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| one of us |
I started this as a new post so it did not have a lot of trash attached. It is for interesting info only. My father had live stock that a bear was getting into. The government trapper had us help him set up a bare foot snare. A couple of days later he was in the trap - as found by a horse and rider that had been sleepwalking ... The trapper had a 17 Remington that he had bought for coyotes. He insisted on shooting that bear with it. He walked up to the front of it, shot it between the eyes and whooomph it dropped like a balloon with all the wind suddenly let out of it. It was a black bear - don't know how tall, but my father and I could not lift it. Please don't try this at home!!! Just for info. | ||
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| one of us |
Wyoman, Back in the late 60s/early 70s,Vern Juneke (sp?),killed a grizzly with his little 17 Mach IV for publicity purposes. Elephants have been killed with a 22 LR,so a black bear under a controlled enviroment with a 17 Remington would be fairly simple.Heck,a good friend of my dad's killed a black bear that held the state record for weight in California for many years with one shot with a 22 Short.The world's record grizzly bear that stood for several decades was killed by a Native American woman with a Stephens Favorite in 22 Short. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I find that hard to believe. After all many of the experienced big game hunters on this forum have already made it very clear that these dimunitive cartridges cannot penetrate deep enough to reach the brain of a bear let alone kill it. Consider Jim Brady he was shot in the head with a 22 LR, is he dead, NO. The 22 and the 17 cannot have done this. Just ask the experts here if you don't believe me. Casey | |||
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One of Us |
P.O. Ackleys Volume II does a good job of pimping the sub-calibers including a pic of a Black taken with a .17 Javelina. It mentions plans to try a .17 Mag on a brown bear "to see what happens" but doesnt get to any results. | |||
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| <Peter Walker> |
When we killed a beef every fall for winter meat it was shot in between the eyes with a 22LR. Skull on 3 year old dry cow is about 1/2inch thick. The old skulls showed the bullet travelled about 2 1/2 inches past the brain into the first and sometimes second vertebrae of the spine. Never had to shoot one twice. I was hauling a breeding bull to the auction in a borrowed trailer, the trailer had a dry rotted floor and the bulls back leg dropped through hit the road and broke. The only firearm the closest neighbour had was a 22 Browning automatic. Shot that bull between the eyes and down he went. Live weight would have been 2300 pounds, I guess his skull would have been half again as thick as a dry cow. ...Peter | ||
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| one of us |
If the ol' 22LR is so potent why do we need all these new super magnums? Wouldn't we be just fine with the 257 Roberts, 243 Win, 30-06, 30-30, 25-35, etc? I mean these cartridges would give us a little more umph than the 22LR to compensate for teh variations in field shots. Casey | |||
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| one of us |
The 22 works when you have time to place the shot in the right place. Under most hunting situations you do not have it. Besides it is fun owning and talking about all the cal's out there. | |||
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| <Boris> |
My nam is Boris! Killing is not escuse for me. But i dont think one should shot a elefent witt a LR. I hav shot many deer witt a 22 longrifle. At one shot a big beer witt a 7,62 russian. It fell out instant. Happy hunter and bless you. | ||
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| <Peter Walker> |
Casey It's not that the 22lr is the be all and end all of cartridges. Just a little example of how deadly the little buggers are. As pdog pointed out in controlled situations a 22lr is plenty potent. Thats why they have the warning on the box, KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. ...Peter | ||
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| one of us |
Glad this turned into a fun topic! An interesting story is about a bear called Old Ephraim in northern Utah. A sheep herder trapped him, he came after the herder who had a 25-35. http://www.n1.net/~wilsonda/cache/ephraim.htm 7 shots at close range with a 25-35. I think I would want my 300wm. :-) | |||
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| one of us |
I killed many a deer with my Win. M-63 22 L.R. automatic during my mispent cowboy youth in Mexico, a couple of antelope with a pellet gun..My first 3 elk with a 25-35 Win. still shoot deer with a 25-35... Sure any gun will kill almost any animal but that sure doesn't make any of the above big game rifles.. If one changes his hunting techinque to fit his weapon then it will always work, but you will surly be at a disadvantage and will have to hunt longer and harder to make them work... I suspect I could kill a bear in a trap with a rock if I had to..Saw my dad kill more than one Mt. Lion with a ball pen hammer in a trap...just walked up and wacked him in the head!! But he had a real fear of Bobcats in a trap, they will jump in your face... ------------------ | |||
