quote:

Originally posted by nute:
Frankly, if a NATO country was attacked by Russia next week, I’m only 50/50 on Trump honoring the US commitment to the alliance. I’m not sure about Hungry either, but the rest of the European allies and Canada I’m 100% certain would step up.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Well, the disgust from Sweden about the US has some validity… but that from the #1 Nazi trading partner (iron/nickel during WWII)?

I’m disgusted with Trump’s kowtowing to Russia, but face it, until Putin is gone, the war in Ukraine will continue, unless Ukraine makes some concessions. Even at this point I am unwilling to countenance US troops in Ukraine. I know that’s not the question here, but that’s probably the only way to get that war resolved if Ukrainian territorial integrity with prewar borders is going to happen.

European demands for globalism have resulted in a bit of a pushback to their leaders and policies in the US. How long did you expect us to wearily foot the bill while you admit you are not carrying your share… but not making any effort to change that?

I’m in agreement that appeasing Putin is not a good idea.

But that Europe has been lecturing us on proper behavior is certainly part of why you are seeing this political swing in the US. I agree it’s cutting our nose off to spite our face, but still.

Your leadership has shown no willingness to help contain China.

Neither side is blameless here, and the strong US thread of isolationism is something that is growing as economic times get worse relatively here.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Well, the disgust from Sweden about the US has some validity… but that from the #1 Nazi trading partner (iron/nickel during WWII)?

I’m disgusted with Trump’s kowtowing to Russia, but face it, until Putin is gone, the war in Ukraine will continue, unless Ukraine makes some concessions. Even at this point I am unwilling to countenance US troops in Ukraine. I know that’s not the question here, but that’s probably the only way to get that war resolved if Ukrainian territorial integrity with prewar borders is going to happen.

European demands for globalism have resulted in a bit of a pushback to their leaders and policies in the US. How long did you expect us to wearily foot the bill while you admit you are not carrying your share… but not making any effort to change that?

I’m in agreement that appeasing Putin is not a good idea.

But that Europe has been lecturing us on proper behavior is certainly part of why you are seeing this political swing in the US. I agree it’s cutting our nose off to spite our face, but still.

Your leadership has shown no willingness to help contain China.

Neither side is blameless here, and the strong US thread of isolationism is something that is growing as economic times get worse relatively here.

In 2014 only the US, UK and Greece met the 2% NATO GDP guideline. Sweden and Finland were not NATO members at that time.

Last year 23 countries exceeded the guideline as military spending has been rising year on year. Two now spend a larger proportion of GDP than the US.

NATO guidelines are also that at least 20% of expenditure is on equipment. Only 2 countries are below this for 2024.

Putin has focused EU minds on defence.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

Personally, I cannot see the US not getting involved if Article 5 is invoked by a member of NATO.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

And HerrBerg I think you are mistaken. I really doubt that France or the UK would do everything they could to level Kaliningrad or St. Petersburg... they are nuclear armed nations, and I doubt they would launch without nuclear weapons being used first by the Russians.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Not sure where you got those numbers- the ones I could find (from the world bank) are 2023.

Of the original members, Denmark, France, The UK, and the US meet goals- and France is not committed to military integration with NATO.

Add in the othe pre-fall of the USSR nations and you add in Greece as a meeting nation.

So Western Europe is not meeting requirements. Who is Trump voicing comments at? Western Europe.

Yes, Poland is meeting requirements by quite a bit. Who is the other nation exceeding the US? Again, I am only seeing 2023 data available. Of the member nations at that time, 10 of 32 were meeting goal percentages... including the US. One of the founding members was even sub 1% spending. (Luxembourg)

Personally, I cannot see the US not getting involved if Article 5 is invoked by a member of NATO.

And HerrBerg I think you are mistaken. I really doubt that France or the UK would do everything they could to level Kaliningrad or St. Petersburg... they are nuclear armed nations, and I doubt they would launch without nuclear weapons being used first by the Russians.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Well, the disgust from Sweden about the US has some validity… but that from the #1 Nazi trading partner (iron/nickel during WWII)?

I’m disgusted with Trump’s kowtowing to Russia, but face it, until Putin is gone, the war in Ukraine will continue, unless Ukraine makes some concessions. Even at this point I am unwilling to countenance US troops in Ukraine. I know that’s not the question here, but that’s probably the only way to get that war resolved if Ukrainian territorial integrity with prewar borders is going to happen.

European demands for globalism have resulted in a bit of a pushback to their leaders and policies in the US. How long did you expect us to wearily foot the bill while you admit you are not carrying your share… but not making any effort to change that?

I’m in agreement that appeasing Putin is not a good idea.

But that Europe has been lecturing us on proper behavior is certainly part of why you are seeing this political swing in the US. I agree it’s cutting our nose off to spite our face, but still.

Your leadership has shown no willingness to help contain China.

Neither side is blameless here, and the strong US thread of isolationism is something that is growing as economic times get worse relatively here.

In 2014 only the US, UK and Greece met the 2% NATO GDP guideline. Sweden and Finland were not NATO members at that time.

Last year 23 countries exceeded the guideline as military spending has been rising year on year. Two now spend a larger proportion of GDP than the US.

NATO guidelines are also that at least 20% of expenditure is on equipment. Only 2 countries are below this for 2024.

Putin has focused EU minds on defence.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I didn’t know that most of the participants of the AR Political Forum were clairvoyant. It seems that lots of folks knew what the results of elections were going to be, what precautions would stop Covid transmission and that Joe Biden would never pardon his son.
Now we know what the U.S. will do if Russia invaded Sweden, the final results of U.S. tariff negotiations, that the laptop from hell wasn’t anything but Russian misinformation and the results of peace negotiations re: Ukraine.

Y’all are some very impressive people.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I didn’t know that most of the participants of the AR Political Forum were clairvoyant. It seems that lots of folks knew what the results of elections were going to be, what precautions would stop Covid transmission, that 51 “spooks” knew the laptop from hell wasn’t real and that Joe Biden would never pardon his son.
Now we know what the U.S. will do if Russia invaded Sweden, the final results of U.S. tariff negotiations and the results of peace negotiations re: Ukraine.

Y’all are some very impressive people. Yogi didn’t know shit about opera…. But you sure think you do

quote:

As for myself, I’ll wait a bit to see if Trump is successful in limiting the damage Obama and Biden’s permission to invade caused.

quote:

Manipulation by flattery is a deadly tactic with a demagogue.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

As for myself, I’ll wait a bit to see if Trump is successful in limiting the damage Obama and Biden’s permission to invade caused.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I didn’t know that most of the participants of the AR Political Forum were clairvoyant. It seems that lots of folks knew what the results of elections were going to be, what precautions would stop Covid transmission, that 51 “spooks” knew the laptop from hell wasn’t real and that Joe Biden would never pardon his son.
Now we know what the U.S. will do if Russia invaded Sweden, the final results of U.S. tariff negotiations and the results of peace negotiations re: Ukraine.

Y’all are some very impressive people. Yogi didn’t know shit about opera…. But you sure think you do