I disagree that the most difficult part of the equation in long range shooting has been range estimation. I think that judging wind drift, particularly in mountainous terrain, is and always has been a far more challenging problem

I was at a 1000 match once and the Range Master said because of the terrain and the swirling wind, the bullets were making an "S" enroute to the target.
I know that on my range in WV, I have had wind flags blowing in 3 different directions at once. And that was just 100 yards.

I will admit to taking a few longish shots over the years. I only do it the last day of the season if I have not filled a single tag in three states I hunt. That is when the 264WM comes out for hunting. My longest kill was 504 lasered yards. One shot, one kill. That is because I shoot it regularly at the 500 yard range by my house or down the 400 yard lake at the farm.

Since I have gotten older, I have opted for the other method...getting much closer and using pistols and muzzleloaders and crossbow. It is just more fun for me than "Oh, I see that deer in the distance, let's shoot it".

I will spend the next year practicing at long range more since I am going on an antelope hunt next October where the outfitter says the average shot is 300 yards. To me, that means practice in every position, after crawling for a while, after running some, etc. Just seems like what I should do.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The only time it is truly necessary to take a long range shot is if an animal is wounded and the long range shot is the best option due to timing or conditions. It is not "necessary" to take the long range shot because you won't get an animal if you don't. It is an ego-building choice which is made. I shoot some "F" class from time to time and do pretty well at it. I do not shoot at animals at long range. I resent being told that I should only hunt with iron sights because I prefer to stalk close.
I know quite a few guys who like to shoot game at long range. Mostly they are nice enough guys and some are damn good shots. If they are capable, it's hard to argue with their methods. For myself, I KNOW I can usually hit a pie plate at 800 yards and I don't feel the need to try it on a deer, elk, or sheep. I've nothing to prove in that regard and if necessary, I can prove it at the next match. Regards, Bill

You cannot be serious??

These threads are always somewhat amusing. Skill levels aside as that's a given that you should only shoot to your ability and that of your gear, the self righteous posters calling those that hunt at long range: unethical, poor hunters only doing it to inflate their ego can never offer up a range/yardage at which it switches from good to bad. It typically has more to do with their own style of hunting or ability than it does anything else. It's always good for a laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The only time it is truly necessary to take a long range shot is if an animal is wounded and the long range shot is the best option due to timing or conditions. It is not "necessary" to take the long range shot because you won't get an animal if you don't. It is an ego-building choice which is made. I shoot some "F" class from time to time and do pretty well at it. I do not shoot at animals at long range. I resent being told that I should only hunt with iron sights because I prefer to stalk close.
I know quite a few guys who like to shoot game at long range. Mostly they are nice enough guys and some are damn good shots. If they are capable, it's hard to argue with their methods. For myself, I KNOW I can usually hit a pie plate at 800 yards and I don't feel the need to try it on a deer, elk, or sheep. I've nothing to prove in that regard and if necessary, I can prove it at the next match. Regards, Bill

You cannot be serious??

I take it you haven't tried it.

I wouldn't consider myself much of a hunter if I couldn't get within 200 yards, which is my personal limitation. And for me, that's a long shot.
I guess you could mount a 50 bmg and computer operate it from home and say you were hunting. Sounds just as sporting as 800 yd shots.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I wouldn't consider myself much of a hunter if I couldn't get within 200 yards, which is my personal limitation. And for me, that's a long shot.
I guess you could mount a 50 bmg and computer operate it from home and say you were hunting. Sounds just as sporting as 800 yd shots.

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

There are places, and circumstance, where one has absolutely no choice but to take a long shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I wouldn't consider myself much of a hunter if I couldn't get within 200 yards, which is my personal limitation. And for me, that's a long shot.
I guess you could mount a 50 bmg and computer operate it from home and say you were hunting. Sounds just as sporting as 800 yd shots.

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

There are places, and circumstance, where one has absolutely no choice but to take a long shot.

"Absolutely no choice but to take a long shot"? I'm going to guess you've not done much hunting just a lot of shooting. You'd have to be pretty trigger happy to say you don't have a choice. It's as easy as not pulling the trigger and waiting to get a better shot.

One can call it whatever he wishes.

But, let me give you a couple of examples.

We were in South Africa in the Drakensberg Mountains, hunting eland.

We left camp very early in the morning, and went up the mountains on horse back.

