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Originally posted by ledvm:
When we can't even have a factual grammatically correct conversation without the fear of being "offensive"...you know we are really gone.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
When we can't even have a factual grammatically correct conversation without the fear of being "offensive"...you know we are really gone.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

Once you gave me a good going over about how I was wrong about the Republican Party. We never called each other names and I could see your points.

As Scott said…that^^^is what is lost.

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a transgender person

~Ann

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

Once you gave me a good going over about how I was wrong about the Republican Party. We never called each other names and I could see your points.

As Scott said…that^^^is what is lost.

As much as we all like to argue and “win”, I think that most of us come here to discuss things that want to better understand. By discussing different perspectives we can better scrutinize our own beliefs.

But this “I’m offended” game reminds me of your point that “only racists go around calling people racist”(I would modify the statement to read “those who go around calling others racist, are most certainly racist themselves”).

Have you noticed that many of those who want to cry “offensive!” are the ones who have no problem calling others by offensive names like racist, fascist, homophobe, etc.?

In their mind it is ok to call you a fascist because that is “the truth”.

For some reason they won’t allow others to us the same logic when referring to a transgender person as a man dressed as a woman.

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Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

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a transgender person

Is a big LIE.

One cannot be the opposite sex no matter how much surgery they have. All they can do is pretend and that is it. These folks can go ahead and live a make-believe life but that is all it is. No one has to play along with them either despite states like Michigan making stupid laws.

This pretend and make-believe world is awful. Twenty years down the road all these children who were goaded into the trans fantasy are going to really regret their decisions. Truly sad.

I still blame a lot of parents for this. People are not 'fledging' their offspring making sure they are strong and confident adults. Too much coddling, no self determination, no skills, no manners, no life.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Re-titled thread: "Ma! They're calling me a racist again!"

It's factually correct to call a racist a racist. And it's factually correct to point out that someone has said something racially offensive, if that is so.

Why must we spare the feelings of a person who is either racist in fact or else so insensitive on the issue that their own feelings should be disregarded simply as a matter of fair play?

If you don't want to be taken for a racist, don't say racially offensive things.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Re-titled thread: "Ma! They're calling me a racist again!"

It's factually correct to call a racist a racist. And it's factually correct to point out that someone has said something racially offensive, if that is so.

Why must we spare the feelings of a person who is either racist in fact or else so insensitive on the issue that their own feelings should be disregarded simply as a matter of fair play?

If you don't want to be taken for a racist, don't say racially offensive things.

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Originally posted by Scott King:

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Re-titled thread: "Ma! They're calling me a racist again!"

It's factually correct to call a racist a racist. And it's factually correct to point out that someone has said something racially offensive, if that is so.

Why must we spare the feelings of a person who is either racist in fact or else so insensitive on the issue that their own feelings should be disregarded simply as a matter of fair play?

If you don't want to be taken for a racist, don't say racially offensive things.

I was under the impression Doc wasn't speaking about himself being offended.
Rather I took his comments to mean he's seen as offensive and the respondents are offended.

As always and most of the time, I could be wrong.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Re-titled thread: "Ma! They're calling me a racist again!"

It's factually correct to call a racist a racist. And it's factually correct to point out that someone has said something racially offensive, if that is so.

It might be factually correct to call someone a racist, but is it any less factually correct to call a transgender woman a dude?

Why must we spare the feelings of a person who is either racist in fact or else so insensitive on the issue that their own feelings should be disregarded simply as a matter of fair play?

I could care less if you spare anyone’s feelings, but I do think that it is hypocritical to cry about the “violence” of offending someone by misgendering them, then turning around and calling people offensive terms with the intent of offending them.

If you don't want to be taken for a racist, don't say racially offensive things.

What one person believes to be “racially offensive” might be non offensive to another. It’s up to the individual… Unlike biological sex which is pretty straightforward.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
To say or imply that modern black Americans ought to be grateful their ancestors were brought here as slaves is a racially insensitive, if not a racist thing to say.

Tell that to Muhammed Ali.

There. If I hurt your feelings by calling a spade a spade, too bad. You've proved you don't care about others' feelings. Why should anyone care about yours?

If you don't believe in racial insensitivity, why don't you go make that statement to a group of black people? Lane, are you there? What's that you say? You wouldn't do that?

Then you are either more racially sensitive or less brave than you pretend.

If I were in the right situation…off course I would make that argument…it is logical and factual.

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Hey Roland,

I’m heading out on a limb, knowing that this might offend you, but I was wondering about you’re challenging me to pose the question to a group of black people. You mentioned that I might be less brave than I pretend.

