quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:


It is interesting that you have access to the thread and post what you feel paints you in the best light and it is gone for everyone else. Your line by line account is lacking any merit, but your "apology is so sincere" - yeah spare me.

Yes, I too found this interesting. Jeffe PM'd me a while back about comments I made about the first thread. Then he produced these quotes and expected me to answer with like quotes??????

Interesting that a man who claims to not have had anything to do with the thread's removal either has access to it or made a copy of it. Do I sense a wee bit of paranoia?

Why don't you post a copy (unadulterated of course) of your first post for all to see.

Jeffe, I won't attack Sharon for saying a 2.25" blank is normal for a cheekpiece when your original statement was more to the affect of " the Dressel's consider a 2.25" extra thick."

Not quite the same in my book.

poleax, it is really simple, when a person spreds or speaks total LIES it will come back to haunt him at some point. Having saved a copy of the whole thread will help him to cover up.
misremember

quote:

Interesting that a man who claims to not have had anything to do with the thread's removal either has access to it or made a copy of it. Do I sense a wee bit of paranoia?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeffeoso:

...or make "jokes" about beating women or sexual abuse of Children. Some posters cry "censorship" when these loose guidelines are crossed and the posters are asked to not do so. I can't imagine anyone supporting spousal abuse or child molestation, much less on a gunsmithing forum

WHO made jokes about spousal abuse and child molestation???

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Well, what I wonder is why Ms. Dressel could not join our little group here and come on herself and say what she had to say.

I would think that anyone who is in the gun business would want to be a member of this forum and come on from time to time to provide information about their products and services, as well as to refute statements.

I would have thought the reason for this is quite evident.

Vapo,
Out of curiosity, just what did you mean by this if I might ask?

Duikerman
It just seemed to me that Dressels has a very solid reputation for fair dealings and in general quality at all levels. Their reputation is so strong that none of us here could singlehandedly besmerch their reputation simply because we all know that one guy can be just plain wrong.

It wasn't like dozens of folks were saying negative things about Dressels.....Only one and that person was saying only that his own experience was of a particular manner.

While I'm fortunate to have a fairly large stash of walnut and have never had to buy it from dealers, if that wasn't so, I'd go to Dressels in a heartbeat regardless of what any single poster here has said.

Further I understand the Dressels are very busy with their business and likely don't have time to devote to furthering their business on forums such as these. Especially to attach their name to threads that end in pissing contests.

It was fully my intent to say that there was no business need or reason for Dressels to post here as it is my understanding they don't need to and in fact might be detrimental.

Their name has not been trodden on in my eyes and I suspect not in the eyes of anyone posting here on AR.....So why would they want to post here?

Of the people posting on this thread, I'm among those that make nothing at all in business solicited or desired from it....I've repeatedly stated that my "smithing" is for hobbing only and it's still that way.

For those that are here to "attract some customers" it's another story and in my book they have lost ground. Why would Dressels want to join such a thread.....?????

Vapo

Did you own a walnut farm or what? Otherwise how do you get a large stash of walnut without having to buy it from dealers.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Vapo

Did you own a walnut farm or what? Otherwise how do you get a large stash of walnut without having to buy it from dealers.

My grandmother's farm in Southern Minnesota had a lot of very large walnut trees and when the county built a road thru the place the trees all came out.

My father and I salvaged the trees (many of whom two folks couldn't reach around (and I was 11 at the time)

We had all the trees sawed into lumber and even at that time I was interested in guns and talked my father into sawing a bunch of 3" thick slabs for gunstocks.

That walnut has made a lot of grandfathers clocks, rolltop desks, bedroom furniture and yes...gunstocks. There is still thousands of board feet there from all the trees we sawed.....maybe there was fifty of them ....and all very large....we even sawed the branches of many of them.

It seems the only purpose of this thread is to stir up more shit and it seems to have accomplished that. I don't think any rational person came away from the thread that started this with a poor opinion of Dressels based on what was posted. Speaking for myself.... I made a few very general comments that were taken completely overboard by the drunk Rick. I believe it was that worthless POS that instigated the whole thing. Why some of you choose to crawl in the mud with him is beyond me and certainly has changed my opinion of a few people I once respected.

