quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:
I had hoped moving from Colorado to Idaho might have brought some relief from the wannabe sniper crowd. Just had a deer stalk interrupted by 6 rounds fired from a public road at least 600 yards away. And of course the morons didn't even bother to check to see if they hit anything. I'm doing that for them now. It's a free country and if you think shooting animals at 600 yards has anything to do with hunting then continue. Just know I'm not the only one that thinks your a disgrace.

What ever there as always been slob hunters don't lump the into the same category as people who take their long range shooting seriously.

If you really want to be sportsman go back to using a stick and rock ever better your bare hands and teeth .

quote:

That's not practicing, that's putting a hole in a target. It takes practice to maintain proficiency. One shot does not accomplish this

After shooting for well over 50 years and tens of thousands of rounds down range, taking one rifle to the range to confirm its zero is all some of us have to do. Before taking it hunting.

quote:

I think the true slob is the one who dusts off his deer rifle the night before opening day, assuming his setup is good to go.

Or just a old fart that kills one every year with his rifle. My dad was like that after a long life of shooting and hunting and hundreds of head of big game under his belt .

When he hit 80 he just didn't feel like shooting a lot. But still went hunting and killed his game.

Curious as to why dollar signs were used.

Different Strokes For Different Folks, One Size Does Not Fit All.

Some folks simply like to shoot. I did at one time, but as I got older, I found that I enjoyed hunting a whole lot more if I did not get all strung out on trying to achieve perfection.

I also realized that unlike a stationary paper target, critters normally don't stand still waiting for a hunter to fire a three shot group for MOA.

I learned that if I went to the range and put the first shot where I wanted it to go, then I was going to save myself stress/energy and time, by simply putting it back in its case and moving along to something else.

To each their own, but to label other hunters as slobs simply because they have developed a system that WORKS for them does not seem reasonable.

I'm so confused by all this.

Would someone please just tell me how far I can/should shoot lest I disrupt something in your universe.

Why do we need to be so vague and use the term "long range"? Just tell me the goddamned range at which I should be shooting so I don't offend.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I'm so confused by all this.

Would someone please just tell me how far I can/should shoot lest I disrupt something in your universe.

Why do we need to be so vague and use the term "long range"? Just tell me the goddamned range at which I should be shooting so I don't offend.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I'm so confused by all this.

Would someone please just tell me how far I can/should shoot lest I disrupt something in your universe.

Why do we need to be so vague and use the term "long range"? Just tell me the goddamned range at which I should be shooting so I don't offend.

Zeke

Pure comedic gold!

For Zeke, the cap is at 75 yards.

I hate to tell you this [it's a secret] but if you still have Colorado plates on your truck they were probably just shooting in your general direction.

it's a game we like to play with people from Utah, California, Oregon and Colorado. [people from Nevada are cool with us]
sometimes we take the game into round 2 and the local tire shop, hotel, and mechanic gets some extra business.

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I'm so confused by all this.

Would someone please just tell me how far I can/should shoot lest I disrupt something in your universe.

Why do we need to be so vague and use the term "long range"? Just tell me the goddamned range at which I should be shooting so I don't offend.

Zeke

Don't be, it all depends on your real abilities.

As I have mentioned before, there are those who can shoot at whatever range they can hit a target, and they know it too.

And there are those who for all practical purposes should never fire at any past a 100 yards.

Even then they might miss.

Shooting at animals is different than shooting at targets.

I have seen shooters who are incredible at shooting off the bench - frankly, I cannot even come close to them at it.

But, take them out to the bush, and they have a very hard time hitting anything.

At the end of the day, shoot to your ability, regardless of range or conditions.

^^^^^^^^^ yep

As has been posted on AR many times, while you're shooting during the off season to keep your eye in, be sure and practice shooting from field positions.
While I don't shoot at BG at long distances --that's what they make Pdogs for--it's because I like the challenge of stalking close.

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At the end of the day, shoot to your ability, regardless of range or conditions

Saeed
That is the truth, thanks for putting that into words.

Well, the problem is that a lot of folks seriously overestimate their abilities...

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Well, the problem is that a lot of folks seriously overestimate their abilities...