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| <leo> |
All a bullet has to do is penetrate the brain or neck vertabrae. Jim Brady survived with medical help and so could some animals that weren't killed instantly but neither did Mr. Brady or any animal likely to have the ability to take off with a bullet in the brain. A chest shot whitetail with a .22lr will almost always not be recovered if there is vegetation for it to escape into(no blood trail). | ||
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| one of us |
About killing things in traps I have always wacked yotes and fox with a stick. One good one at the base of the head puts them out then you crush the chest with a boot.. No or very little blood on the pelt and dosen't mess the set up. Always would shoot coon they are just plan tough. Ray is right when it comes to using small cal's if you have the time they work. | |||
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| one of us |
I wasn't suggesting that you hunt everything with a 22LR! I was merely asking the question if the 22LR can kill the animal why do we need to use a 300 Ultra, won't the 30-06 or even the 30-40 Krag or the 30-30 do the job just as well as the Ultra? Put another way. If the 22LR can kill the animal how much overkill do we need in the name of prudence? I really think that most of these new super magnums are too far into the realm of overkill. Casey | |||
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| new member |
quote: Casey, The 22LR is plenty potent enough to kill big game. Hell, cavemen used far less potent weapons falling the wooly mammoths! But it's best potential is if the muzzle is against the animal's brain pan, and I would prefer to be a few yards further back if confronted with a black bear, or elk or anything with claws or horns that is bigger than a field mouse. It has the potential to kill anything, but it has a greater chance of NOT! it's not enough juice to take game cleanly and humanely. JR | |||
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| one of us |
If you read Caseys post it is pretty obvious he is asking whether or not we need the latest supermagnums versus the old reliable 30-06 and 30-30. Come on guys. I really don't think that the 30-06 is as good a performer as the new supermagnums Casey. The 30-30 is probably about as effective as a 22LR when you consider that it has a larger bullet diameter and about the same muzzle velocity as a 22LR so penetration is probably about the same. Kent | |||
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| <leo> |
Kent, the 30-30 is much faster than the .22lr and well known for excellent penetration which no .22lr could compare to. | ||
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| <Loren> |
The key point is range. a .22LR is very potent at 6", much less so at 50 yards. A .30-30 is great out to 150 yards, an -06 to 250-300. Reliability is also an issue. It's fun to see what's happened, it's another issue to plan to do something on purpose. Just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD. | ||
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| One of Us |
Ray, Damn, I wish I had your childhood! Regards, JohnTheGreek | |||
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| one of us |
You guys are trying to tell me that 300 fps is that big a difference. I can tell you from personal experience that a 30-06 is very effective to 500 yards on deer! The 30-30 has about the same effective range as a 12 gauge slug and anyone that says diffently is plain irresponsible. No I would not shoot anything bigger than a rabbit with a 22LR. I don't even use then on cattle anymore since I have had some bad experiences. The 22LR won't even reliably penetrate a hogs skull! Kent | |||
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| one of us |
Kent, You and I have a completely different opinnion on the 30-30 Winchester and as a matter of fact the 30-06 becomes a 30-30 at 300 yds. with factory ammo according to my chronograph and at 400 yds with a hot handload....You consider the 06 a 500 yd. rifle, sooo As to penitration a 30-30 will shoot lenthwise through an elk at up to a couple of hundred yards and I have seen that on more than one ocassion..It will do this because it is slow and expansion is slow and that makes for exceptional penitration... I certainly consider the 30-30 all one needs to 200 yards on deer or elk...beyond that the 30-06 takes over to 300 yds. or so then the 300's come into play...The big 30's are, as you can see, only increasing the range capabilities, nothing more. ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Ray (if I may be so bold with someone I don't know)thanks for the clear statement regarding thuty thuty and 06. No page of stats and no four letter invectives. Just experience. I have used the mighty 22LR for things best not said, and do not recommend it for hunting big game. I did have some fun with the 30-30 170gr flatnose thin skinned bullets in large capacity cases, most impressive on vermin. Don't get to carried away or you will have "missing on target" shots, if you know what I mean. BTW, I used to live in Twin, does Idaho still have that late Blackpowder season just east of 93 on the Nevada border? Best to you. