprised me.

Like many autopsies, they are often either inconclusive or merely supportive. Most autopsies are not able to give a definitive cause of death.

The fact that there was no bruising on his neck but there was a fair amount elsewhere does tend to show that the amount of force on Floyd’s neck was less than used elsewhere. The pressure used on his neck alone did not kill him- the totality of the event killed him. The fact he was able to beg and call out for his mother on video is supportive of that.

But by controlling him in that fashion, with severe CV disease, impaired circulation, and by not following procedure, Chauvin killed a man in his control.

So while I don’t see autopsy evidence that proves Chauvin killed Floyd, the autopsy provides evidence that what Chauvin did could kill Floyd. Totality of the situation.

Remember that carotid compression to cause someone to faint does not bruise people or leave significant damage- but usually if you try and do that, there are other marks of a struggle which makes it possible to say there was a fight, there is a body, therefore the guy was killed as part of a fight… Homicide.

Other information makes it murder, manslaughter, or self defense.

The levels of drugs in his system ARE capable of killing someone. Are they invariably fatal? No. But they could be.

While I personally think he was overcharged, and that the environment he was tried under was, shall we say, a bit biased, I do think Chauvin unlawfully killed Floyd, and the specifics are matters more of opinion- I accept the verdict, and expect he will serve a long sentence- although it’s possible that appeals will get him to serve a shorter one than he was sentenced to.

I would think some of the more medically trained folks would have noted this.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Isn't it funny how a ten minute long video of a man crying for his mother and begging for air while the life is being squeezed out of him will create bias?

That piece of shit Chavin got what he deserved, he is no more a victim than Ashley Babbitt, the shame is that he did not get a bullet from someone in the crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Note to self…

In SKB land, he’s ok with a belt fed response to a riot… as long as it’s the right side getting shot at…

Not true at all. They should have shot the BLM rioters as well, not the protestors but the ones committing violence.

I'm not sure how anybody can come away from watching that video and and see Chauvin as a piece of shit.

And when George Floyd came out of that cruiser belligerently…he should have got 220gr of lead and copper center mass.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
And when George Floyd came out of that cruiser belligerently…he should have got 220gr of lead and copper center mass.

I think it was Chavin that deserved the bullet, but hey, I'm willing to settle for his ass being locked up and calling it a day

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
And when George Floyd came out of that cruiser belligerently…he should have got 220gr of lead and copper center mass.

I think it was Chavin that deserved the bullet, but hey, I'm willing to settle for his ass being locked up and calling it a day

What’s the difference between Floyd and the rioters you think should be shot? I am anxious to hear this!

Floyd was arrested and safely put into a cruiser. He belligerently came out of that cruiser towards the officer.

He is basically a rioter at time breaking the law more and potentially harming a LEO?

Wouldn’t Chauvin have been equally as justified at double-tapping him at that instance as the rioters you want to shoot?

And I am fine with shooting the rioters.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
And when George Floyd came out of that cruiser belligerently…he should have got 220gr of lead and copper center mass.

I think it was Chavin that deserved the bullet, but hey, I'm willing to settle for his ass being locked up and calling it a day

What’s the difference between Floyd and the rioters you think should be shot? I am anxious to hear this!

Floyd was arrested and safely put into a cruiser. He belligerently came out of that cruiser towards the officer.

He is basically a rioter at time breaking the law more and potentially harming a LEO?

Wouldn’t Chauvin have been equally as justified at double-tapping him at that instance as the rioters you want to shoot?

And I am fine with shooting the rioters.

The difference is Floyd was on the ground and cuffed, fucking helpless while Chauvin very slowly, over the course of 10 minutes squeezed the life out him.

The rioters while engaging in violence present a very different level of threat to a law enforcement officer.

There was no need to kneel on Floyds neck for 10 minutes straight, he stopped resisting was begging for his life.

A huge difference that I would think even you would be able see, apparently I have overestimated your sense of perception.