quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Is it likely the airstrikes would not have happened if Hamas has released all of the hostages? Or, have many of the remaining hostages been killed already, and Hamas would just as soon not own up to that? I think Israel goes a little far at times, but honestly, should not groups like Hamas be well aware of this by now? I think, if Israel says, "Release the hostages or we'll bomb the shit out of you", you can take their word for it. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Medved... tell me again how wwii was won?

You do understand that HAMAS builds military "bases" within civilians structures, right? Rocket launcher in playgrounds and hospitals, tunnels under schools. And then fights from them. The tactic is called human shields and agiprop

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Is it likely the airstrikes would not have happened if Hamas has released all of the hostages? Or, have many of the remaining hostages been killed already, and Hamas would just as soon not own up to that? I think Israel goes a little far at times, but honestly, should not groups like Hamas be well aware of this by now? I think, if Israel says, "Release the hostages or we'll bomb the shit out of you", you can take their word for it. Regards, Bill

the problem is aiming civilians ... nobody will cry for any terrorists killed but that is not what is happening. mass destruction of civilians will never work on the long run and israel has lost the support of western population and now rely on the western far right which make non sense if you look what the far right did in europe in the past to the jews...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Medved... tell me again how wwii was won?

You do understand that HAMAS builds military "bases" within civilians structures, right? Rocket launcher in playgrounds and hospitals, tunnels under schools. And then fights from them. The tactic is called human shields and agiprop

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Is it likely the airstrikes would not have happened if Hamas has released all of the hostages? Or, have many of the remaining hostages been killed already, and Hamas would just as soon not own up to that? I think Israel goes a little far at times, but honestly, should not groups like Hamas be well aware of this by now? I think, if Israel says, "Release the hostages or we'll bomb the shit out of you", you can take their word for it. Regards, Bill

the problem is aiming civilians ... nobody will cry for any terrorists killed but that is not what is happening. mass destruction of civilians will never work on the long run and israel has lost the support of western population and now rely on the western far right which make non sense if you look what the far right did in europe in the past to the jews...

The far right in America is dominated by Christian Evanglists, who believe that the Jews are the favored people of God. Therefore they can do no wrong. Most of the Americans who believe such are not Jews themselves.

It doesn't make sense to me to believe in a god that favors some other people over yours. Most adherents to one religion or another believe that God favors their own group. In the long and varied history of religions worldwide, some American Christians are the first and only of their kind.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I will admit that in my mind the Palestinians have committed and continue to commit acts of terrorism and that the mainstream populace doesn’t seem to be interested in stopping it, so I tend to feel the Israelis are justified in their military responses… even if I also acknowledge that the Israelis have behaved poorly on many occasions.

The refusal to admit the western press is just logical given what has happened with unfettered press access to all western world military actions.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Wow! That's a stretch even for you......

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
Q: When is a holocaust not a holocaust?

A: (1) When the Jews do it.
(2) When Donald Trump wants the beachfront.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
But, again, knowing Irael's tendency to answer force with overwhelming force, why would Hamas think it is a good idea to stir them up? Slow learners? Having been shown that the human shield thing doesn't work against Israel, wouldn't you think they would catch on? Nowadays, everyone can get all the info they need on their cell phone. They are not operating in a vacuum.
Having said this, there is no doubt, if a treaty is signed, Israel will have to be held to it. They will ignore one if given any opportunity. Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I will admit that in my mind the Palestinians have committed and continue to commit acts of terrorism and that the mainstream populace doesn’t seem to be interested in stopping it, so I tend to feel the Israelis are justified in their military responses… even if I also acknowledge that the Israelis have behaved poorly on many occasions.

The refusal to admit the western press is just logical given what has happened with unfettered press access to all western world military actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone...36d92690e9a2a8&ei=85

Elon Musk said 'The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy.' Here's the full quote
Story by Caroline Wazer • 1d • 3 min read

Think about that...

What he's saying is that Jesus had too much empathy, that the ancient Greek philosophers had too much empathy, that Jefferson and Locke with their Social Contract ideas and the Founders had too much empathy, and liberalism has too much empathy.

What about the notion that morphed conservatives and Muslim fundamentalists have something in common, namely too little empathy.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:


So freedom of speech only counts if it works in your favour? Whatever the past issues with having the press present in times of conflict the pros outweigh the cons by a huge margin. Without them there we only have the word of either Hamas or the IDF.


We’re 400 people killed in the latest IDF action, were Hamas hiding amongst them … how do we know.

Of course the thought that Hamas might be hiding in amongst civilians makes any and all deaths of civilians fine for many here, and all the while we don’t know literally anything can be justified with “ but Hamas blah blah human shield”.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I will admit that in my mind the Palestinians have committed and continue to commit acts of terrorism and that the mainstream populace doesn’t seem to be interested in stopping it, so I tend to feel the Israelis are justified in their military responses… even if I also acknowledge that the Israelis have behaved poorly on many occasions.

The refusal to admit the western press is just logical given what has happened with unfettered press access to all western world military actions.

