J Brown, I'd be just as happy with a .300 Weatherby as I am the .300 Winchester, and in many ways, the .300 WBY. is a better cartridge. I think it represents the upper limit for a practical .308 caliber hunting rifle. Its real edge, as John indicated, is its ability to push 200 gr. bullets out at 3000 fps. or better. Actually, the .300 Weatherby and the .300 Winchester cartridges have been used for so long in so many places, and for such an extended list of game species, that there really isn't anything left to prove them out on.

I didn't take the .300 Winchester all that seriously until I had my first serious hunting rifle built in that caliber over eight years ago. The guy who built the rifle was a national award winner in high-power events, and he was a real fan of the .300 Winchester for long range shooting, where it long ago estabilished an excellent track record. Since this guy was big on the caliber (always play a gunmaker to his strengths and preferences if you can!), and since it would fit my requirements sufficiently as a general-purpose hunting caliber, I ordered a .300 Win. Mag. The caliber has been sort of my standard cartridge ever since. It's inherently accurate, it's AVAILABLE, it provides a decided performance edge over the .30-06, it's shootable, I can get by with a 24" barrel instead of a 26", and I can get a useful barrel life of over 2500 rounds.

One of my local friends had a .30-378 WBY built several years ago, and he's hunting with it quite a bit. He ordered it originally without a muzzle break, and it kicked like hell. Later, he had a break added and the noise was deafening - even with plugs and muffs on. At about the 600 round mark, accuracy started to deteriorate significantly. He has that rifle in for a new barrel in .338-378 WBY. right now. I can't wait to get invited to shoot that puppy.....!

For me, the .30-378 WBY. is a proposition that I'd rather not deal with.

AD

There is nothing wrong with the 30-06. Sure the 06 will kill anything I'm going to hunt. Sure it can be a very accurate round in the right hands. So will my .280Rem, 270Win (both 06 based), 6.5x55, and 6.5-284 Norma. As far as that goes, so will my 44 magnum and .45 colt. So what's the big deal? Dead is dead is dead. Now if I get the opportunity to hunt big bear or hunt dangerous game in Africa (highly doubtful unless you're gonna pay for the trip) I will have to get something bigger. I promise it won't be no 30-06 between me and them. In my eyes, the 30-06 is for the guy who owns one gun and needs the all purpous round. So they go buy their Remington jamomatic. Every year we have the deer rifle sight in at our club. That's when we let the "public" sight in their guns. I see alot of folks with the jamomatic 30-06 and the obligatory 6" groups at 100 yards. I call that spray and pray. So why settle for a 30-06 when their are so many other rounds to have fun with?

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From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

Thanks for the insults. I give them a D minus. You must try harder. Lacks creative inspiration etc. I guess you guys can dish it out, but not take it???ROFL

John: What I see as a consistent pattern is not that the caliber makes much difference, but, the bullet weight.

I don't really see that much difference in an expanded hunting bullet, in calibers from 6mm to 375. What I do see is more mass, that may allow for larger expansion, if the bullet is designed properly.

In a way, I'm actually agreeing with you, that the 300 mag is just like the 30-06 is to the 308, as is the RUM to the 300 mag, capable of handling heavier bullets, at higher velocities.

From looking at drop tables, BC's need to be
near double to make a large difference, and the 240 grain Sierra is huge on bc, plus, it has large mass going for it, at high speed.

A 240 grain bullet, at 3100 fps isn't much off both the bullet weight, and velocity of similar loads in a 375. If the bullet holds together, as we see we have many people that say they do, and, even perform well on game, though it seems no one has really posted to that effect, only the lighter bullets, I think that would make one hell of a combination.

I also wonder if that large a bullet blows up at shorter ranges, won't it still have all that awesome energy you 300 mag guys love, but more so, and have a very good chance of doing terminal damage? That is, probable on elk, but bears are a concerned?
Is there some North American game I don't know about that a 240 grain bullet, at 3100 fps isn't enough for???

I know, that rare spieces, sometimes sighted in alaska, the Kevlar Kodiak bear ?

Currently, a couple members here think this is a great combination too, so they are working loads up for that bullet, and rifle combination as we speak.

