Given all the drama about the -06 recently I should not post this. But here goes, from Jeff Cooper's Commentaries:

The King
Doubtless you have noted the recent tendency on the part of various gun writers to denigrate the 30-06 cartridge. The late Charley Askins demonstrated this attitude some years ago in a magazine article, and now we see that a currently active colleague has taken up the tattered banner of iconoclasm again.
The trouble with the 30-06 is that, like Julius Caesar, it is too good. It is not only too good, but it is too old - now only four years short of its centennial. People have been trying to improve upon it since before I was born (and that was a very long time ago), but without success. Its great virtue seems to be its unacceptable versatility, which is a drawback in the age of specialization. I acquired my personal 06 when I was in high school, and while I have obtained a number of other weapons since then, I have never felt a real need to improve upon the cartridge. The 30-06 is nobody's first choice for elephants, nor is it ideal for prairie dogs, but it will suffice for either of those if that is all that is available, and it will account comfortably for everything in between - including Homo sapiens.

The cartridge was deemed too large for optimum portability after the Korean War, and was replaced by the US government with the 7.62 NATO cartridge, or 308 as we call it now. The 308 is a tad smaller than the 06, but this is a minor point to the individual owner, and with the advent of the more modern propellants any power difference between the two cartridges is negligible.

The 30-06 retains a minor, but not inconsiderable, edge over the more modern 308 in its accommodation of the 220-grain bullet, which renders it a practically perfect cartridge for the African buschveldt today, where versatility in one loading can be very useful. The 30-06/220 is eminently suitable for kudu or lion, yet will not tear up an impala or a springbok (whereas the 30-06/150 might).

I grew up on the 30-06, and that makes me a dinosaur, but I am nowise ashamed of that. In my teens I took four-for-four (bighorn through moose) with four shots in Alberta, and I have since taken a fair list of quadrupeds, big and little, with the same round.

Today I might fancy the 308 over the 06 simply because I can get it in Scout configuration. The Scout, after all, comes over-the-counter in 308. The difference in "field effect" between the 308/150 and 30-06/150 is negligible, so the handiness of the Scout favors it in high mountains and tundra. If the hunter is going to ride around in vehicles, however, handiness hardly matters.

There need be no discussion of intrinsic accuracy, since that is a function of rifle execution rather than cartridge design. Given equally fine launchers, both cartridges will deliver one-holers at reasonable ranges, and will shoot flatter than the marksman can appreciate out to where he can no longer see his target clearly.

The 30-06 ("United States cartridge, caliber 30, model of 1906") was and remains king. If the 308 now encroaches upon it that is because of improvements in rifle design, rather than new cartridges. Let him who would denigrate the King place himself well beyond the castle walls lest he be overheard. The punishment for lese majeste can be both undignified and uncomfortable.

"But there ain't many troubles that a man caint fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

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The Col. pretty much as usual seems to be spot on considering the topic.

On another forum Larry Benoit the famed big buck hunter from Vermont posted. All were in awe. Of course he suggested a 760 pump, peep sights and the 180 gr in the 30-06.

I don't believe Benoit is very concerned about the cartridge one way or another. The hunting is the real challange.

It's good to hear from these old timers. Add me to the list.

"If you don't know what big game rifle to buy get a 30-06, load the 180 gr bullet and sight it in at 200 yards. This is all you need to know about big game rifles."

My grandpop left the 760 pump to my brother, and the M70 bolt to me. I do believe that's the only thing in the world he ever had two of, that you only needed one.

Put me in Colonel Askins' camp.

AD

Love Jeff Cooper. I always read Guns & Ammo from back-to-front.

It's amazing how many of the younger readers write in and are aghast at some of his statements. The facts remain the same regardless of your opinion of them (I think he said that once).

R-WEST

Jeff Cooper says like it is: The King - And history of this round speaks for itself. Which it still creates to this day, each and every time the trigger is pulled, game is taken with this round.
I have pride every time I take game with the 30-06. Not only does it provide meat for my table, but it was also the major round that defended our country and others from the Japanese, and Nazi's, which reminds me of my fellow veterans, who fought for there lives with this round. History speaks for it's self. The future will be almost certain if you follow what others have done with the 30-06. Memories and meat on the table.

[This message has been edited by CK (edited 02-28-2002).]

I love the 06 with 180, 200m, and 220 gr. bullets for africa. It kills out of porportion to its balistics...I have not hunted with it in years, I got bored with its ability to kill everything I shot with such repeatability...

If I was subject to one rifle on a survivial basis thats what it would be...corked with 220 gr. Noslers. and a few solids.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

It's hard to argue with the Colonel. That's
probably why I own three 30-06's. I just love the round.

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RC

The old �06 is the one to beat ( see some threads ). That means its on top. It is very balanced cartridge. Its also the most many shooters can handle. It will take any game in Europe, little bit on the low side for ( big ) brown bear.