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, I made my comments based off of personal experience. I have seen the 30-30s performance on many many deer at 100 yards or so. The 170 flats penetrate about 12 inches. THATS THE FACTS JACK! Now you say that you chronograph factory A 170 grain flat 30-30 has approximately 1220 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. Factory load. A 180 grain BTSP will have from a 30-06 willhave approximately 1280 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards. In my personal experience again on many many deer the spitzer bullet out penetrates the flat point BIG TIME! The 06 is a better killer at 500 yards than a 30-30 is a 100! Ray you spout off a lot of BS and people on this board seem to beleive you. I find that you change your stories repeatedly as the opinion changes on a particular thread. I wish you would keep your BS to yourself as there are many new guys that believe the crap spewed out in these forums and then try it out in the real world. I fear because of your statements someone will try and kill a deer at 300 yards with a 30-30 and all we hunters will achieve is another POSTER DEER for PETA! We are rapidly loosing hunting rights to private land particularly back east because of such irresponsible behavior or plain ignorance on the part of the hunters. I mean no one likes to see wounded game animals staggering around the countryside. Kent | |||
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Would this .17 caliber make the bear fly back 50 feet? Some buddy who knows...? | |||
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| one of us |
Kent where do you get the 22 is only 300 feet slower then the 30 30 avg 22 vel 1200 fps avg 3030 vel 2200 plus. I guess I have to stick up for Ray Killing deer at 300 yards with a 3030 no trouble as long as I poke em in the lungs. Having killed deer with a 22 the 3030 works much better. Th3 o6 in a better deer killer at 500 the the 3030 at a 100 how so having shot lots of deer with both and other they work just fine> Nothing wrong with shooting deer with any rifle the works in Wis. any center fire 22 cal and over is legal. I have taken a few with 22 hornet and cast bullets. Your point about pissing peta off is wrong trying to apease them doesn't help they don't like you they well not like you so get over thinking that kissing their butt helps. For any of you 3030 owners who want to shoot deer at 300 yards go right ahead hit right and you well have venison in the frezzer. | |||
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| one of us |
I was basing velocity for the 22LR off of the CCI Stinger at 1750 fps. PETA is a small group of idiots. However, the majority of Americans are neither hunters or PETA freaks. Every wounded game animal we hunters allow to run around is political ammunition that PETA uses to pursuade the nonhunting Americans to support antihunting laws. I thought that was rather obvious. I explained it for your benefit seeing that you are from Wisconsin. You can stick up for Ray if you want. I for one don't care too much for Mr Atkinson's wishy washy opinions. He says one thing at one time and then the opposite at another. To me he just plays to the audience. I mean he says what he thinks people want to hear. That fact remains that a 30-30 ballistically is a short range rifle. The bullets it shoots have terrible BC and the flat point much like shotgun slugs do not penetrate well. A very good friend of mine uses a Nect someone will be telling us how effective their wrist rocket sling shot is for killing deer! Kent | |||
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| one of us |
Kent, You must not read very well.Ray said that he cronographed the 30/06 at 300 yards,and it was the same as a 30/30 at the muzzel.BIG difference from what you are saying. If the 30/30 wasn't effective,it wouldn't be the one of the most popular deer cartridges in the country.I have personaly witnessed both Remington and Federal 170 grain loads penetrate through both shoulders on 140-150 pound deer at 100-120 yards. You might want to get YOUR storys straight Kent.The little 222 Remington with a halfway decent 55 grain spitzer will penetrate 12 inches in a deer.Which do you think would penetrate more-the little 222 or the 30/30 loaded with 170s?The Indians and Eskimos of Alaska have been killing moose and grizzly bears with their old 30/30s since it came out in 1895.Would sure like to see you argue your point with an old Eskimo who has killed more moose than you've killed deer with the "puny" 30/30. Comparing the performance of the 30/30 with a 22 LR is so ridiculous it's almost funny.That's like comparing a 223 and a 300 Weatherby because they have simmilar velocitys. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Ok Brian so I got the caliber backward. Still Ray has got one f_cking accurate 3006 to chronograph at 300 yards. Brian do you know how a chronograph works? I also question Ray;s data anyway because it simply is too low. NOW BRIAN REGARDING READING WELL. I NEVER SAID THAT A 22LR WAS COMPARABLE TO A 30-30 IN PERFORMANCE. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THEY HAD ABOUT THE SAME VELOCITY. A 140 POUND WHITE TAIL IS LESS THAN 12 INCHES THICK THROUGH THE SHOULDERS. ANOTHER THING YOU SEEM UNABLE TO COMPREHEND IS THAT BULLETS PERFORM DIFFERENTLY. BULLETS ARE VARIABLES. SO MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MAY DIFFER SLIGHTLY FROM SOMEONE ELSES. Enough yelling. You sir can worship Ray I will not. Actually I think some of you Ray lovers need to get a room. Kent | |||