If Mrs. Dressel felt it was necessary to post a rebuttal I think she was lead astray by the actual content of the thread. MY only complaint is that I never noticed their return policy untill all this came up. I think I'd prefer a dealer that would back up an internal flaw. Maybe they do regardless of their stated warranty but this in combination with morons like Rick representing Dressels, I'll do my shopping elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
VD, no I don't know everything and I don't post when I am in that position. It NEVER slows you down.

Chic,
I, for one, found your recent posts on this subject, VERY REFRESHING!

I also thought Malm's comments to be right to the point and well taken.

As the saying goes: If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your bull shit!

I always wondered how yapodog could make 6,865+ posts in a little over 3 years and still have a meaningful life? A laptop perhaps? With a Die Hard battery connected to it.

Face it, you're not an expert on whatever the subject is, regardless of what YOU think of yourself.

yapo, you called Chic a small man, but when you have to resort to name calling, it ain't Chic that's the small one...

Stepchild

You know what guys, I think this whole thing has gone far enough. No need for anyone else to call anyone names as all it does is puts the name caller at the same level as the one they are calling names.

There has been a lot of evidence presented in this case. Quite a bit of it conflicting. And the exact truth may never be known.

One thing is for sure, whatever exactly happened cannot be changed.

Lets put it to bed.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
VD, no I don't know everything and I don't post when I am in that position. It NEVER slows you down.

Chic,
I, for one, found your recent posts on this subject, VERY REFRESHING!

I also thought Malm's comments to be right to the point and well taken.

As the saying goes: If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your bull shit!

I always wondered how yapodog could make 6,865+ posts in a little over 3 years and still have a meaningful life? A laptop perhaps? With a Die Hard battery connected to it.

Face it, you're not an expert on whatever the subject is, regardless of what YOU think of yourself.

yapo, you called Chic a small man, but when you have to resort to name calling, it ain't Chic that's the small one...

Stepchild

Step2...congratulations...you too have just joined the losers on this thread. And you didn't need any help at all did you?

Dempsey, your comments are typical of you, off the mark and without merit. BTW, if you find an internal flaw in a blank from Dressels, they will replace or fix it to your satisfaction and I know that from the experience of others. Their comment on their site was based on returning a blank.

Your name calling on Rick is also typical of you. If what happend to Rick was justified, the same should have happened to you. He responded in kind, using the same language and he gets asked to apologize or leave. The same options should have been given to you.

I think you need to examine your own motives and comments, they are beyond suspect.

Stepchild, thanks for the comments. I noticed that you get branded because you disagreed with VD. A bit oversensitive to criticism. Okay a lot more than oversensitive. It is interesting that anyone who disagrees with VD is a loser.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I will reserve judgement except to say that I have met Chick a couple of times and he has always been a square shooter. He is a gentleman, and I would take what he says to the bank.

Jeff

Customstox, you're welcome to your opinion but of course you're smart enough to realize I take it as just that and only that, everyone has one. I did not see any reference regarding internal flaws on their site. Of course I could have missed it but I don't think so. Reading their return policy certainly would lead most people to interpret it as I did. Perhaps they should write another. Regardless I'm done with them as a result of this crap.

Believe me I'm not the only one to hold the opinion of Rick which I stated earlier and what he got was long overdue. I really need not comment any further as most who remember him know enough to make their own opinion of the matter. I'm fully comfortable in my own motives and comments so please don't worry.

It's threads like this that make me realize what Dennis Olson meant when he said he considered web site and e-mail to be two swear words. He further stated that if he did go on forums such as this one he would probably be mad a good share of the time.
I actually am surprised that as many well known craftsman post as much as the do because of what they can get dragged into without even trying to start an argument. I marvel at their diplomatic nature.

Although I do enjoy reading a lot from everyone that posts here and on other forums I have come to realize that such an avenue is not always the best place to exchange information. At first glance it would seem like an ideal place to do so but too many things can cause it to go gunny-bags and it winds up in a fruitless hassle often with harsh words spoken that probably weren't exactly what was meant to be said or wouldn't be said in a face to face discussion. Often it seems to me if there was a problem with something it would have been far easier to have contacted the folks that one was dealing with rather than put it on the internet to provide a feeding freenzy. I'm not sure that was the case here, but it has been a lot of times in the past on various forums.

While I don't know the Dressels, they actually only live about 35 miles from me, I feel bad that their name is being dragged through the mud a bit because from all I have heard about them they are a class act. It's just a shame Mrs. Dressel felt she had to have a rebuttal posted to present her case. If there was an unhappy customer it seems a phone call from them to her would have been a lot less hassle for everyone concerned and this thread would have had no need to exist.