At the moment I have only 2 of them. There needs something to be done about that ...

Good shooting! Hermann

P.S.: the one thing I strongly disagree with Col. Cooper is the scout joke. Its a joke of a scope and on the wrong place, too. Try a Kahles, Swarovski or Zeiss 1.25-4 mounted with generous eye relieve and be happy ...

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Amen, Colonel, It is my favorite cartridge, and for good reason. This season, 3 shots, 3 deer on the ground. Thats hard to beat. I have 3 30-06's to choose from, but my old bolt gun usually gets the nod. If I do my part, it won't fail me.
Good luck and good shooting

I just left my Dad's place feeling as though I hurt my Grandpa's pride perhaps, that is when I showed him my new elk rifle...Browning Bar. He looked at it for a couple of minutes not saying a word. Then spoke up and said it had to pretty of a wood on it for hunting. I told him I was going to remove the stock and replace it with a plastic one so the wood didn't get scared up.

Well he then said why in the world did you buy such a big gun? I tried to explain my reasons....which were looking kinda small at this time. He took a sip of his coffee and said "Son the 30-06 your Daddy gave you (Winchester 70 model 1954) is more than a match for anything in North America" Then he went on telling me that the "Old Soldier" with 220 grain silver tip Winchesters will take any big bear you want to hunt. I was given 2 very old magazines that where missing the covers. He said take these home and read up some, it's the best damn cartridge for hunting game that was ever made. I detected a bit of saddness in his face. I'll cheer him up when I show him the restored 06 that used to be his.

My first centerfire rifle was purchased for me by my grandfather at one of the old downtown Dallas department stores (Sangers or Tische, I can't remember) in 1960 when I was 13. It's a M-70 Featherweight, 30-06 of course, with beautiful fiddleback figure in the buttstock. Some of the happiest days of my life were spent with this rifle, my grandfather and father, hunting whitetails in the Texas hill country mostly around Llano. Now it's just me and the rifle. Since those days, I've collected and traded many other guns, some of which I like a little better. That rifle, however, will be the last to go, after I am gone too.

I was thinking last fall that I would buy a new rifle this year. I had a few chamberings in mind, including the .30-06, .308, .300 RUM, .300 Win Mag and a couple more. This thread has sealed the deal. My next rifle, which I hope to acquire soon, will absolutely and most definitely be chambered for the .30-06. I've been hunting and shooting for about 30 years and have never owned a .30-06. I have always wanted to have something different than everyone else I hunted with. Well, sometimes being different is smart, but more often than not it isn't. Surely there must be some law that I have violated by not buying one before now. I'll rectify this situation as soon as I can.

Allen,
Move over a bit so I can share that fire with you and Askins!

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 03-01-2002).]

Hi aHunter, If you have the opportunity read the Scout Rifle chapter in Jeff Coopers book "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell the Truth" It explains what he is accomplishing with the Scout Rifle concept.

Make that "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth"

Much as I like and admire the 30-06, I can't think of one game animal or hunt that I couldn't find a better cartridge for. On elk I'd rather use a 338 Win Mag. On pronhorns or muley's I'd rather use a 270. On coyotes a 243. On deer in the bush a 308 carbine.

Maybe "specialization" is an overrated curse of the modern hunter, but the thought of just owning a 30-06 and using it for everything leaves me cold. Maybe someday I'll change my mind... nah!

Brad

While the 30-06 certainly will do the job I will never own one.There are just too many other calibers that do a much better job under the conditions that I hunt.

I wonder if Mr. Cooper ever gets tired of beating that nail on the head?

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May your chambers be true to your bores.

Having killed mule deer, whitetailed deer,antelope and elk with my 30-06 I have to look at it like it would be hard to find a better cartridge. I'll give the 30 mags a slight range advantage on elk but not much.

My first centerfire rifle was purchased in 1963, an Argentine Mauser in '06. Over the years it got traded away; wish I had it back.
The only '06 I have now is a Mod760. It was the determining factor in the taking of a great number of eastern N.C. deer. I haven't shot it since '95 when it was the major factor in taking a fine Canadian black bear. I'll probably never take another head of game with or shoot it. There are just too many others that are more efficient(specialized?) and more interesting. For just one gun, in the lower 48, the '06 would do well.

The first centerfire rifle I shot was a Remington M700 chambered in 30'06. I've never believed in a chambering as much as the inefficient, wasted space the '06 takes up. It's killed about everything I had in it's sights as a youth, which is fairly short range, under 500 yds. My dad shot this round up to and over 1000 meters in Vietnam, hitting 5' tall 4" wide living, moving targets, and he came back, so it fits in my book. 180, 190, 200, 220's work well, anything under 180 I do prefer the 308 Win. Good choice chambering, plenty of ammo to practice with, plenty of good rifles to choose from.