Exactly!!

True, but that has nothing to do with long range shooting in most instances. Doesn't anyone just watch their own bobber anymore? Whatever f*&^ed up anti freedom disease they have going in Kalifornia must be contagious and airborne.

I don't think those guys were 'long range' hunters per say... They were opportunists shooting away at a few animals they saw. Irresponsible and stupid. Any of my friends I hunt with would have killed a deer at that range on the first shot...seen it many times although we've never hunted off a road, or shot from one for that matter...

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I have a perfect solution...

We can mount a laser to our rifles... Doesn't matter the rifle or the scope, that way you still have freedom of choice, but the laser will be set with a permisive attached to the rifles firing mech... We will have to have a vote at what everybody thinks is an ethical range. I think 200 yards would satisfy most even though there are a few that gag at that long of a shot... Anyway this laser will shoot a beam that matches the crosshairs, kinda like the burris eliminator but if the crosshairs don't read less than 200 yards, it takes away the rifles permisive to fire. 201 and you are out of luck.

It will also need a GPS chip in it as well to determine if you are far enough off the road or too close to a place you shouldn't be hunting. And if you are on public ground at certain dates it will take away the permisive to fire just to keep honest guys honest and not let them poach if they don't have a tag. It will also be safe from firing in city limits...

The only way to get a tag is if you have proved to the state your rifle is equiped with this devise and anybody caught hunting without one will get a hefty fine and never be allowed to hunt again....

We can call it the Elite Hunter Rifle Permisive System and all our angst against each other will go away and nobody will be allowed to be a disgrace any more...

Think I'll fire off an email to the Hilary campain and see if they will approve, that way we hunters can quit offending those folks as well...

Todd

Priceless!!!!!!!

Doping wind is the hardest part of long range shooting, I shoot F-Class, short, middle and long. Nobody dopes wind correctly with the first shot unless it's a fluke in windy conditions.
To the OP, grouping long range hunters in with a group of hunters shooting from a road with obvious little knowledge or skill at what they were doing is just downright obnoxious.
I shoot long range at game, but no shot is taken if there are ANY doubts as to causing a miss, or worse, a bad hit that only wounds the animal. I have personal limits that I do not stretch, there is a BIG difference between scoring badly on paper to causing an injured animal you may not recover. We DO NOT shoot if we cannot gauge the wind, you must understand that we have up to 3 spotters at different ranges taking wind readings and barometric readings parralel to the firing corridor, it is not guess work.
I will not go into the ranges we shoot at, I dom't need another thread disintegrating into an ethics debate.
BTW, I also stalk deer, not all my hunting is done at long range, even though I enjoy the challenge of doing so, less than 10% of my hunting is at long range, but my target shooting is all at or above 300yrds.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
Doping wind is the hardest part of long range shooting, I shoot F-Class, short, middle and long. Nobody dopes wind correctly with the first shot unless it's a fluke in windy conditions.
To the OP, grouping long range hunters in with a group of hunters shooting from a road with obvious little knowledge or skill at what they were doing is just downright obnoxious.
I shoot long range at game, but no shot is taken if there are ANY doubts as to causing a miss, or worse, a bad hit that only wounds the animal. I have personal limits that I do not stretch, there is a BIG difference between scoring badly on paper to causing an injured animal you may not recover. We DO NOT shoot if we cannot gauge the wind, you must understand that we have up to 3 spotters at different ranges taking wind readings and barometric readings parralel to the firing corridor, it is not guess work.
I will not go into the ranges we shoot at, I dom't need another thread disintegrating into an ethics debate.
BTW, I also stalk deer, not all my hunting is done at long range, even though I enjoy the challenge of doing so, less than 10% of my hunting is at long range, but my target shooting is all at or above 300yrds.

Cheers.

Here's 416's post and it's worth a second read for those who are confused about LR shooting/hunting.

99.9% of the "negative issues" that some folks experience with LR shooters are NOT from LR shooters but simply from slobs. There's a HUGE difference and you should spot the differences.

Zeke

PS: I thought Todd's "permissive" device is a classic! Good one bro!

