I am not talking about IPOs or internet companies going bust. I am talking about the actual internet. The ideas, the concepts, the technology. Which I would bet most of you guys dismissed as silly nerd stuff that would fizzle out.

If you want to look at everything through traditional lenses, then go for it. See you on the other side.

As a financial transaction tool, blockchain has its place. As an investment, not so much.

And if you want to see your tax preparer go into spasms, tell him that you want to claim your blockchain losses on your taxes.

quote:

Originally posted by bobby7321:
I am not talking about IPOs or internet companies going bust. I am talking about the actual internet. The ideas, the concepts, the technology. Which I would bet most of you guys dismissed as silly nerd stuff that would fizzle out.

If you want to look at everything through traditional lenses, then go for it. See you on the other side.

If the other side is not losing money I am all for it.

Mike

You will never get the "old timers" to get real advances in technology. It isn't in their blood or familiar or what we have always done. That is the world they live in.

Just like, "these new quadroped automobiles will never work or catch on. They are loud, take special fuel, take better roads, etc." Thank goodness Henry Ford didn't think that way. True innovation requires FORWARD thinking, not what we are used to today or what happened in the past. The Modal A was a stepping stone, like some of the virtual currency. That is all. How many car companies have come and gone? Not everyone makes it.

I used to work for Bell Labe years ago. We had regular scientists tell us almost daily that it was IMPOSSIBLE to get more than 2400 baud over copper, and never more than that, EVER. We just politely listened and walked back into the fiber cryo lab and went on about our business.

Everyone takes it for granted that physical money will go away in most of our lifetimes, but very few realize that there may be viable alternatives to the "Government" way of credit cards and debit cards. Again, the "Government" way is what we know and what our past is.

As someone said way above, can you ever imagine a taxi company that never owned a car? Someone was forward thinking, not backward.

Rant over.

"Physical money will go away in our lifetimes"....that's a buncha happy horseshit.

I think a few of you have been reading too much sci-fi.

I don't know, but there are already places around here that do not take physical money, and it is growing. For example, my health insurance company will not allow payment in any other terms than credit card or bank draft. I can't walk into Blue Cross and pay with cash, can you? (Thank you Obamacare, but that is a different rant) We have a few McDonalds here that is card only.


Can you get your Social Security in cash or check? How about your tax return?

Who is full of shit? Some people just live in backwater places. I get it. My place in Mo is in a backwoods place where the local restaurant takes nothing but cash. Not that way in most of the world. Why all of a sudden there is Applepay and Androidpay and Samsungpay? Wake up.

Big difference between technology and payment systems based on fiat money backed by governments/nation states backed with guns dogs and tanks and ships and mechanisms of violence/power

And

Crypto currencies backed by faith in Algo and assumption of power supply in western China.

Mike

I can easily foresee, and believe it will happen, a cashless society. People will use what amounts to debit cards that "know" the maximum amount in the account. In Texas, and likely all over the US, food stamps are now on the same basis, people get a card to buy whatever their food stamp allowance is for that month.

Easily accomplished, government gives citizens a limited time to convert their cash to or into a bank account. After time expires, cash would be worthless. Basically same thing happened in Europe when various countries switched from their national currency to Euros.

I will leave you with a happy thought - we are one EMP away from being back in the stone age.

Hang on to some of your hard currency...

Money may go away but the mean of payment will find a way to "float". Ever see a guy in the supermarket with 2 shopping carts full of food and a WIC card.

The very fact that the major players/backers of bitcoin and other crypto currencies are Chinese tells me all I need to know about the safety of investing in them.....

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
The very fact that the major players/backers of bitcoin and other crypto currencies are Chinese tells me all I need to know about the safety of investing in them.....

While Chinese have a reputation as, shall we say, adventurous investors, anyone who thinks they are stupid is flat wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
I will leave you with a happy thought - we are one EMP away from being back in the stone age.

Hang on to some of your hard currency...