We were going up in the clouds, and when we got close to the top, we waited for the clouds to clear.

Eventually they did, and we could see a herd of eland on the opposite mountain.

They were over 500 yards away.

It was either shoot, or go home empty handed.

I had a wildcat 270 I have designed and built a rifle for. It is based on the 404 Jeffery case shortened slightly.

I lay down and fired a shot at one of the bulls.

He jumped up, ran a few yards, and stopped.

I fired another shot at him, he stumbled and fell.

It took us quite some time to get to him.

We fond that both by bullets were within 4 inches of each other on his shoulder.

On another occasion we were shooting impala for leopard bait.

We have already shot 3, and saw a herd running up a hillside.

Again, I rested my rifle on a rock, and fired a shot at him.

He dropped. We measured the distance with a range finder and it was over 400 yards.

We followed a herd of buffalo of a while, and caught up with them feeding late in the afternoon in an open area.

Se were in the tree line, and were worried they might take off if they saw us.

They were over 300 yards away.

My Ph put the shooting sticks up, saying "a bit far to shoot a buffalo"

I fired a shot at a bull, and he ran off with the rest of them.

We walked up to them, and found him dead within a few yards from where he was shot.

The funny part is I have not missed a single animal I have shot at, at long range.

I have refrained from taking some shots at close range, because of one thing or another.

It is hunting, and one takes what comes his way.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The only time it is truly necessary to take a long range shot is if an animal is wounded and the long range shot is the best option due to timing or conditions. It is not "necessary" to take the long range shot because you won't get an animal if you don't. It is an ego-building choice which is made. I shoot some "F" class from time to time and do pretty well at it. I do not shoot at animals at long range. I resent being told that I should only hunt with iron sights because I prefer to stalk close.
I know quite a few guys who like to shoot game at long range. Mostly they are nice enough guys and some are damn good shots. If they are capable, it's hard to argue with their methods. For myself, I KNOW I can usually hit a pie plate at 800 yards and I don't feel the need to try it on a deer, elk, or sheep. I've nothing to prove in that regard and if necessary, I can prove it at the next match. Regards, Bill

You cannot be serious??

I take it you haven't tried it.

What, a long shot lol... Yes, I have! Shame on me!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I wouldn't consider myself much of a hunter if I couldn't get within 200 yards, which is my personal limitation. And for me, that's a long shot.
I guess you could mount a 50 bmg and computer operate it from home and say you were hunting. Sounds just as sporting as 800 yd shots.

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

There are places, and circumstance, where one has absolutely no choice but to take a long shot.

Good shootin', but, no offense, try that when the wind isn't cooperating. 15-20+mph swirling winds make fools out of the best of the best.

There are times that here in the West it is nearly impossible to get close to an animal. At least it is for me!

I will give you two examples and I will let you criticize. Actually, the one instance will give some of the self righteous a great argument against me

The 1st was my wife's elk hunt. She had never killed anything here in the states. She had been to Africa and done well. However, this was her first hunt at home. We practiced at the range and my plan was to keep the shot less than 300 yards.

We found two bulls (elk) feed underneath a cedar. It was a late hunt here in Utah. The elk had no idea we were there, but you could tell they were nervous and we got as far as we could get. There was a large opening between us and the elk. The would have seen us if we would have went any farther.

I ranged them at 430 yards (which is a long shot for me). I decided to have my wife take the shot. She had a good rest. She shot, and I could tell the elk was hit. However, it did not go down. I asked here where she aimed and she said right for the center of the elk! She said that in the excitement she forgot to aim "behind the shoulder". Anyway, long story short, we left the elk that night and was back up there the next morning with a lot of help. We found the elk and it was hit exactly where she aimed!

So, yes, it could be argued that she should not have take the shot due to someones so called ethical hunting regulations. I am sure glad that she did!

The second example was a few weeks ago. We were driving our UTV and we saw a buck we had been hunting earlier on the far side of the opposite hill. It was near the top of the hill, standing in a clearing. There were thick cedars above it and it was watching us, and I am sure not thinking we could see it. I ranged it at 518.

After determining it was next to impossible to get on the buck from the top, I decided to have him shoot. He got a good rest, took the shot, and shot just a few inches high! We were not happy, but that is hunting! We went to the top, around to where the buck was and it was so thick that we would have never been able to get on it!