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Kent, I noticed that once I questioned you,you went nuts.Hmmm. Yes,I know how a cronograph works.As for Ray's 30/06-how do you know it's not accurate enough to cronograph at 300 yards?For all you know he has one in a bench rest rifle that will keep them all within an inch at 300 yards.So don't go calling him a liar before you know even a bare minimum of the facts. You condemed every 30/30,not just yours.You should have claimed in the first place that it was possibly faulty bullet preformance,not the cartridge itself. As for finding nine wounded deer in one season-I somehow doubt that.I spend nearly every day hunting in the national forest during bow and rifle season,and I very,very rarely find a crippled or left-for-dead deer.Most that are crippled are by ignorant hunters who don't look for game that they say they "missed",and it doesn't matter if they were using a 30/30,a 30/06 or a howitzer for the matter. As for worshiping Ray-I do no such thing.I don't care much for him,and in all actuality think he's a joke (sorry Ray!),but I don't see why there is any reason to doubt his claims.He gives cold,hard factual information,and I have never seen him give any wild gueses.If he doesn't know,he doesn't say anything. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-22-2002).] | |||
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| <Salt> |
I got a cousin that has killed more Elk than most people have killed Deer. He uses a .30-30 Winchester M94 rifle. He too has told me that a .30-30 bullet will go lengthwise through an Elk. I think the popularity of the Magnum rifle is due to fashion more than anything else.
[This message has been edited by Salt (edited 02-22-2002).] | ||
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| <john holmes> |
All that shit I heard about IOWA standing for Idiots-Out-Walking-Around,must be true hey kent. | ||
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| one of us |
Kent I have several rifles that well keep them under 2 in's at 300 yard one 06 that well make that easy. Shooting thru a crony in not that hard at all at 300. You must need some new rifles. Think before you type it well stop you from looking dumb. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm not a "Ray lover", but I do enjoy his posts and think his experiences benefit these forums. He did not say that he chronographed 30-30 loads at 300 yds; he did not say that he chronographed 30-06 loads at 300 yards. He said that a 30-06 "becomes" a 30-30 at 300 yards, which you can essentially do by simply comparing ballistics tables. If you don't agree with him, scroll past his posts, but don't bash him for something he didn't say! Bill | |||
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| one of us |
I did look at a ballistics chart and ran some numbers through the ballistics program and more importantly I have seen the results from 500 yard deer shots with a 30-06 and 100 - 150 yard shots from a 30-30. A 30-06 with a good 180 grain BTSP becomes a 30-30 around 500 yards! Can you read? That is what I have been saying. Now regarding all this 30-30 braggin all I have to say is...ITS GETTING MIGHTY DEEP. I have never seen a 12 slug Brenneke or Foster type reliably exit a deer at over 20 yards. You guys that have must have shot deer which are alot less tough than those here in Iowa. For the record I have personally seen well over 200 deer shot with a 12 gauge and 20 gague shotguns. There appears to be little difference. I did shoot 9 wounded/crippled deer this last season sorry you don't believe. Again for the record I prefer Brenneke slugs. I think they work a little better but that isn't saying much. That guy from Montana must not understand how we Midwesterners all pick on each other. My comments about Wisconsin were in jest. People from Wisconsin say the same things aboutr Iowans and Minnesotans and likewise again. One last comment before I leave this romper room crowd. Comparing a 30-30 to a 30-06 is about as stupid as comparing the 22LR to the 30-30. I called this romper room because the comments made by many here are jsut plain silly. Most of it is simply made up crap because they are defending the preferred gun or caliber. Actually I think the 22LR, the 30-30, the 30-06, 12 slugs, etc all SUCK! I like the 300 Win Mag because it can do everything those calibers can but 100 to 2 times better. Just grow up and hunt a little more so you to can uderstand what I am talking about. Kent | |||
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| one of us |
Kent, Hmmm,the 22 LR,30/30 and 30/06 all "suck" and you have no use for them?Guess you guys have really mean and nasty rabbits in your parts if you prefer the 300 Winchester to the 22 LR. You're gettin awfuly upset about nothing.This usually shows the sign of someone who doesn't know much about what they're discussing.Calling everyone else a liar while yours is supposed to be taken as truth is also pretty darn funny. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I have to agree that the 30-30 is a better rifle than some people are making it out to be. Casey [This message has been edited by CASEY (edited 02-23-2002).] [This message has been edited by CASEY (edited 02-23-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