Were you playing with the notion that African Americans are prone to violence and hostility? Why else would you imply that I would have to be “brave”? Trust me, a lot of people are going to find that type of racism offensive. I find it offensive and untrue, but I support your right to say it.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

If you don't believe in racial insensitivity, why don't you go make that statement to a group of black people? Lane, are you there? What's that you say? You wouldn't do that?

Then you are either more racially sensitive or less brave than you pretend.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
To say or imply that modern black Americans ought to be grateful their ancestors were brought here as slaves is a racially insensitive, if not a racist thing to say.

There. If I hurt your feelings by calling a spade a spade, too bad. You've proved you don't care about others' feelings. Why should anyone care about yours?

If you don't believe in racial insensitivity, why don't you go make that statement to a group of black people? Lane, are you there? What's that you say? You wouldn't do that?

Then you are either more racially sensitive or less brave than you pretend.

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Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Originally posted by Saeed:


Instead of being grateful that she lives in America, she is demanding to be paid to live there!

This is a question that I have tried to look at from different perspectives: is American citizenship reparations enough?

The transatlantic slave trade was horrific. I wonder how many African Americans would erase the transatlantic slave trade from history, knowing that doing so would mean that their family line never left Africa?

Who is in a more enviable position: the American whose ancestors who were brought here as slaves, or the African whose ancestors were not trafficked to the Americans?

Do you have any idea how offensive this argument is to African-Americans? You're telling them that they should be grateful that their ancestors were enslaved. Ripped away from their loved ones, put in the holds of stinking ships for weeks on end. Sold like chattel at market upon arrival. Forced to work like dogs for no wages. Raped by their owners.

It's not a position that ought to be advocated.

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Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
That said, taking the position that reparations shouldn't be paid because African-Americans should be grateful that they were enslaved because they now get to live in America is offensive. The fact that some atrocity eventually resulted in some positive event, condition or occurrence doesn't excuse or validate the atrocity.

Ah yes, the “toxic truth” the bane of liberals everywhere…

If you reread what I wrote, you will see that I was asking a question, not making an argument. I never said that anyone should be grateful that their ancestors were the question still stands, so I will ask you Mike Mitchel: If you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today?

Obviously this is hypothetical, as slavery can’t be erased. And it should also be obvious that none of this makes the institution of slavery any less horrific for the people who were enslaved.

Toxic though it is, the fact remains that to some extent, the descendants of American slaves benefited from slavery. And keep in mind that, for those who were “lucky” enough to be spared by the slave trade and left in Africa, the past couple of hundred years hasn’t been a walk in the part. Iconically, during that period many Africans were enslaved in Africa. Some are still enslaved to this day.

Odd how the reparations crew never mentions the Africans who are still enslaved today…

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Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
To say or imply that modern black Americans ought to be grateful their ancestors were brought here as slaves is a racially insensitive, if not a racist thing to say.

There. If I hurt your feelings by calling a spade a spade, too bad. You've proved you don't care about others' feelings. Why should anyone care about yours?

If you don't believe in racial insensitivity, why don't you go make that statement to a group of black people? Lane, are you there? What's that you say? You wouldn't do that?

Then you are either more racially sensitive or less brave than you pretend.

Since Mike Mitchell dodged my question last time, I’ll give you a second chance to answer it.

BTW, if you say zero, then answering it isn’t racist.

I put the question in bold.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Originally posted by Saeed:


Instead of being grateful that she lives in America, she is demanding to be paid to live there!

This is a question that I have tried to look at from different perspectives: is American citizenship reparations enough?

The transatlantic slave trade was horrific. I wonder how many African Americans would erase the transatlantic slave trade from history, knowing that doing so would mean that their family line never left Africa?

Who is in a more enviable position: the American whose ancestors who were brought here as slaves, or the African whose ancestors were not trafficked to the Americans?

Do you have any idea how offensive this argument is to African-Americans? You're telling them that they should be grateful that their ancestors were enslaved. Ripped away from their loved ones, put in the holds of stinking ships for weeks on end. Sold like chattel at market upon arrival. Forced to work like dogs for no wages. Raped by their owners.

It's not a position that ought to be advocated.

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Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
That said, taking the position that reparations shouldn't be paid because African-Americans should be grateful that they were enslaved because they now get to live in America is offensive. The fact that some atrocity eventually resulted in some positive event, condition or occurrence doesn't excuse or validate the atrocity.

Ah yes, the “toxic truth” the bane of liberals everywhere…

If you reread what I wrote, you will see that I was asking a question, not making an argument. I never said that anyone should be grateful that their ancestors were the question still stands, so I will ask you Mike Mitchel: If you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today?

Obviously this is hypothetical, as slavery can’t be erased. And it should also be obvious that none of this makes the institution of slavery any less horrific for the people who were enslaved.