Well....BULL*#&t! I can't believe this. I miss a lot of the crap that goes on here, I usually make the mistake of only looking for threads that I can tell from the title might interest me. I can't believe it. I don't know why I bother, but..

First, what kind of BS is this that businesses should be members of forums like this because their customers are here etc? Please Lord don't ever let me get such a big opinion of myself that I start thinking this way. Businesses MARKET in the way they find most effective, very few find this sort of a site an effective source, especially if they are established. You can't possible make a good use of your time on a sight like this, and then you open yourself up to publicly addressing countless issues and problems with customers. Add to that that you cannot possibly make everybody happy (some people are just plain morons and truth be told would cause a problem for any vendor they deal with) and it could be a real time consuming issue.

the sad side of it is that with the internet it is so easy to sling manure at a person or business. Why should those people feel compelled to join the sight and start participating because of this? Although I don't spend much time on there, I doubt that people at the machinist's forum think that somebody from Southbend should join.

Jeffe, come on, alcohol or water are modifications and basically the same as a marker? This is way above you and I am really surprised. if they said water and alcohol were ok, and this type of thing really did change a blank (which you know they do not) then it would be a noted exception to the Any Changes thing. I have wiped the blank I have and the semi-inletted stocks out there many time with alcohol with no problems I can see, and my understanding is that wiping the surface of a stock with water won't actually change the moisture content of the wood.

There was something else I saw and wanted to comment on but I can't remember. Hell, it's late, I'm sick, hopefully this whole forum picks up its quality of content.

Ope, remembered, giving somebody an option of apologizing or leaving? damn, I didn't read the post, but it must have been pretty damn bad. I avoid the politics forum, but imagine that if it is the same as it used to be there is a whole lot on there that people should apologize for. I don't think grownups should be required to apologize, if they are coerced they don't mean it anyways. As a new father I think kids should be made to, but they are learning proper behavior. Once you're a man nobody should make you apologize, you feel sorry or you don't. delete the damn post and ban the person if you like, but giving them that choice is crap. IN fact, I'd guess that many men would take whatever the other option was just out of that belief that they shouldn't be told when they have to say sorry.

That's my 2 cents.

Red

Sorry, couldn't resist...

I whole heartedly appologize to the Dressels for any thing, real or conceived, that my statements may have made. .

Futher, with Chic's suggestion, I will take the offer provided to Rck and retract any statements related to their stock blank thickness.

Sorry for the trouble

quote:

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Yes, that's funny...but funnier is that if Al got his way there would be alcohol detectors on all computers and forums would be disallowed when alcohol is detected. If that was the case then 2/3 of all the posts on this thread would have been prevented last night.

I know by way of a mutual friend that a (recently banned) former poster was so plastered at his keyboard that he couldn't see straight. It appears he has a lot of company here.....and yes....he was leading the charge of attacks. Damn good riddance!!!

quote:

posted by Jeffeosso:
I whole heartedly appologize to the Dressels for any thing, real or conceived, that my statements may have made. .

Jeff,
At least IMO that's not at all necessary as this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Dressels. It is and was intended to be nothing but a personal attack. BTW one that has dragged a fine company thru some pretty deep crap and quite undeservadly so.

I commend you for your efforts and to wear your best "AR" hat but again, please remember, this thread is not in the least about Dressels and was never intended to be.

Red

Your quote


Posted 24 July 2006 14:05
First, what kind of BS is this that businesses should be members of forums like this because their customers are here etc? Please Lord don't ever let me get such a big opinion of myself that I start thinking this way. Businesses MARKET in the way they find most effective, very few find this sort of a site an effective source, especially if they are established. You can't possible make a good use of your time on a sight like this, and then you open yourself up to publicly addressing countless issues and problems with customers. Add to that that you cannot possibly make everybody happy (some people are just plain morons and truth be told would cause a problem for any vendor they deal with) and it could be a real time consuming issue.

the sad side of it is that with the internet it is so easy to sling manure at a person or business. Why should those people feel compelled to join the sight and start participating because of this? Although I don't spend much time on there, I doubt that people at the machinist's forum think that somebody from Southbend should join."

I think this was directed at me.

The point I was trying to make was that I thought Ms. Dressel should have personally answered her own critics here on AR rather than through hearsay. I still believe it to be a valid point, and I don't believe it to be, as you say, B.S., although I certainly respect that it is your opinion.