In the US

It's all round ability is biased towards the heaviest end of deer here in the UK and as such there are perhaps better compromises for us. Also it's ammunition availability is not so good here.

Don't forget fellers, there is hunting outside of the US.

Some do some things better....none do it ALL better. LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!

Well put, Johnny.

The same old, tired, iconic, monkey-hear/monkey-repeat endorsements for the .30-06 get recycled over and over again, and almost (or so it would seem) without conscious thought. It's like all cartridge development stopped (miraculously!) with the advent of the faultless, perfect ol' ought-six over a lifetime ago.

The .300s are, without exception, more versatile than the .30-06 is, as are the .338s and .375s, and the 7mm Magnums are at least as good.

Once again, I'll quote Jim Carmichel: "There's no shortage of all-purpose rifles. Where are the all-purpose hunters?"

AD

[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 03-02-2002).]

Well said, Allen.

I really don't see the .300 mags as being versitle at all. If I lived in OR maybe. But I have a .300 Mag and it's heavy and long and the animals and ranges around here don't require the tiny edge it has over the 30-06.

I can load the 180 gr bullet to almost 2900 fps which is hardly less than the .300 mags. and that's out of a 22" bbl featherweight!

To each his own but if all I had was a .300 mag and a hacksaw I would cut the bbl and load it down.

I still suggest the 30-06 as the first big game rifle to buy and the last to sell.

The worst shooting that I see at the range is from the .300 Weatherbys!

I would agree with Ray. Will kill what ever you shot with it.

Don,
Bad shooting is not the fault of the caliber, it lies with the shooter or possibly his rifle. If he can't handle the recoil he will flinch, but that's not the caliber's fault!
If you're getting an honest 2900fps from your 30/06 you likely either have one super fast barrel or your loads are way over max.
For the hunter that travels to distant lands or just hunts all over the lower 48 and Alaska, the 300mag flat beats the '06. Up close or far out the 300 will deliver more energy, knockdown power and flatter trajectory. It's velocity advantage guarantees that.
Whether or not a hunter likes the shorter and lighter rifle has nothing to do with cartridge superiority. Whether or not he can handle the recoil doesn't either. If you like the way your 30/06 performs that's fine! But that doesn't make the 30/06 the better round.

John:
Whats enough? I've got some Federal 150 grain boat tails that claim 2900 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.

How about a trophy bonded bear claw, 165 grain, at 3140? Another federal factory load.

They also have 180 grain Noslers, bearclaws, and woodleighs at 2880.

Guess that line about being way over pressure with a 185 at 2900fps is really questionable, in particular, if, like me, you have a 26 inch barrel...

And, the real question: is the animal you hit going to know the difference between the different loads, if they get hit with any of them?

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

NOPE

Everytime the .30-06 and the various .300s get compared on these internet forums - and this seems to happen without fail - the Ought-Six fans come up with the the hottest .30-06 factory load or handload data they can find (some of it doesn't pan out on the chronograph, by the way), then they compare those numbers to the slowest .300 magnum speeds they can dredge up. The conclusion always becomes the same: The .30-06 is so close to the .300 magnums that there's no reason whatsoever to choose a .300 of any persuasion over the perfect, faultless, faithful ol' .30-06.

Well, that's a cute little parlor trick to try on the unsuspecting, but it's a very naive and dishonest comparison to try and pull off. Case capacity still counts for some thing, after all - not wishful thinking or slight-of-hand hocus pocus - and the numbers will bear that statement out.

It's true that there are some excellent and fast .30-06 loads available over-the-counter that certainly do elevate the performance of that cartridge. For example, Hornady offers a Light Magnum 180 gr. load that produces 2900 fps., and Federal offers three High-Energy 180 gr. loads that provide 2880 fps. Compared to, for example, Remington's 180 gr. Core-Lokt load at 2960, it would indeed seem as though the '06 is so hard on the heels of the .300 Win. Mag. that there is little difference between the two calibers, and thus the .300 Winchester is a waste of valuable time and money.

Well not so fast.......

What gets left out of the discussion is the fact that these same Heavy Magnum/High-Energy loads are available in the form of factory ammunition for the .300 Winchester and the .300 Weatherby, and once we get to this most fair and honest apples-to-apples comparison, it becomes quite obvious that the increased case capacity of these two .300s offers a significant advantage offer the fastest ammo you can buy for the .30-06.

The fastest Hornady and Federal loads boost 180 gr. speeds in the .300 Winchester to over 3100 fps. (more than 200 fps. more than the FASTEST factory .30-06 ammo). When we get to the .300 Weatherby, 180 gr. bullets get pushed out at over 3300 fps. (a whopping 360 fps. advantage!), and you can even buy a Weatherby 200 gr. Nosler Partition load that produced some 3060 fps.!