I also find it intresting that you say

" doubt the 240gr Sierra would offer anything over the 200gr Nosler for game shooting unless used in a 300RUM or 30/378 and then I'd be concerned about it's integrity if a really close shot was offered. Out at 300yds+ it might be fine.
".

Guess you never used larger bullets 240 grain .308 bullets on game???
No personal experience, therefore your opinion can't be worth much??? ROFL

That was exactly my point. Use the 240 grain bullet, in the rum, and, you would have a far better combination then the current 300 mag, bullet weight wise, and velocity wise, both the factors you treasure in the 300 mag, and which make it so superior
to the 30-06 in your eyes.

I really think the massive discussions about bullet calibers only become intresting when the avaliable calibers increase bullet weight a large amount.

The 7mm, 30-06, 308, 300 Mag fire pretty much the same weight bullets, at little differences in velocity, and, those factors can by altered a lot by the length of barrel, and bullet BC.
The 240 weight bullet puts the RUM in the 338 class, which you have mentioned so often as a great step up from the 06.
It also gives it a bullet with a bullet BC matched only by the 50 BMG rounds.

What it should do is give you a large jump in all the things you so love about your precious 300 Mag, at a reasonable cost.

It's also pretty obvious you haven't used the 240 grain Matchking on game. Considering it adds about 70 grains of bullet weight from the average 06 bullet weight, and that works out to about 30-40%, that is a large enough jump to move the gun from one class to another.

Much as the 416 adds 100 grains of bullet weight over the 375, or the 06 pretty much doubles the 223 class bullet weight, or more.

Guys like RMK say tht a 30 is not a good choice for elk, or bear, suggesting the 338's.
Why not use a RUM 300, with a 240 grain bullet, at very flat ballisitics? If you are at shorter range, and concerned about the bullet blowing up, carry a lower load, rather then another rifle...with your precious 200 grain partition.

Not to mention the real advantage of this combination is a very flat arc, with tremendous hitting power, at long ranges.

I think I've sold myself on my next rifle bullet combination. Plus, it should be insanely accurate, if the results with the 220 grain matchking are an example...

gs

yup, I agree,

The whole point of the RUM is to be able to shoot the heavier bullets faster. That's it.

later

Socrates,

You are skewing the obvious,to fight a cause that doesn't exist.

From your prior posts,you equate the .308" MK's as the Holy Grail of on Game performance(despite crunching a SINGLE critter,with one). To further muddy that water,you wish to squirt that projectile from the largest cases available to it,to deliver the highest impact velocities(that is the most abusive test,of projectile integrity). All without having EVER done so,or weighing projectile integrity into the equation.

You are ASSUMING,the 240MK has the mettle to penetrate and retain weight in the manner of projectiles expressly designed for killing critters. Further,you disregard the magazine constraint issues associated with that projectile in the 300RUM,when housed within the Rem 700(a serious concern,when it is used as a repeater). Lastly,you assume that the throating and twist are condusive to optimal accuracy,of that extreme projectile. Lofty assumptions all,in my humble opinion.

To really complicate matters,you extrapolate things from the LR Boys and apply them to lesser distances,with the air of having done/witnessed said tests. While the MK's may harness speeds at extended distances(good BC's do that),their penchant isn't harnessing hyper-velocity,in a given diameter/weight,at closer ranges. The increased impact velocities,wreck havoc on those bullets. You blatantly disregard that notion.

I will assure you without reservation,the .308" 240MK,will NOT penetrate NOR expand,as the 210XLC will from the 338Rum. That despite the 338Ultra's decisive velocity advantage(which according to "conventional" wisdom would negate those attributes),in that particular weight. My 338Ultra will readily squirt those 210's at 3400fps.

You have read enough posts from other folks,to now consider yourself an "authority" on a cartridge you have NEVER shot on paper,NEVER shot on Game and NEVER shot with the projectile you hype and likely have NEVER even seen in the flesh.

That was a GREAT bedtime story. I will sleep well tonight. Keep up the bullshit fantasies,they are comical in the extreme................

Never said I had done any of the above you allege me to have said.

What I will say, is it appears no one else, yourself included, BS, has used those bullets, out of a RUM.

