21 February 2002, 09:06
JohnTheGreekDamn, I wish I had your childhood! 
Regards,
JohnTheGreek
My father had live stock that a bear was getting into. The government trapper had us help him set up a bare foot snare. A couple of days later he was in the trap - as found by a horse and rider that had been sleepwalking ...
The trapper had a 17 Remington that he had bought for coyotes. He insisted on shooting that bear with it. He walked up to the front of it, shot it between the eyes and whooomph it dropped like a balloon with all the wind suddenly let out of it. It was a black bear - don't know how tall, but my father and I could not lift it. Please don't try this at home!!! Just for info.
Back in the late 60s/early 70s,Vern Juneke (sp?),killed a grizzly with his little 17 Mach IV for publicity purposes.
Elephants have been killed with a 22 LR,so a black bear under a controlled enviroment with a 17 Remington would be fairly simple.Heck,a good friend of my dad's killed a black bear that held the state record for weight in California for many years with one shot with a 22 Short.The world's record grizzly bear that stood for several decades was killed by a Native American woman with a Stephens Favorite in 22 Short.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
Casey
MFH
I was hauling a breeding bull to the auction in a borrowed trailer, the trailer had a dry rotted floor and the bulls back leg dropped through hit the road and broke. The only firearm the closest neighbour had was a 22 Browning automatic. Shot that bull between the eyes and down he went. Live weight would have been 2300 pounds, I guess his skull would have been half again as thick as a dry cow.
...Peter
Casey
It's not that the 22lr is the be all and end all of cartridges. Just a little example of how deadly the little buggers are. As pdog pointed out in controlled situations a 22lr is plenty potent. Thats why they have the warning on the box, KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN.
...Peter
An interesting story is about a bear called Old Ephraim in northern Utah. A sheep herder trapped him, he came after the herder who had a 25-35. http://www.n1.net/~wilsonda/cache/ephraim.htm
7 shots at close range with a 25-35. I think I would want my 300wm. :-)
Sure any gun will kill almost any animal but that sure doesn't make any of the above big game rifles..
If one changes his hunting techinque to fit his weapon then it will always work, but you will surly be at a disadvantage and will have to hunt longer and harder to make them work...
I suspect I could kill a bear in a trap with a rock if I had to..Saw my dad kill more than one Mt. Lion with a ball pen hammer in a trap...just walked up and wacked him in the head!! But he had a real fear of Bobcats in a trap, they will jump in your face...
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Ray Atkinson
Put another way. If the 22LR can kill the animal how much overkill do we need in the name of prudence? I really think that most of these new super magnums are too far into the realm of overkill.
Casey
quote:
Originally posted by CASEY:
I wasn't suggesting that you hunt everything with a 22LR! I was merely asking the question if the 22LR can kill the animal why do we need to use a 300 Ultra, won't the 30-06 or even the 30-40 Krag or the 30-30 do the job just as well as the Ultra?Put another way. If the 22LR can kill the animal how much overkill do we need in the name of prudence? I really think that most of these new super magnums are too far into the realm of overkill.
Casey
Casey,
The 22LR is plenty potent enough to kill big game. Hell, cavemen used far less potent weapons falling the wooly mammoths! But it's best potential is if the muzzle is against the animal's brain pan, and I would prefer to be a few yards further back if confronted with a black bear, or elk or anything with claws or horns that is bigger than a field mouse.
It has the potential to kill anything, but it has a greater chance of NOT! it's not enough juice to take game cleanly and humanely.
JR
I really don't think that the 30-06 is as good a performer as the new supermagnums Casey. The 30-30 is probably about as effective as a 22LR when you consider that it has a larger bullet diameter and about the same muzzle velocity as a 22LR so penetration is probably about the same.
Kent
Reliability is also an issue. It's fun to see what's happened, it's another issue to plan to do something on purpose. Just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.
Damn, I wish I had your childhood!
Regards,
JohnTheGreek
The 30-30 has about the same effective range as a 12 gauge slug and anyone that says diffently is plain irresponsible.
No I would not shoot anything bigger than a rabbit with a 22LR. I don't even use then on cattle anymore since I have had some bad experiences. The 22LR won't even reliably penetrate a hogs skull!
Kent
As to penitration a 30-30 will shoot lenthwise through an elk at up to a couple of hundred yards and I have seen that on more than one ocassion..It will do this because it is slow and expansion is slow and that makes for exceptional penitration...
I certainly consider the 30-30 all one needs to 200 yards on deer or elk...beyond that the 30-06 takes over to 300 yds. or so then the 300's come into play...The big 30's are, as you can see, only increasing the range capabilities, nothing more.
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Ray Atkinson
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Good Shooting!
I made my comments based off of personal experience. I have seen the 30-30s performance on many many deer at 100 yards or so. The 170 flats penetrate about 12 inches. THATS THE FACTS JACK!
Now you say that you chronograph factory
30-30 loads at 300 yards! You got one accurate 30-30 man. I mean you are hitting a 2" window with that thing if you are getting accurate measurements. I can tell you this from calculated ballistics.