And the .300s aren't as versatile as the .30-06, huh? Bullshit!

Anyone who claims that an animal "won't know the difference" at comparable hunting ranges between a bullet from a .30-06 and the same bullet from a .300 magnum is revealing a stunning lack of experience. The .300s absolutely deliver a discernably heavier, more decisive blow than the good ol' '06 doesn't, and don't kid yourself to the contrary. No cartridge will kill any better than the cold, hard numbers say they will, and that's the pure and simple truth.

If that is not the case, then why bother with the .30-06? Let's resign that great icon to the junk pile as well and adopt the .300 Savage in its stead!

AD

Let's give a scenario...for arguments sake.

You use a 30.06 180 grain Failsafe and get complete penetration on a broadside elk.

You use a 180 grain Failsafe out of a .300 magnum and get complete penetartion on a broadside shot on elk.

Why would the .300 Win Mag kill better than the 30.06??

This thread may kick the ass of the matchking thread...

Allen,
Once again, "Well Said" and exactly correct.

Can anyone tell me why a .300 kills faster in the scenario I gave??

Soc-
What's enough? Enough for what type hunting? If you mean elk hunting, "enough" for me is a 200gr Nosler @ 3050fps from my 300Wby. That works for moose and caribou too, as well as all the plains game of Africa, from any decent range and all angles.

NOWHERE did I compare the 30-06 to a 300 magnum.

I don't see the point. I don't even see much of a point at 2900 fps out of an 06.

I guess if you need real long range, sniping stuff, ok.

If not, the 06 is plenty. If you have something that an 06 won't kill, neck it up to 35 Whelan, or, go with a 375 H&H.

The real argument for a 300 Mag is that you need a flat, long range gun, for shooting at beyond normal hunting ranges.

That kind of gun is specialized, heavy, and, should be long barreled.

If you are really concerned with killing power, don't compare different classes.

The 06 comes in on the low end of the Magnum cartridges, if at all. I just don't like magnums, though a 44 is a bit of a pussycat to fire, after a 45 Long colt.

If you want a magnum type rifle, go up to the 375, get a Federal 300 grain trophy bonded bear claw, at 2700 fps, and, put that in a comparision with the 300 Magnum.

The irony is the conditions that give the 300 mag an advantage are pretty specialized, and, that's fine. The 06, or 375 provide a much more rounded, variety, and ability then
the 300 mag, with far better barrel and component life.

I just don't think the added recoil of the 300 Magnum justifys the extra velocity over the 06. If I want more recoil, I want a bigger bullet, with a lot more weight, and, a lot more killing power, and, lower pressures.

Not to say a rum, or mag 300 doesn't have one of the sexist cartridges going, but, it's just flat out over bore, requiring way too much powder to get the results you guys want.

I guess the real plus of the 300 Mag are high quality rifles, and, you don't have to load it to max, but can down load it, so it equals the top end 30-06 loads. Don't know what kind of pressures these loads would generate, but, out of a heavier, strong 300 mag, these should be a pussycat to fire, and,
give you the specs you need for killing anything a 30-06 can.
You also have the option of far better bullet speed
performance with the 220 grain bullets,
and, for larger game, at long range, this might be a big deal.
Not to mention you have the wonderful bullet selection avaliable to the 30-06 as well, and at the same prices.

OK: I just changed my mind. The 300 Mag is probably a great combination, and, except for powder, and recoil, just as cheap to fire as a 30-06, and, it gives you the same advantage over a 30-06 with heavier bullets, that a
30-06 gives you over the 308.

So, my conclusion is they are all great rounds. They have advantages, and disadvantages.

For me, the questions are: is the 30-06 that much better then the 308, and, does the extra powder justify the extra couple hundred fps, and, does the cost of shooting justify going to the 30-06, and, if you are in a certain area, does the price advantage go to the 06? Are you in an area where long range, flat shooting is a big deal, or, are you shooting larger game, requireing heavier bullets?

With the 300 Mag, is the extra cost worth the advantage in versatility that the 300 Mag gives you, over the 30-06, and, are you likely to take advantage of that, with the 300 Mag?

Overall, is the added pressure, and recoil, that you get by going up in velocity worth it, when, you could get more killing power, less pressure, at a lower velocity, and larger bullet diameter, with a 375???

I guess how you answer these questions determines your preference, or, if you happen to have bought a rifle in one of these calibers...

However, I can't help my prejudice, when I go to the range, and some guy is shooting a 2 inch, 357 Magnum next to me, and, I hear all that annoying bang, and shock, to get a wimpy little bullet going out of the gun, when, my 45 ACP has much less noise, about the same recoil, a hell of a lot larger bullet, and would do far more damage.

Ditto for 300 Mags at the range...

gs

gs