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Is it ethical to shoot at an animal - ie., beyond ~500 yds - when you know you could have stalked closer and increased the odds of a clean kill?

Just asking.

No one has answered this question!!

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

Geedubya

That picture is a real classic. Great photo shopping!!

quote:

There is no way you can know with certainty you can sneak closer, way to many variables.

Todd

The same can be said about shooting at BG at distance. One main difference is if you get busted during a stalk, the animal runs away unhurt. That isn't always true if you're shooting at distance. One of the hardest things about shooting near and far is doping the wind.

If you've done enough and can analyse your results you know what's a chip shot, what requires concentration and at what range/what conditions your performance starts to fall off.

I'll shoot fallow out to 200yards without thinking. From there until 250 I have to really concentrate, past that and I'd rather pass. That's with a sporting weight 7-08 with 6x42 that's as at home in the woods as it is on the fields.

Smack - love the 338Edge - a true hunting long range style rig. What stock is that?

600 yards really isn't long-range anymore. With the right gear and some practice pretty well any shooter with an accurate 30-06 can be lethal at that range. It's a different world out there...600 would be medium range these days. That said, slobs are slobs regardless of range.

Me, I like to spot game then withdraw in the opposite direction, preferably closer to my rig and hot coffee. A nice, technical killing shot at 1,000 is so satisfying and even more so when I can drive to the animal and load with a winch.

quote:

so when I can drive to the animal and load with a winch

I shot a buck with my bow at a long 18 yards it ran 75 feet towards my drive way dropped dead at the edge of my lawn. Had to drag it further away to gut it than back again

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Me, I like to spot game then withdraw in the opposite direction, preferably closer to my rig and hot coffee. A nice, technical killing shot at 1,000 is so satisfying and even more so when I can drive to the animal and load with a winch.

I actually know some people who this in South Africa.

They are very good shots, use accurate rifles, and don't mind how many shots they fire at game.

Not my cup of tea at all.

I do shoot at animals at relatively long distances in Africa - when I am comfortable, and one has no other choice.

I too have an issue with the guys who are shooting well past 400 yards.

Any time that time of flight is a substantial part of 1 second, you have time for the animal to move suddenly.

To some extent, the issues with long range shooters is slobbism, but I have said before, and gotten booed pretty hard, maybe the point for all these folks who say they are 90%+ at 800 or whatever, is say that if that is so, if you shoot at an extended range shot (for my purposes over 400 yards) you punched your ticket. You are allowed to shoot at extreme distance, but you take that shot, you have been assumed to have hit that animal and it is your bagged animal.

After all, your claim is you never miss...

Yes, it's a hard thing to police, but after hunting an area after "best of the west" or some other long range TV group (per my guide) was out there and finding 3 gut shot deer, I don't have much time for it.

I've hunted in the Rocky Mountain West for decades, and it's very rare in my experience to have no other choice but to shoot over 500 yds.

It's rare not to be able to get within 300 yds.

Isn't stalking part of the fun of hunting. For me, it's the thrilling part.

I have nothing against being "long-range capable," but IMO a good hunter should also be "stalking-closer capable."

Anyone who has hunted sheep or speed goats or Vaal Rhebucks knows that 300 yards can be an amazingly close distance. Better be prepared to make the long shot with many species in many places in the world.

However if you are so motivated to attempt to stalk within "sporting distances", be prepared to go home empty handed.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Anyone who has hunted sheep or speed goats or Vaal Rhebucks knows that 300 yards can be an amazingly close distance. Better be prepared to make the long shot with many species in many places in the world.

However if you are so motivated to attempt to stalk within "sporting distances", be prepared to go home empty handed.

Likewise, if you're going to shoot over 500 yds, be prepared to go home empty handed, especially if there's significant wind.