Hard currency and useful tools to make a simple living.

There are segments of society now that trade boxes of Tide and cases of Coke, when they are out of money.
I have to wonder what else we'll use if the electronic systems are down for awhile.

I never said the Chinese were stupid- but I wouldn’t want to be invested in a market they essentially control. Hot of the presses for those who think bitcoin is a safe investment.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news...ge-halts-withdrawals

The main point bitcoin has proved is that a non hackable algo has been developed.

There is a $100 bill plus asset value that hangs as a price to would be hackers.

The question is what happens if it is every hacked.

The other issue is that the computational backbone of bitcoin is primarily in a couple of provinces in China. So one has geographic natural disaster and Chinese government risk.

counterfeit currencies are most perfectly created by other nation states with printing presses.

Bitcoin is tough to hack but not impossible. Unlike fiat money when counterfipeited there will be a total collapse of bitcoin.

Regardless of valuation I would not bet on a algorithm which has no state backing.

Mike

Non hackable.... Now that's funny.

But why bother hacking when it is so much easier to manipulate?

Hackers just stole $530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange yesterday.

ooops

Little Rocketman just bought himself another Iranian sparkler.

In the news in the UK armed robbers broke into a house, and forced the owner to sign off his Bircoin ownership to them!

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Hackers just stole $530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange yesterday.

That’s impossible- the pundits here have already told us that it is the wave of the future and the next sliced bread.See theBloomberg link I posted above. I think it is the same story.

quote:

$530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange

Two points...
First, the article I read, it wasn't Bitcoin it was NEM(another crypto-currency) that was stolen from the Japanese Exchange.
Second it wasn't the blockchain of the coin that was hacked it was the EXCHANGE that was hacked.

This isn't anything new or different from the real world.

quote:

The threat of exchanges being hacked, though, is very real. More than half of the 46 exchanges surveyed by the International Organization of Securities Commissions and the World Federation of Exchanges reported suffering a cyberattack in 2012, according to a working paper released the following year. Exchanges in the U.S. were 67% more likely to have reported experiencing an attack than those based elsewhere

https://www.marketwatch.com/st...o-hackers-2015-07-31

Last September the SEC revealed that they had been hacked and the information was likely used for insider trading. All of the major stock exchanges including the NYSE have been under nearly constant attack from hacker for years...Hackers like big targets, some for money , some for infamy and some just because it's there. Credit card companies have been hacked, banks have been hacked, Corporations and yes Exchanges have been hacked so why would anybody think it would be different for crypto-currency exchanges?

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:

quote:

$530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange

Two points...
First, the article I read, it wasn't Bitcoin it was NEM(another crypto-currency) that was stolen from the Japanese Exchange.
Second it wasn't the blockchain of the coin that was hacked it was the EXCHANGE that was hacked.

This isn't anything new or different from the real world.

quote:

The threat of exchanges being hacked, though, is very real. More than half of the 46 exchanges surveyed by the International Organization of Securities Commissions and the World Federation of Exchanges reported suffering a cyberattack in 2012, according to a working paper released the following year. Exchanges in the U.S. were 67% more likely to have reported experiencing an attack than those based elsewhere

https://www.marketwatch.com/st...o-hackers-2015-07-31

Last September the SEC revealed that they had been hacked and the information was likely used for insider trading. All of the major stock exchanges including the NYSE have been under nearly constant attack from hacker for years...Hackers like big targets, some for money , some for infamy and some just because it's there. Credit card companies have been hacked, banks have been hacked, Corporations and yes Exchanges have been hacked so why would anybody think it would be different for crypto-currency exchanges?

Cause the non secretive nature and redundancy of legal systems make corporations, credit card companies, banks and governments more stable in face of illegal hacking. It’s painful but not the end of the game.

If someone hack and creates 5 mil new bitcoins what would the other 21 mil (fully diluted) be worth?

Mike

Mike you should know this but, if consumers have no faith and confidence in vapor currency, they will not put money behind it. No money and faith translates to no value.