Idared:

You said it the best...yours should have been the last post allowed on this subject....

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

The point I was trying to make was that I thought Ms. Dressel should have personally answered her own critics here on AR rather than through hearsay.

She did, those where her words, all chic did was actually post them.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
but again, please remember, this thread is not in the least about Dressels and was never intended to be.

Enlighten us please, what was it about?

It is interesting, to see CustomStox preaching from high on the mountaintop of righteousness, wanting things to be seen in the truth and set right.
However I do recall he himself making derogatory statements about another particular walnut dealer. He claimed that one of his friends got "ripped" by Roger Vardy.
At the time I not unreasonably asked that he properly substantiate his open forum comments to be fair to all. It seems he never bothered to do so. However he did go to the trouble of deleting the posts that linked him to such comments.
You will see from my posts in the link below, that I was in dialog with him and that there are obviously some of his posts missing now.
I would be wise for people who preach codes of ethics about credibility and conciseness, to actually put them into practice in their own lives.
I suppose the oportunity to substantiate or set the record straight on that matter is still open. He asked Jeff to do the right thing,now heres his chance to do the same.


https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/286101821/p/2

Dempsey,

Dressels warranty their wood with out question concerning an internal flaw. I speak from personal experience.



Concerning the rest of this thread.......well Im not sure what to say about most of it. Other than this......

Chic Worthing has been my friend and mentor for the past 7 years. I have NEVER known him to lie to me or anyone else about anything. I will admit he can be a tad abrasive at times, however, I have yet to find a time where what he said was not accurate to the best of his knowledge. The feeding frenzy here has gone on long enough I think. I would hope that all of us would stop just for a minute and ask ourselves why we are really here. Is this it??? If you really want an ear full I challenge any of you internet junkies to call Paul up and discuss your issues with him. If you think Chic is direct and abrasive, you havent seen anything yet. Paul is also one helluva guy and an absolute gem. There is probably more knowledge about custom rifles stored in his head than anyone I've ever met. I consider Paul and Sharon two of my closest friends in this business and this entire issue could have been easily solved with a simple phone call to either one of them. Instead folks chose to assume, interperet, LIE, etc etc etc. I dont have the time to go back and quote all of the mis-information spewed out by others on this site about the Dressels. Suffice it to say the next time you have a problem or question about a blank from the Dressels - pick up the GOD DAMN PHONE AND TALK TO THEM.

One point most of you are missing about the Dressels is they dont NEED you to buy a blank. If you buy a blank and dont like it. Send it back. Someone else WILL buy it.

Rick0311 is also a good guy in my opinion. From where I sit...Rick saw a friend of his being drug through the mud (Dressels) and reacted. He values his friends and while his language was over the top and offensive I can understand what he did.

Well I've spent enough time typing this...I hope these words dont fall on deaf ears.

VD, you are talking out of your hat again. And the hat is smarter. Sharon emailed that message to me and called and asked me to post it. She wanted her side of the tale in her words on here. Now try to get that through your thick skull. It was to get another shot at Jeff or to give you an opportunity to shout your wisdom. It could have been just left alone and read but everyone had to start taking pot shots.

Bill

as long as you are here, would you mind telling us where your Charity Rifle project is at right now.

22WRF,
I am not Bill, but I do know that the charity rifle metalwork is still at jim Dubells shop in Colville. I also know that Bill has just moved his family out to Sturgis and packing and moving took a week out his income. Butch Searcy was kind enough to let Bill work over during the last 2 or 3 weeks so he could get paid while he was gone.

I am sure when Bill gets the metal back he will find time to complete the rifle.

I know what he is going through. The Ottmar rifle I am working on has taken over 4 years and it is just now nearing completion. We did however have a lot more people working on this one.

I also know you have to catch him early or he is in bed. 8:30 and he is usually starting to nod off. He does get up and early and is a good upland bird companion in the wee hours and always lets enough birds go by so you can get some shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
22WRF,
I am not Bill, but I do know that the charity rifle metalwork is still at jim Dubells shop in Colville. I also know that Bill has just moved his family out to Sturgis and packing and moving took a week out his income. Butch Searcy was kind enough to let Bill work over during the last 2 or 3 weeks so he could get paid while he was gone.

I am sure when Bill gets the metal back he will find time to complete the rifle.