So freedom of speech only counts if it works in your favour? Whatever the past issues with having the press present in times of conflict the pros outweigh the cons by a huge margin. Without them there we only have the word of either Hamas or the IDF.


We’re 400 people killed in the latest IDF action, were Hamas hiding amongst them … how do we know.

Of course the thought that Hamas might be hiding in amongst civilians makes any and all deaths of civilians fine for many here, and all the while we don’t know literally anything can be justified with “ but Hamas blah blah human shield”.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t know that allowing the press access and trying to protect them from getting shot if they are in a combat zone is really freedom of the press.

Classically freedom of the press is not censoring what is published.

In WWII the western nations did extensively censor the press and made it stick. We won that war. Since then we have had more and more unfettered access to war zones and we have lost multiple wars by our inability to politically remain resolute.

Note that the UK heavily censored their press in the falklands and that was their last military win as well.

I agree that censorship has issues and that freedom of the press is necessary for government to work well.

The IDF isn’t censoring what is being said… they refuse to assist or allow journalists into the conflict zone officially or offer them protection. Given what as happened historically (Hamas using journos as cover) I can’t blame them.

Blaming them or seeing logic for why they are doing it is quite different than agreeing that freedom of the press is bad.

One thing to think on… in Israel, pretty much everyone is in the military in the right age group. I think the Israeli citizens have a pretty good idea what kind of violence they are committing.

Israel’s acts are more stopping the western press from putting collateral damage on live TV and getting foreign indignation stopping their war from being prosecuted as they see appropriate.

No way there will not be public media coverage of the results after the fact. If they commit war crimes, they will have to answer for it… but after the war.

My comment is that since the Palestinians have chosen to fight by using terrorism and the populace hasn’t renounced it, I find it hard to get much sympathy for them.

That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that if you produce evidence that individual Israelis commit war crimes I cannot see and agree with it, but rather that I give the state of Israel a bit of benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I do think the evidence of war crimes will come out after the fact if they occur… but hitting a bunker isn’t a war crime, and keeping journalists out isn’t a war crime in my mind.

Do I believe that the Gaza area needs to be rebuilt and demilitarized? Yes.

Do I think it should be governed by the Israelis and the Palestinians living there permanently relocated? No.

Build a 5 star resort and then turn the deed over to the folks who lived there once it is made. They will have a thriving business that will not be involved in terror, and there will not be a concrete bunker under it hiding rockets to be shot at Israel.

Trump wanting to gain it or control it is silly and wrong, but I can certainly agree that the locals need to be away while they reconstruct it if you want to make sure it’s not built as a hidden fortress.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I will admit that in my mind the Palestinians have committed and continue to commit acts of terrorism and that the mainstream populace doesn’t seem to be interested in stopping it, so I tend to feel the Israelis are justified in their military responses… even if I also acknowledge that the Israelis have behaved poorly on many occasions.

The refusal to admit the western press is just logical given what has happened with unfettered press access to all western world military actions.

So freedom of speech only counts if it works in your favour? Whatever the past issues with having the press present in times of conflict the pros outweigh the cons by a huge margin. Without them there we only have the word of either Hamas or the IDF.


We’re 400 people killed in the latest IDF action, were Hamas hiding amongst them … how do we know.

Of course the thought that Hamas might be hiding in amongst civilians makes any and all deaths of civilians fine for many here, and all the while we don’t know literally anything can be justified with “ but Hamas blah blah human shield”.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t know that allowing the press access and trying to protect them from getting shot if they are in a combat zone is really freedom of the press.

Classically freedom of the press is not censoring what is published.

In WWII the western nations did extensively censor the press and made it stick. We won that war. Since then we have had more and more unfettered access to war zones and we have lost multiple wars by our inability to politically remain resolute.

Note that the UK heavily censored their press in the falklands and that was their last military win as well.

I agree that censorship has issues and that freedom of the press is necessary for government to work well.

The IDF isn’t censoring what is being said… they refuse to assist or allow journalists into the conflict zone officially or offer them protection. Given what as happened historically (Hamas using journos as cover) I can’t blame them.

Blaming them or seeing logic for why they are doing it is quite different than agreeing that freedom of the press is bad.

One thing to think on… in Israel, pretty much everyone is in the military in the right age group. I think the Israeli citizens have a pretty good idea what kind of violence they are committing.

Israel’s acts are more stopping the western press from putting collateral damage on live TV and getting foreign indignation stopping their war from being prosecuted as they see appropriate.

No way there will not be public media coverage of the results after the fact. If they commit war crimes, they will have to answer for it… but after the war.

My comment is that since the Palestinians have chosen to fight by using terrorism and the populace hasn’t renounced it, I find it hard to get much sympathy for them.

That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that if you produce evidence that individual Israelis commit war crimes I cannot see and agree with it, but rather that I give the state of Israel a bit of benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I do think the evidence of war crimes will come out after the fact if they occur… but hitting a bunker isn’t a war crime, and keeping journalists out isn’t a war crime in my mind.