And if you would look at Bitcoin values as an example, the new and shiny is wearing off. It's lost more than half its value in the past 6 weeks.

Blockchain is a vehicle, not an investment.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Mike you should know this but, if consumers have no faith and confidence in vapor currency, they will not put money behind it. No money and faith translates to no value.

And if you would look at Bitcoin values as an example, the new and shiny is wearing off. It's lost more than half its value in the past 6 weeks.

Blockchain is a vehicle, not an investment.

He probably didn't mine and smelt the steel to make the tools out of either. Geesh.

No direct leverage in bitcoin but lots of indirect leverage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/0...h-a-credit-card.html

Credit card companies joining governments in restricting access to bitcoins.

Mike

Just broke $7.

Interesting article on arbitrage in wsj.

The design of bitcoin means that it gets very computationally intensive as transactions/liquidity increases.

Unlike gold which retains its golden glow are being mined - bitcoin requires a continuous mining/computational infrastructure to exist.

Mike

Blockchain value is based on vapor...

I thought it was smoke and mirrors.

China bans bitcoin trading access

http://www.businessinsider.com...rency-trading-2018-2

So China will mine bitcoin and become its computation center but not allow its financial system to be impacted by it.

Can't civilize monkeys/primates/humans - end of day humans need asset bubbles.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:

quote:

$530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange

Two points...
First, the article I read, it wasn't Bitcoin it was NEM(another crypto-currency) that was stolen from the Japanese Exchange.
Second it wasn't the blockchain of the coin that was hacked it was the EXCHANGE that was hacked.

This isn't anything new or different from the real world.

quote:

The threat of exchanges being hacked, though, is very real. More than half of the 46 exchanges surveyed by the International Organization of Securities Commissions and the World Federation of Exchanges reported suffering a cyberattack in 2012, according to a working paper released the following year. Exchanges in the U.S. were 67% more likely to have reported experiencing an attack than those based elsewhere

https://www.marketwatch.com/st...o-hackers-2015-07-31

Last September the SEC revealed that they had been hacked and the information was likely used for insider trading. All of the major stock exchanges including the NYSE have been under nearly constant attack from hacker for years...Hackers like big targets, some for money , some for infamy and some just because it's there. Credit card companies have been hacked, banks have been hacked, Corporations and yes Exchanges have been hacked so why would anybody think it would be different for crypto-currency exchanges?

it's more fun to bash new fangled scary things

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The main point bitcoin has proved is that a non hackable algo has been developed.

There is a $100 bill plus asset value that hangs as a price to would be hackers.

The question is what happens if it is every hacked.

The other issue is that the computational backbone of bitcoin is primarily in a couple of provinces in China. So one has geographic natural disaster and Chinese government risk.

counterfeit currencies are most perfectly created by other nation states with printing presses.

Bitcoin is tough to hack but not impossible. Unlike fiat money when counterfipeited there will be a total collapse of bitcoin.

Regardless of valuation I would not bet on a algorithm which has no state backing.

Mike

An exchange was hacked yes. the currency itself was not hacked. by design it can't be hacked. Of course it can still be stolen if access is gained to a wallet. Especially a wallet being held on an exchange (not stored offline)

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Hackers just stole $530,000,000 worth of bitcoins from a Japanese exchange yesterday.

That’s impossible- the pundits here have already told us that it is the wave of the future and the next sliced bread.See theBloomberg link I posted above. I think it is the same story.

oh yes. I take it all back. Currency was stolen therefore the technology and everything with it, is a big scam. tulips.

https://www.banking.senate.gov...testimony-2-6-18.pdf

Highlights from tomorrow's testimony from Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman-

"These warnings are not an effort to undermine the fostering of innovation through our capital markets –America was built on the ingenuity, vision and spirit of entrepreneurs who tackled old and new problems in new, innovative ways. Rather, they are meant to educate Main Street investors that many promoters of ICOs and cryptocurrencies are not complying with our securities laws and, as a result, the risks are significant."