Anyhow, that is me ramble. I am not that great of a shot. 4-500 would be my absolute limit and the conditions would have to be great (a good rest, and no other way to get closer). But that is me! Other people have far different limitations!

Fire away......

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Hey Dick, don't get a nose bleed on that horse you set on. So are you saying Saeed is not a hunter just because you don't think he is one? He don't need me to defend him but I would be a pretty good wage he has killed more animals in one week, from 10 yards to 400, than you have in your life. Especially if you are dead set on a 200 yard limit. What kind of a hunter can't kill an elk or a deer at 300 yards with a bolt action, centerfire firearm? I get why some don't agree with long range hunting as in 350 yards plus, but to limit the world to 200 yards by your definition of a real hunter is pretty pathetic.. I bet you would really support my Elite Hunter Permisive System, wouldn't you?

Todd

I'll take that bet; how much? And just to clear the air, I'm guessing by your grammar English isn't your first language, so I'd like to ascertain that the bet is in US dollars.

Shoot at everything you see. Someone will probably happen along and kill it for you later. Maybe you're one of the unsung heroes that an 800 yd off hand shot is just a cakewalk.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Oh yeah... The good ol "I don't have any sort of rebuttal to counter him calling me a righteous prick so I'll prove to the world I'm not by becoming a grammar cop" response. I'm going to go ahead and let you have it.. You obviously need it worse than I do..

Todd

Oh, you were looking for an argument. OK, one, you're a dumbass. Two, I said I'd be happy to take your money, in US dollars. Three, I pointed out what a buffoon you were defending the 800 yard shot. So you're a dumb bastard claiming to be the super marksman making 800 yard off hand shots. Is that enough material for you to work with?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

.

THIS!

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

.

THIS!

Yep! He probably has never been out west to make the stupid statements he's making! Telling us we aren't hunters if we can't get within 200 yards to make a shot is pure D Bullshit!

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

.

THIS!

Yep! He probably has never been out west to make the stupid statements he's making! Telling us we aren't hunters if we can't get within 200 yards to make a shot is pure D Bullshit!

That explains why there's no bow or muzzle loader season west of the Mississippi; can't get within 200 yards, that's why out westerners shoot 800 yard shots.

There's an excellent chance you'd be lucky to hit a 3 foot square target off hand at 300 yards much less 800.

Congratulations Accurate Reloading Members.

Once again another discussion that proves that Hunters as a group, simply can not resist from openly displaying WHY hunting will be lost.

This one is worthy of being moved to the Crater!

It could be titled "Who is the REAL Hunter, And WHO is the SLOB!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

.

THIS!

Yep! He probably has never been out west to make the stupid statements he's making! Telling us we aren't hunters if we can't get within 200 yards to make a shot is pure D Bullshit!

That explains why there's no bow or muzzle loader season west of the Mississippi; can't get within 200 yards, that's why out westerners shoot 800 yard shots.

There's an excellent chance you'd be lucky to hit a 3 foot square target off hand at 300 yards much less 800.

Now you're really showing your fuggin ignorance, as there are a lot of bow and ML seasons in the states west of the big river. In fact, I was just out in Wyoming for two months and the first two weeks were spent helping a friend on an archery elk hunt. In case you're as dumb as you appear from your posts, we get a lot closer with a bow than your 200 yard BS statements! I also never said anything about shooting out to 800 yards and, in fact, because of my bad eyes generally limit my shots to around 300 Yards or less. Shooting at any distance requires a good support of some kind, so your retort about off handing at 300 and 800 yards was also dumber than dumb! Question for ya boobie---Do you hunt at all or just sit at your computer and come up with one dumbass post after another?!!!

Please don't judge us east of the Mississippi by this guy.....This whole thread is foolishness. Shoot within your limits and practice at the distances your comfortable with.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Please don't judge us east of the Mississippi by this guy.....This whole thread is foolishness. Shoot within your limits and practice at the distances your comfortable with.

Amen Brother, Amen!

I will let my ability/equipment/situation dictate the range I shoot at game.

The requirements, limitations and or morals of another hunter will not affect my maximum shooting range.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I will let my ability/equipment/situation dictate the range I shoot at game.

The requirements, limitations and or morals of another hunter will not affect my maximum shooting range.

Precisely!

We get a lot of people come to shoot here, many are just normal individuals who enjoy shooting.