I know what he is going through. The Ottmar rifle I am working on has taken over 4 years and it is just now nearing completion. We did however have a lot more people working on this one.

I also know you have to catch him early or he is in bed. 8:30 and he is usually starting to nod off. He does get up and early and is a good upland bird companion in the wee hours and always lets enough birds go by so you can get some shooting.

Thanks for the update. I appreciate it.

Is there wood realy any good at all??? :

sharon is a real to deal with, i just had to give her a little crap.

sharon and paul are the best there is to seal,you will never find better people to deal with.i have been buying from them for a long time. the best without question.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:


Dressels warranty their wood with out question concerning an internal flaw. I speak from personal experience.

'
'
'
'

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Dressel's would not warrenty their wood for internal flaws to me, I asked them, twice.

Hmm. So which is it? Differant policies depending on if you know them from before or not?

Perhaps it is a good thing that this squabble popped up to the surface.

In a roundabout way, it gives the Dressels the opportunity to revise their website, where they can now clearly state their policy. So there'll be no problems/questions in the future.

If all the necessary "pounds of flesh" have been exacted and sincere apologies issued, can we now move on?

Steve, I find your allegation beyond belief. I'd like to see proof of purchase and proof and denial. Too many of us professionals have purchased wood from Dressel's and have recommended purchase to all be wrong. Be honest...have you really ever purchased wood from the Dressels?

Mr. Hughes

As long as you are here, hows the new bood coming along. We are waiting patiently.
(things like this issue might be good for a chapter in the book!!!)

(Maybe this might be a good opportunity for a new line of business. Blank Insurance.
The seller could refer a customer to the broker, who charges a reasonable fee for replacement insurance. then if the blank has problems he pays on the claim. If not he makes a few bucks. Takes the pressure of the seller and the buyer)

This is why a warrenty against internal flaws is so important.

This blank was replaced by Cecil Fredi after I sent him this photo. I lost many hours of work, but at least not the multi-hundred dollars the blank cost.
SDH
22, the book is in process, will be out next year. I'm sure LLoyds would insure.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
the client had picked out this beautiful blank at the show, with a bark inclusion showing on one side. It was a great stick in the $1200-1400 range, except for the flaw. I specifically asked, "Will you replace this if there is an internal flaw?" The only answer I got was, "it will work out in shaping".

Steve,

Im not sure what your intent here is but the situation you describe is not what I would consider to be a refusal of warranty. You were looking at a blank with an obvious flaw that had been discounted in price because of the flaw.

I bought a blank from Paul and Sharon a few years back with the same type of of flaw. Paul checked it thoroughly and assured me in his opinion it would come out in shaping. The price was severely discounted due to the obvious flaw. I was also assured that should the flaw not come out and render the blank unusable it would be replaced.

Losing hours on the bench due to wood flaws is part of the job. I also dont take much stock in the fact that you "lost a job" because you wouldnt let the client buy that particular stock blank. There are multiple wood dealers at the shows and just because this particular blank wasnt suitable for your needs it should not have meant the loss of the entire job. Sounds to me like you really didnt have the client on board with your services. Maybe he was just looking for a way out? It happens.

Bill, well said. I think you put his comment to bed.

Chic:

quote:

...The Ottmar rifle I am working on has taken over 4 years and it is just now nearing completion.

THANK GOD! My 09 Argentine has been kicking my ass since the OEJ was completed. I thought I was retarded or something. Stuff has a way of just piling up in a man's life, doesn't it?

MKane160

Bill, The blank was in no way discounted but a fairly stiff price even if flawless. Nobody had any "x-ray specs" that day but I've made a few stocks in my time and trust my own judgement. I was NOT "assured...it would be replaced" that's why I asked a second time. I would have bought it, no question about it, if I had been assured.
"Loosing hours on the bench due to wood flaws" is NOT part of the job in my shop and is to be avoided at all cost.
Your probably right about the client and that's the way the chips fall sometimes.
The whole point to me is, if you look a wood merchant in the eye and ask, "Will you replace it if it has an internal flaw?" and you don't get a straight answer, it is best to just walk away. Same thing if you are buying on the phone. I simply won't buy a blank if the return policy doesn't specifically include internal flaws. It is one of the first pieces of advice I give anyone asking about buying stock blanks.
There's lots of wood for sale from lots of dealers.
And like I said, no twisted knickers here.
SDH