"Through the years, technological innovations have improved our markets, including through increased competition, lower barriers to entry and decreased costs for market participants. Distributed ledger and other emerging technologies have the potential to further influence and improve the capital markets and the financial services industry. Businesses, especially smaller businesses without efficient access to traditional capital markets, can be aided by financial technology in raising capital to establish and finance their operations, thereby allowing them to be more competitive both domestically and globally. And these technological innovations can provide investors with new opportunities to offer support and capital to novel concepts and ideas."

"Said simply,we should embrace the pursuit of technological advancement, as well as new and innovative techniques for capital raising, but not at the expense of the principles undermining our well-founded and proven approach to protecting investors and markets."

Highlights from Commodity Futures Trading Commission Chairman

"Traditionally, there has been a need for a trusted intermediary – for example a bank or other financial institution – to serve as a gatekeeper for transactions and many economic activities. Virtual currencies seek to replace the need for a central authority or intermediary with a decentralized, rules-based and open consensus mechanism. An array of thoughtful business, technology, academic, and policy leaders have extrapolated some of the possible impacts that derive from such an innovation, including how market participants conduct transactions, transfer ownership, and power peer-to-peer applications and economic systems."

"...In fact, virtual currencies may be all things to all people: for some, potential riches, the next big thing, a technological revolution, and an exorable value proposition; for others, a fraud, a new form of temptation and allure, and a way to separate the unsuspecting from their money."

"The CFTC and SEC, along with other federal and state regulators and criminal authorities, will continue to work together to bring transparency and integrity to these markets and, importantly, to deter and prosecute fraud and abuse. These markets are new, evolving and international. As such they require us to be nimble and forward-looking; coordinated with our state, federal and international colleagues; and engaged with important stakeholders, including Congress."

"We are entering a new digital era in world financial markets. As we saw with the development of the Internet, we cannot put the technology genie back in the bottle. Virtual currencies mark a paradigm shift in how we think about payments, traditional financial processes, and engaging in economic activity. Ignoring these developments will not make them go away, nor is it a responsible regulatory response. The evolution of these assets, their volatility, and the interest they attract from a rising global millennial population demand serious examination."

"With the proper balance of sound policy, regulatory oversight and private sector innovation, new technologies will allow American markets to evolve in responsible ways and continue to grow our economy and increase prosperity. This hearing is an important part of finding that balance."

Very interesting article from nytims

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...x-bitcoin-price.html

The market making in these crypto currencies is a massive scam.

The algom might be tough to hack but intermediation to buy and sell it is massively fraudulent.

Also the core underlying premise of bitcoin is a joke. It is a Chinese centric computing also and china does not trust it as a financial asset.

Mike

Bitcoin mining break even

https://www.bloomberg.com/news...ill-still-make-money

Bitcoin went below $6k briefly.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Very interesting article from nytims

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0...x-bitcoin-price.html

The market making in these crypto currencies is a massive scam.

The algom might be tough to hack but intermediation to buy and sell it is massively fraudulent.

Also the core underlying premise of bitcoin is a joke. It is a Chinese centric computing also and china does not trust it as a financial asset.

Mike

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
"Physical money will go away in our lifetimes"....that's a buncha happy horseshit.

I think a few of you have been reading too much sci-fi.

The idea of money is that it's a physical manifestation of value, virtual can't do that.

Grizz

quote:

The idea of money is that it's a physical manifestation of value, virtual can't do that.

Not really, it is something to facilitate commerce, ie. a medium of exchange. Fiat money has no physical value either except what people accept it for.

A credit card is modern money, you can buy with it, assuming one has good credit, etc. There is no difference between a government issued card which says how much money you have, or have available to spend, and a credit card, except that in the case of the government card, it represents real value.

A credit card is the same as money with an added time element

What a great investment-and totally safe ,too.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43025788