Do I believe that the Gaza area needs to be rebuilt and demilitarized? Yes.

Do I think it should be governed by the Israelis and the Palestinians living there permanently relocated? No.

Build a 5 star resort and then turn the deed over to the folks who lived there once it is made. They will have a thriving business that will not be involved in terror, and there will not be a concrete bunker under it hiding rockets to be shot at Israel.

Trump wanting to gain it or control it is silly and wrong, but I can certainly agree that the locals need to be away while they reconstruct it if you want to make sure it’s not built as a hidden fortress.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I will admit that in my mind the Palestinians have committed and continue to commit acts of terrorism and that the mainstream populace doesn’t seem to be interested in stopping it, so I tend to feel the Israelis are justified in their military responses… even if I also acknowledge that the Israelis have behaved poorly on many occasions.

The refusal to admit the western press is just logical given what has happened with unfettered press access to all western world military actions.

So freedom of speech only counts if it works in your favour? Whatever the past issues with having the press present in times of conflict the pros outweigh the cons by a huge margin. Without them there we only have the word of either Hamas or the IDF.


We’re 400 people killed in the latest IDF action, were Hamas hiding amongst them … how do we know.

Of course the thought that Hamas might be hiding in amongst civilians makes any and all deaths of civilians fine for many here, and all the while we don’t know literally anything can be justified with “ but Hamas blah blah human shield”.

Freedom of the press is censoring what is published - but that by extension includes physicaly not letting the press see what is there to publish on it to. If you dont let them into the conflict zone they cannot report on what is going on.

If they can't report on the actions (of both sides) your comments about war crimes cannot apply - if all you have is Hamas on one side and the IDF on the other with no evidence one way or the other no one will be held to account.

Not reporting on collateral damage is the same as pretending it didn't happen. In our involvement in the Middle East quite rightly the west took great care to try to minimise collateral damage (Im sure Saeed will chime in to the country in the next 5 seconds) because they knew that the world may see what happens on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
But, again, knowing Irael's tendency to answer force with overwhelming force, why would Hamas think it is a good idea to stir them up? Slow learners? Having been shown that the human shield thing doesn't work against Israel, wouldn't you think they would catch on? Nowadays, everyone can get all the info they need on their cell phone. They are not operating in a vacuum.
Having said this, there is no doubt, if a treaty is signed, Israel will have to be held to it. They will ignore one if given any opportunity. Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe we should stop selling bombs. Make people do what they have to do, but see it plain with their own eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
But, again, knowing Irael's tendency to answer force with overwhelming force, why would Hamas think it is a good idea to stir them up? Slow learners? Having been shown that the human shield thing doesn't work against Israel, wouldn't you think they would catch on? Nowadays, everyone can get all the info they need on their cell phone. They are not operating in a vacuum.
Having said this, there is no doubt, if a treaty is signed, Israel will have to be held to it. They will ignore one if given any opportunity. Bill.

It wasn’t Hamas who started it.

November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe we should stop selling bombs. Make people do what they have to do, but see it plain with their own eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe we should stop selling bombs. Make people do what they have to do, but see it plain with their own eyes.

As I said elsewhere, we have armed the globe with sub or just less than superpower armaments and now we face them no matter which way we turn.

We are way over due to stop participating in the global arms trade.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe we should stop selling bombs. Make people do what they have to do, but see it plain with their own eyes.

As I said elsewhere, we have armed the globe with sub or just less than superpower armaments and now we face them no matter which way we turn.

We are way over due to stop participating in the global arms trade.

politically and geopolotically make sense but on the economic side that will be very hard to swallow ...

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe we should stop selling bombs. Make people do what they have to do, but see it plain with their own eyes.

As I said elsewhere, we have armed the globe with sub or just less than superpower armaments and now we face them no matter which way we turn.

We are way over due to stop participating in the global arms trade.

politically and geopolotically make sense but on the economic side that will be very hard to swallow ...

I don't mean this to sound smartass at all, I think we can come up with something else to manufacture.

"Swords to plowshares"?

Japan and other powerhouses build economy automobiles and other transportation the sell around the globe.

Honestly, we could build civilian use tractors , airplanes, boats and ships, buildings and bridges that have a whole lot better purpose in Botswana or Pakistan than our rifles and bombs do.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
But, again, knowing Irael's tendency to answer force with overwhelming force, why would Hamas think it is a good idea to stir them up? Slow learners? Having been shown that the human shield thing doesn't work against Israel, wouldn't you think they would catch on? Nowadays, everyone can get all the info they need on their cell phone. They are not operating in a vacuum.
Having said this, there is no doubt, if a treaty is signed, Israel will have to be held to it. They will ignore one if given any opportunity. Bill.

It wasn’t Hamas who started it.

November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

Somehow I think that "...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..." has been neglected.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

HOW DARE YOU STAND UP AND DEFEND YOURSELF!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

HOW DARE YOU STAND UP AND DEFEND YOURSELF!

By raping and murdering women and children.