I always get pissed when someone calls me a liar! What pisses me off even more is when the person calling me a liar provides evidence of my offense which doesn't come anywhere near what I have personally witnessed. For example. I hunt whitetail every year with 7 other guys in Iowa and then again up in Wisconsin with three guys. In Iowa with all of our landowners tags etc we have between 15 and 18 tags depending on how many landowners are hunting. We almost always fill these tags. In Wisconsin we will usually bag another 3. Now I have done this for over 20 years. So you can do the math and figure out how many deer I have shot or seen shot. In all that time I can only remember one deer in which a 12 gauge slug completely penetrated the deer. That was a 30-40 pound fawn. Now we all use either brenneke or foster slugs. I have no experience with the sabots on game. Several of us tried them out when we got our rifled slug barrels but accuracy did not improve nearly enough to jsutify $8 - $11 a box so we stayed with the old fashioned lead slugs. In Wisconsin I have used the 06 and a 300 Win Mag. My friend uses a 30-30 and another friend uses his 12 gauge. I also try to make it out west ever few years to try my luck on elk. I apologize to anyone I pissed off with my temper in some previous posts. I hope that after reading the above you understand why I got pissed at being called a liar. Personally, I think that many people that post here have little to any field experience and read too many hunting magazines. While I think Ray Atkinson is a salesman I must confess that generally when he isn't playing to a crowd his hunting experience seems to match my own. If Ray was saying that the 30-06 becomes a 30-30 at 300 yards based off of muzzle energies I suspect that may be true. I was saying that it is more realistic to look at hunting ranges so I did my comparison ar 100 yards. A 30-06 will match a 30-30 100 yard energy level at about 500 yards. Anyone that believes a 30-30 will equal a 30-06 is a fool. I am sorry but that is the plain old truth. For me and those that I know that hunt with the 30-30 150 yards is max. That is a little better than the 12 gauge which we max at 100 yards. I feel these limitations are responsible and ethical. That is another reason why I get pissed about this stuff. I have lost hunting rights in South Dakota and a couple of farms in Iowa due to too many wounded deer walking around during and after deer season. Again I hope those I upset will accept my apology. I also hope that they understand why I got upset and can appreciate my considerable experience with shooting deer. I realize that many hunter will never shoot or see shot in a lifetime what I will in a year that is too bad. Kent | |||
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| one of us |
Kent, You started getting upset the minute everyone didn't toatly agree with you-well before anyone called you a liar. Not everyone is going to have the same experiences as you do with any given cartridge.Not everyone is going to bow down and take everything you say as gospel either,espically if you get pissed immediatley. If those tags are split up between three people,that means you usually kill around 6 deer a year,correct?There are hunters on this board who kill twice that many every year.There is one gentleman here who has killed almost 1,000 whitetails on crop damage permits over the last thirty years.And most people kill more than six deer in their life time,FYI.
[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-24-2002).] [This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-24-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Yeah I personally shoot betweem 1 and 6 deer a year. I personall see about 15 to 20 deer shot each year. So I see the effects of the bullet on 15 to 20 deer every year. I have shot probably about another 100 to 150 deer with the 06 and 300 Win Mag that were either crippled/wounded or on vermin permits over the years. I did not include those in previous tally. See I do not need to personally shoot the animal to see what the bullet did. I agree that everyones bullets won't do precisely what mine have done but by and large the law of averages is going to tell you that if someone has seen between 300 and 400 deer shot with 12 slugs and has not seen complete penetration that this is the norm regardless of local. Unless of course the Iowa deer are just that much tougher. Our deer are corn fed maybe that has something to do with it. What is your problem anyway? I confess to having a short fuse OK. You them come here and bust my chops after I provide an explanation for my bad behavior and an apology. My apology was to everyone not just to you! I mean if you have somekinda problem with me fine tell me about it. I am beginning to think that you just like to fight. Well I am not going to allow you to get me PO'd again. You can believe whatever fairytales you want man. If you are ever in Cleves Iowa with a deer tag look me up. We can go see if your 12 gague slug makes it all the way though. I bet it doesn't. Kent | |||
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