Toxic though it is, the fact remains that to some extent, the descendants of American slaves benefited from slavery. And keep in mind that, for those who were “lucky” enough to be spared by the slave trade and left in Africa, the past couple of hundred years hasn’t been a walk in the part. Iconically, during that period many Africans were enslaved in Africa. Some are still enslaved to this day.

Odd how the reparations crew never mentions the Africans who are still enslaved today…

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Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

I didn't dodge your question, you just need to start getting used to the idea that your efforts to control any discussion via vacuous cross-examination isn't going to work with me.

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I didn't dodge your question, you just need to start getting used to the idea that your efforts to control any discussion via vacuous cross-examination isn't going to work with me.

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Originally posted by theback40:
This is a debate/opinion forum. What is wrong with asking tough questions of someone else?
I myself have no idea how blacks or Jews would respond if asked. A mixed bag of replies is my guess.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
This is a debate/opinion forum. What is wrong with asking tough questions of someone else?
I myself have no idea how blacks or Jews would respond if asked. A mixed bag of replies is my guess.

Ah, you've found the nub. The question isn't whether I or someone else here would be offended. It's whether the group we're talking about would be offended.

My guess differs from yours. My guess is most blacks would be offended by Mr. Brown's words.

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If you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today?

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If you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today?

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
My point all along has been that it's racially insensitive, if not racist, to ask your question. But it keeps whiffing over your head. Now you're chasing imaginary straw men.

Nope, I 100% agree that some will find it racist/insensitive/offensive. Be that as it may, I asked it anyway as I believe it to be a legitimate question and I am interested in hearing how others, including you, would answer it.

The literal answer to your question isn't as important as the fact that you can't ask the question of black people without giving offense. Or maybe, since some whites' ancestors brought them here as slaves, they should be grateful to modern whites for whatever crumbs we throw them.

If you can't ask the question of a black audience, why ask it on a forum of mostly white people?

Now THAT is a loaded question. Let me topple your false premise: I asked my daughter that same question this morning. She is black and 14 years old. She said that it is an interesting question and she said that she would also like to know how others would wrestle with it. She didn’t understand why you found it so offensive. I also asked a friend who has a bit of African (creole) blood. She wasn’t offended either.

Unlike some, I'll hazard a guess how black people might respond to your question:

"We'd rather our ancestors had come here as free people and been afforded all the rights and privileges of others."

So you believe that they would dodge the question by introducing a fantasy premise that rests on the notion that voluntary migration to the Americas has historically been an option for African? I would think that they would realize that the question itself addressed the unlikelihood of such with

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If you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africatoday?

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f you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today

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Originally posted by Schrodinger:
JB, I’ll bite.

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f you had to guess, what percentage of African Americans would elect to erase slavery from the history of the US, knowing that it would likely mean that their family line would still be in Africa today

1. What a stupid fucking question. A stupid hypothetical that is a complete fantasy. You think you have your gotcha moment.


No “gotcha moment” with you Schrödinger. The gotcha would have come if either MM or Roland had answered, which they both refused to do because they recognized that they had painted themselves into a corner. Answering the question would have exposed that. Refusing to answer the question did the same.

2. Americans, black, white, yellow for the most part enjoy the things that America provides. The injured parties of the past are dead, so of course they would choose the present.

Thank you for the honest answer. I would guess that your guess is fairly close to “correct”, or it at least matched my assumptions.

3. How would anybody know the percentages? Ask? You think you would get straight answers?

I guess you think that if a grater percentage answered that they wouldn’t erase slavery, this proves what? Tell us bucket mouth what this proves.

No idea on percentages, hence I asked for a “guess”.

The percentages themselves don’t mean much. The question was more about how honest MM and Roland can be in admitting an uncomfortable truth to themselves. But as you can see, they “can’t handle the truth.”.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Maybe, Mr. Browne, you should ask your logical question to some black people. Be sure to report back to us on the results.

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Hey Roland,

I’m heading out on a limb, knowing that this might offend you, but I was wondering about you’re challenging me to pose the question to a group of black people. You mentioned that I might be less brave than I pretend.

Were you playing with the notion that African Americans are prone to violence and hostility? Why else would you imply that I would have to be “brave”? Trust me, a lot of people are going to find that type of racism offensive. I find it offensive and untrue, but I support your right to say it.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

If you don't believe in racial insensitivity, why don't you go make that statement to a group of black people? Lane, are you there? What's that you say? You wouldn't do that?

Then you are either more racially sensitive or less brave than you pretend.

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I had begun to question your comprehension when you misunderstood my question, but others were able to understand and answer…