A 170 grain flat 30-30 has approximately 1220 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. Factory load.
A 180 grain BTSP will have from a 30-06 willhave approximately 1280 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards.
In my personal experience again on many many deer the spitzer bullet out penetrates the flat point BIG TIME! The 06 is a better killer at 500 yards than a 30-30 is a 100!
Ray you spout off a lot of BS and people on this board seem to beleive you. I find that you change your stories repeatedly as the opinion changes on a particular thread. I wish you would keep your BS to yourself as there are many new guys that believe the crap spewed out in these forums and then try it out in the real world. I fear because of your statements someone will try and kill a deer at 300 yards with a 30-30 and all we hunters will achieve is another POSTER DEER for PETA! We are rapidly loosing hunting rights to private land particularly back east because of such irresponsible behavior or plain ignorance on the part of the hunters. I mean no one likes to see wounded game animals staggering around the countryside.
Kent
Some buddy who knows...? 
You can stick up for Ray if you want. I for one don't care too much for Mr Atkinson's wishy washy opinions. He says one thing at one time and then the opposite at another. To me he just plays to the audience. I mean he says what he thinks people want to hear.
That fact remains that a 30-30 ballistically is a short range rifle. The bullets it shoots have terrible BC and the flat point much like shotgun slugs do not penetrate well. A very good friend of mine uses a
30-30 up in Wisconsin. I have hunted with him many times and have seen the damage done. It is not impressive. I have taken my 06, 300 Win Mag, and 12 gauge. Everyone one of them is better than a 30-30! The 12 gauge and the 30-30 penetrate almost the same with slight edge going to the 30-30. The 12 gauge however produces a much BIGGER HOLE and kills much much BETTER!
Nect someone will be telling us how effective their wrist rocket sling shot is for killing deer!
Kent
If the 30/30 wasn't effective,it wouldn't be the one of the most popular deer cartridges in the country.I have personaly witnessed both Remington and Federal 170 grain loads penetrate through both shoulders on 140-150 pound deer at 100-120 yards.
You might want to get YOUR storys straight Kent.The little 222 Remington with a halfway decent 55 grain spitzer will penetrate 12 inches in a deer.Which do you think would penetrate more-the little 222 or the 30/30 loaded with 170s?The Indians and Eskimos of Alaska have been killing moose and grizzly bears with their old 30/30s since it came out in 1895.Would sure like to see you argue your point with an old Eskimo who has killed more moose than you've killed deer with the "puny" 30/30.
Comparing the performance of the 30/30 with a 22 LR is so ridiculous it's almost funny.That's like comparing a 223 and a 300 Weatherby because they have simmilar velocitys.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
NOW BRIAN REGARDING READING WELL. I NEVER SAID THAT A 22LR WAS COMPARABLE TO A 30-30 IN PERFORMANCE. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THEY HAD ABOUT THE SAME VELOCITY. A 140 POUND WHITE TAIL IS LESS THAN 12 INCHES THICK THROUGH THE SHOULDERS. ANOTHER THING YOU SEEM UNABLE TO COMPREHEND IS THAT BULLETS PERFORM DIFFERENTLY. BULLETS ARE VARIABLES. SO MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MAY DIFFER SLIGHTLY FROM SOMEONE ELSES.
REGARDING ESKIMOS. WELL THESE ARE EXPERIENCED HUNTERS THAT UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATION OF THEIR RIFLES. NOT YAHOOS BLASTING AWAY AT ANYTHING THAT MOVES. WOUNDING MANY ANIMALS IN THE PROCESS. FOR YOUR INFO I SHOT 9 WOUNDED DEER THIS YEAR THAT IDIOTS LEFT TO DIE, BUT MIRACULOUSLY DID NOT DIE JUST LEFT CRIPPLED.
Enough yelling. You sir can worship Ray I will not. Actually I think some of you Ray lovers need to get a room.
Kent
Yes,I know how a cronograph works.As for Ray's 30/06-how do you know it's not accurate enough to cronograph at 300 yards?For all you know he has one in a bench rest rifle that will keep them all within an inch at 300 yards.So don't go calling him a liar before you know even a bare minimum of the facts.
You condemed every 30/30,not just yours.You should have claimed in the first place that it was possibly faulty bullet preformance,not the cartridge itself.
As for finding nine wounded deer in one season-I somehow doubt that.I spend nearly every day hunting in the national forest during bow and rifle season,and I very,very rarely find a crippled or left-for-dead deer.Most that are crippled are by ignorant hunters who don't look for game that they say they "missed",and it doesn't matter if they were using a 30/30,a 30/06 or a howitzer for the matter.
As for worshiping Ray-I do no such thing.I don't care much for him,and in all actuality think he's a joke (sorry Ray!),but I don't see why there is any reason to doubt his claims.He gives cold,hard factual information,and I have never seen him give any wild gueses.If he doesn't know,he doesn't say anything.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-22-2002).]
He too has told me that a .30-30 bullet will go lengthwise through an Elk.
I think the popularity of the Magnum rifle is due to fashion more than anything else.