Some, however, tend to come with all sorts of claims of how good they are.

A classic example was an individual brought here by a friend.

He claimed he was a member of the elite British military, the SAS.

As soon as he got hold of a bolt action rifle, and they way he handled it, I know something was definitely wrong here.

He did not shoot well at all with the rifle.

Then he claimed he was much better with a pistol.

I gave him a Browning P35, and a box of 50 9mm ammo.

At 25 yards, he did not manage to put one single bullet in the target!!

He still insisted he was from the SAS.

A friend here said "was your job cleaning toilets??"

We never saw that guy here again

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am going to take a guess and say that you have had a rather limited hunting experience in the areas you hunt.

.

THIS!

Yep! He probably has never been out west to make the stupid statements he's making! Telling us we aren't hunters if we can't get within 200 yards to make a shot is pure D Bullshit!

That explains why there's no bow or muzzle loader season west of the Mississippi; can't get within 200 yards, that's why out westerners shoot 800 yard shots.

There's an excellent chance you'd be lucky to hit a 3 foot square target off hand at 300 yards much less 800.

Now you're really showing your fuggin ignorance, as there are a lot of bow and ML seasons in the states west of the big river. In fact, I was just out in Wyoming for two months and the first two weeks were spent helping a friend on an archery elk hunt. In case you're as dumb as you appear from your posts, we get a lot closer with a bow than your 200 yard BS statements! I also never said anything about shooting out to 800 yards and, in fact, because of my bad eyes generally limit my shots to around 300 Yards or less. Shooting at any distance requires a good support of some kind, so your retort about off handing at 300 and 800 yards was also dumber than dumb! Question for ya boobie---Do you hunt at all or just sit at your computer and come up with one dumbass post after another?!!!

Wow, nothing gets by you does it. Have you meet just a hunter? With his eloquence and your deductive reasoning, the possibilities are limitless. Two whole months "out west"?

THIS![/QUOTE]



There's an excellent chance you'd be lucky to hit a 3 foot square target off hand at 300 yards much less 800.[/QUOTE]

Why do you keep mentioning off hand shots. The bulk of long range shots are taken prone off a solid rest like a bipod

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

Wow, nothing gets by you does it. Have you meet just a hunter? With his eloquence and your deductive reasoning, the possibilities are limitless. Two whole months "out west"?

I personally know just-a-hunter

Dick from Austin.....No


......it's discussions like this that have eroded this once great forum to the sad state that it sits in today

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

Wow, nothing gets by you does it. Have you meet just a hunter? With his eloquence and your deductive reasoning, the possibilities are limitless. Two whole months "out west"?

I personally know just-a-hunter

Dick from Austin.....No


......it's discussions like this that have eroded this once great forum to the sad state that it sits in today

Yep, it's amazing how one jackass sitting at home that probably doesn't know a rifle from a shotgun comes on here and disses everything people are saying. My two months out in Wyoming hunting elk, deer, and antelope is probably more hunting than this fool has done in his entire life if he is even a hunter from the dumbass statements he keeps coming up with. Notice the last few posts are strictly mocking other members and have nothing in them to back up his initial post, which was more than stupid and they have just continued to get worse. In conclusion, I think Dick is the perfect name for this idiot!

This thread will likely go on and on...flame wars usually do.

And, after some reflection, people will realize that nobody's opinion will have changed about anything.

Then you ask yourself...Why did I get involved in a flame war on the internet? What a waste of time.

Born out West in clear cold air, raised sneaking up on things with a BB gun, 22, 32-20, 30-30 but learned to shoot far if needed as life went on. Shot a lot of pistol, rifle and no shotgun until college in NY. Anyway,was back in NY, Upstate a few years after college and had a NY college friend over and he was telling me about his dad war stories and shooting with his NM Model 70 target grade rifle etc. and he made the comment, "the 1911 45 acp handgun was useless in battle. Could not hit a man at 50 yards with one..." I told him his dad was very wrong and he took great offense to that. So I dug out my 1911 and said "follow me." Walked outside and their was metal object, that looked a lot like a "Corner here" sign about 175 yards away. maybe three feet high and 2 feet wide? I asked him what he would like to be on me hitting that sign with the 45. He said "anything you want..." and since I am really not a betting man, told him I would settle for an apology if I could hit it. I sat down, leaned back, shot through my legs, First shot missed, I was sure low. Second shot hit the Post holding the metal target that looked a lot like a "corner here" sign. Next five shots hit the target. Bang wait Clink. He said, I can't believe it. I said go look. He ran all the way down looked and all the way back laughing, glad to apologize.
Sometimes one has to measure the depth of their experience, ability and indeed thinking before launching attacks that don't take into consideration; Kindness, humility, and the other guys experience, ability and indeed thinking.
Have a great day!