The only time it is truly necessary to take a long range shot is if an animal is wounded and the long range shot is the best option due to timing or conditions. It is not "necessary" to take the long range shot because you won't get an animal if you don't. It is an ego-building choice which is made. I shoot some "F" class from time to time and do pretty well at it. I do not shoot at animals at long range. I resent being told that I should only hunt with iron sights because I prefer to stalk close.
I know quite a few guys who like to shoot game at long range. Mostly they are nice enough guys and some are damn good shots. If they are capable, it's hard to argue with their methods. For myself, I KNOW I can usually hit a pie plate at 800 yards and I don't feel the need to try it on a deer, elk, or sheep. I've nothing to prove in that regard and if necessary, I can prove it at the next match. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I've hunted in the Rocky Mountain West for decades, and it's very rare in my experience to have no other choice but to shoot over 500 yds.

It's those rare opportunities that some of us prepare with extensive practice and good gear. There seems to be this notion that long range guys only shoot long range and are somehow inept hunters. I can't speak for anyone but myself but getting closer is always desirable but there are those "rare" circumstances. You can be both a close range and long range shooter. They aren't mutually exclusive!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The only time it is truly necessary to take a long range shot is if an animal is wounded and the long range shot is the best option due to timing or conditions. It is not "necessary" to take the long range shot because you won't get an animal if you don't. It is an ego-building choice which is made. I shoot some "F" class from time to time and do pretty well at it. I do not shoot at animals at long range. I resent being told that I should only hunt with iron sights because I prefer to stalk close.
I know quite a few guys who like to shoot game at long range. Mostly they are nice enough guys and some are damn good shots. If they are capable, it's hard to argue with their methods. For myself, I KNOW I can usually hit a pie plate at 800 yards and I don't feel the need to try it on a deer, elk, or sheep. I've nothing to prove in that regard and if necessary, I can prove it at the next match. Regards, Bill

And I resent being told I only take the very rare long range shot to boost my ego. So far it's been to fill the freezer but carry on bashing!

No, it hasn't been to fill the freezer; it's been to fill the tag. If you did not take the shot, you wouldn't starve. It might have meant you wouldn't fill a tag but that doesn't rise to the level of "necessity".
That aside, I don't think I was bashing. As I said, when people are capable, I can't argue with their methods. I only said it is a choice made, not out of necessity but in the interest of "sport". Since we all hunt for sport (I doubt that anyone on this board has to hunt for sustenance), I can hardly say my way is the only way.
I have taken some longish shots in the past and was successful. Back then, it was more important to me to fill the tag. Today, I would probably pass and try again tomorrow. Again, this doesn't mean that people who take that long shot are wrong but it is unlikely they are doing it out of necessity unless the qualification is a little different for them than for me. They are taking that shot because that is how they want to fill that tag.
By the way, given the accuracy and availability of rangefinders, the most difficult part of the equation, range esimation, has been taken care of and what use to be a long shot is more do-able now. Again, not bashing, just choosing to do things differently. Regards, Bill

No I wouldn't starve but I enjoy the meat...it serves zero purpose for my ego....so yes, it is to fill my freezer!

I few years back I met a hunter in camp who had been to a long-range shooting school (I think Colorado) where he had been “taught” how to shoot at ~1000 yds and the like.

Also, as part of the course he purchased a 30-378 Weatherby along with abundant 180 gr ammo that had been "loaded" at 3300 fps. His gun/scope combo was set-up for this ammo.

He was quite confident in his expertise.

That fall he went hunting and reported killing a deer at ~800 yds, which he’d hit after missing the first 2 or 3 times. The final “kill” shot turned out to be a gut shot that slowed the deer significantly enough that they were able to recover the animal. It was quite a nice trophy.

For this specific deer hunt, I asked how he had measured wind and air density (elevation/absolute barometric pressure and air temperature) and how he had made adjustments for these parameters. Also, I asked what the BC was for the bullet he was using and what his personal chronograph had measured his ammo’s velocity.

I was going to ask him his feelings about spin drift, coriolis effect, pre-hunt practice, etc., but I didn’t because he told he didn’t worry about air density and he hadn’t personally measured his bullets velocity. These details didn’t concern him.

He had just started shooting at 800 yds according the “proper cross-hair” on his ballistic reticle and that he took the word of those who sold him the gun and ammo at the long-range shooting school. At least he was using a range finder.

It's amazing how a little knowledge can make someone dangerous.

I didn’t bring the topic up again and went on with my hunt.