[This message has been edited by Salt (edited 02-22-2002).]
If you don't agree with him, scroll past his posts, but don't bash him for something he didn't say!
Bill
Now regarding all this 30-30 braggin all I have to say is...ITS GETTING MIGHTY DEEP. I have never seen a 12 slug Brenneke or Foster type reliably exit a deer at over 20 yards. You guys that have must have shot deer which are alot less tough than those here in Iowa. For the record I have personally seen well over 200 deer shot with a 12 gauge and 20 gague shotguns. There appears to be little difference.
I did shoot 9 wounded/crippled deer this last season sorry you don't believe. Again for the record I prefer Brenneke slugs. I think they work a little better but that isn't saying much.
That guy from Montana must not understand how we Midwesterners all pick on each other. My comments about Wisconsin were in jest. People from Wisconsin say the same things aboutr Iowans and Minnesotans and likewise again.
One last comment before I leave this romper room crowd. Comparing a 30-30 to a 30-06 is about as stupid as comparing the 22LR to the 30-30. I called this romper room because the comments made by many here are jsut plain silly. Most of it is simply made up crap because they are defending the preferred gun or caliber. Actually I think the 22LR, the 30-30, the 30-06, 12 slugs, etc all SUCK! I like the 300 Win Mag because it can do everything those calibers can but 100 to 2 times better. Just grow up and hunt a little more so you to can uderstand what I am talking about.
Kent
Hmmm,the 22 LR,30/30 and 30/06 all "suck" and you have no use for them?Guess you guys have really mean and nasty rabbits in your parts if you prefer the 300 Winchester to the 22 LR.
You're gettin awfuly upset about nothing.This usually shows the sign of someone who doesn't know much about what they're discussing.Calling everyone else a liar while yours is supposed to be taken as truth is also pretty darn funny.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
Casey
[This message has been edited by CASEY (edited 02-23-2002).]
[This message has been edited by CASEY (edited 02-23-2002).]
For example. I hunt whitetail every year with 7 other guys in Iowa and then again up in Wisconsin with three guys. In Iowa with all of our landowners tags etc we have between 15 and 18 tags depending on how many landowners are hunting. We almost always fill these tags. In Wisconsin we will usually bag another 3. Now I have done this for over 20 years. So you can do the math and figure out how many deer I have shot or seen shot. In all that time I can only remember one deer in which a 12 gauge slug completely penetrated the deer. That was a 30-40 pound fawn. Now we all use either brenneke or foster slugs. I have no experience with the sabots on game. Several of us tried them out when we got our rifled slug barrels but accuracy did not improve nearly enough to jsutify $8 - $11 a box so we stayed with the old fashioned lead slugs.
In Wisconsin I have used the 06 and a 300 Win Mag. My friend uses a 30-30 and another friend uses his 12 gauge. I also try to make it out west ever few years to try my luck on elk.
I apologize to anyone I pissed off with my temper in some previous posts. I hope that after reading the above you understand why I got pissed at being called a liar. Personally, I think that many people that post here have little to any field experience and read too many hunting magazines.
While I think Ray Atkinson is a salesman I must confess that generally when he isn't playing to a crowd his hunting experience seems to match my own. If Ray was saying that the 30-06 becomes a 30-30 at 300 yards based off of muzzle energies I suspect that may be true. I was saying that it is more realistic to look at hunting ranges so I did my comparison ar 100 yards. A 30-06 will match a 30-30 100 yard energy level at about 500 yards. Anyone that believes a 30-30 will equal a 30-06 is a fool. I am sorry but that is the plain old truth. For me and those that I know that hunt with the 30-30 150 yards is max. That is a little better than the 12 gauge which we max at 100 yards. I feel these limitations are responsible and ethical. That is another reason why I get pissed about this stuff. I have lost hunting rights in South Dakota and a couple of farms in Iowa due to too many wounded deer walking around during and after deer season.
Again I hope those I upset will accept my apology. I also hope that they understand why I got upset and can appreciate my considerable experience with shooting deer. I realize that many hunter will never shoot or see shot in a lifetime what I will in a year that is too bad.
Kent
Not everyone is going to have the same experiences as you do with any given cartridge.Not everyone is going to bow down and take everything you say as gospel either,espically if you get pissed immediatley.
If those tags are split up between three people,that means you usually kill around 6 deer a year,correct?There are hunters on this board who kill twice that many every year.There is one gentleman here who has killed almost 1,000 whitetails on crop damage permits over the last thirty years.And most people kill more than six deer in their life time,FYI.
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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!
[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-24-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 02-24-2002).]
What is your problem anyway? I confess to having a short fuse OK. You them come here and bust my chops after I provide an explanation for my bad behavior and an apology. My apology was to everyone not just to you! I mean if you have somekinda problem with me fine tell me about it. I am beginning to think that you just like to fight. Well I am not going to allow you to get me PO'd again. You can believe whatever fairytales you want man. If you are ever in Cleves Iowa with a deer tag look me up. We can go see if your 12 gague slug makes it all the way though. I bet it doesn't.
Kent