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

Wow, nothing gets by you does it. Have you meet just a hunter? With his eloquence and your deductive reasoning, the possibilities are limitless. Two whole months "out west"?

I personally know just-a-hunter

Dick from Austin.....No


......it's discussions like this that have eroded this once great forum to the sad state that it sits in today

Yep, it's amazing how one jackass sitting at home that probably doesn't know a rifle from a shotgun comes on here and disses everything people are saying. My two months out in Wyoming hunting elk, deer, and antelope is probably more hunting than this fool has done in his entire life if he is even a hunter from the dumbass statements he keeps coming up with. Notice the last few posts are strictly mocking other members and have nothing in them to back up his initial post, which was more than stupid and they have just continued to get worse. In conclusion, I think Dick is the perfect name for this idiot!

Just to keep things in perspective, my original comment was only how I felt about it for me, I made no comment on other people. You guys did that. I guess it is hard to take you serious. I will confess to having a laugh at your expense, as I do live "out west". I don't get as big a laugh out of your constant referring to how many, that is not my measure of success. I like to hunt for the best I can find, not just pull the trigger because I had the opportunity. Here's one for you and sheephunter.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I wouldn't consider myself much of a hunter if I couldn't get within 200 yards, which is my personal limitation. And for me, that's a long shot.
I guess you could mount a 50 bmg and computer operate it from home and say you were hunting. Sounds just as sporting as 800 yd shots.

Bullshit! This was your first post and it essentially says that anyone that shoots further than your self imposed limit of 200 yards or less is not a hunter! You keep putting words in everyone's mouths every time you make a post and your last one talking about people shooting a lot of game is also BS because nobody on this thread has said one word about killing a bunch of animals, including myself. The two months I was in Wyoming I only had one tag myself and I took a big mule deer at 175 yards. Yep, within your self imposed 200 yards, LOL! So you live out west huh? Let me guess---probably a friggin Lib out in La La land living with a bunch of the other fruits and nuts who are trying to ruin the country by imposing their way of living on everyone else!

.My God is there no end to your stupidity? When I say "myself", I mean just that, myself, as in me alone. That would not be "anyone". As to putting words into "everyones" (is that a cry for help?) mouth, no, I speak for myself only. You should try it. Oh, and once again, everything you say and try to project is completely wrong. But you never seem to tire from getting it wrong. Stupidity comes natural to you.

In the immortal words of Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

And this is precisely what is wrong with hunters as a community. We judge the way other hunters do things particularly if it is outside of the norm for us. I for one don't like it when some pose their limitations on others. As long as you are hunting within the limits of the law, who are we to criticize?? That was a rhetorical question.

Oh, and betting against our host Saeed's experience is a losing battle.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
.My God is there no end to your stupidity? When I say "myself", I mean just that, myself, as in me alone. That would not be "anyone". As to putting words into "everyones" (is that a cry for help?) mouth, no, I speak for myself only. You should try it. Oh, and once again, everything you say and try to project is completely wrong. But you never seem to tire from getting it wrong. Stupidity comes natural to you.

Okay Dick! I think we've got it now. You make posts dissing everyone shooting over your self imposed 200 yards and follow it with with your "50BMG" comment and "sounds just as sporting as 800 yards shots" even though you say you're only talking about yourself. Now you're calling people stupid that can read exactly what you wrote and know exactly what it meant. Maybe you have no idea what you're typing because if it was as you say and you're only referring to yourself there would have been no reason for you to have even made a post on this thread! I'm sure you'll come back with another little ditty or two, but why not prove me wrong and just STFU!!!

Beauty ram Richard....where'd you take him?

Thank you Sheephunter. He came from your neck of the woods, Jasper.

Topgun . (my, aren't we modest), I was not calling people stupid. Why do you constantly attempt to include others? I specifically called you stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Thank you Sheephunter. He came from your neck of the woods, Jasper.

LOL

No really....where? It's a great looking ram. Yours?