While I don't see much advantage to the little difference of the win mag over the 06, I do see a huge advantage to the rum, using heavier bullets.

Hopefully, someone will put out a heavier hunting bullet as well, and really take advantage of the cartridge.

What is the heaviest hunting bullet avaliable for the RUM 300, and, have you used it on game?

So BS, it's that hard to move from 240 grain bullets, down to 200's if the distances call for it?

The long range guys like this little combination, and, I must say, it appears to be a great package. As for all the problems you have with it, they are being addressed by people actually using the round, and the rifle, so, when they are done, we can both benefit from their knowledge.
How many times have you used the 300 RUM?
General impressions?
What game have you shot with it, at what ranges? What bullets?
Oh, you haven't used it either, or the 240 grain matchking?

Since energy falls off with distance, I am not concerned with bullet integrity. I have no doubt that at the ranges most of these rifles will be used, the bullet is sufficently heavy to penetrate. Why? Boyd and company have had great results with a lighter bullet penetrating. Why would a heavier bullet, with more retained energy, launched at lower velocity, have bullet failure problems?
And, one of my questions is, on what game would this be a problem?

I suspect a frangible 240 grain bullet, at 3100 fps, would be enough to kill deer.
Since we go from there, to black bear, and,
elk, or brown bear, that remains to be scene.

Isn't the 300 Rum sort of new, as well as the 240 grain bullet, and, don't we have to look to the 300 weatherby for similar results?

What bullets are used with that? I also have to wonder, if at a point, with a certain bullet size, even if the bullet falls apart, it still kills?
In the northern 48, I wonder if the 300 Rum isn't that rifle, bullet combination?

What would convince me I'm wrong, is a bunch of guys that use 300 Weatherby's, and say they have blown up bullets and lost game...

gs

I see alot of wasted energy here!

Socrates, I have used the 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings in the .300 Win. Mag. (loaded to about 3250 fps.) for a fair amount on hunting, specifically for mule deer, pronghorn, javelina, and Coues deer at ranges between 150 and just over 500 yards.

All I can say is, when Sierra calls them "match" bullets, and goes on to state that these are NOT designed or recommended for big game hunting purposes, they do so with just cause and they are not kidding around.

I have never used a more inconsistent, unpredictable bullet for hunting. I've had them stop just inside without opening up, I've had them sail straight through without opening up, I've had them perform in the same manner as a controlled expanding bullet, and I've had them absolutely explode and create such violent wounds that the cape and 20% of the entire animal was destroyed. There's no predicting the performance of these bullets on game, and I'll never use them again for any hunting.

Like Sierra has long stated, (and I guess I should have listen and I recommend that you do the same) the Match King is NOT a hunting bullet, and shouldn't be used for that purpose.

The trouble with you seems to be that you're light on real field experience, but you're long on theory and from that theoretical prespective you want to argue with those of solid experience. In that sense you remind me of some young and enthusiastic, but inexperience, teenagers we've had in out elk camps over the years. Some of these kids have read balllistic charts and ammunition manuals until they're blue in the face, and they think that sort of background puts them on equal footing with guys who've hunted and killed elk for many years. And of course it does not. It never has and it never will.

You can look in the mirror and tell yourself sweet little lies all you want to, and you can die for a theory if you want to, but so far your concepts haven't cut much ice around here. I suggest that you book some hunts and put some of your ideas to the test.

AD

I was always told that the 50bmg was a bigger version of the 30-06 that they dezigned because of the good ballistics.

I dare not speculate how many animals I have killed with the 220grs bullet and the 180 grs bullet out of my various 30 06's. It works and the round has proven itself time and time again from the smallest to the largest African antelope.

"The trouble with you seems to be that you're light on real field experience, but you're long on theory and from that theoretical prespective you want to argue with those of solid experience. In that sense you remind me of some young and enthusiastic, but inexperience, teenagers we've had in out elk camps over the years. Some of these kids have read balllistic charts and ammunition manuals until they're blue in the face, and they think that sort of background puts them on equal footing with guys who've hunted and killed elk for many years. And of course it does not. It never has and it never will.

You can look in the mirror and tell yourself sweet little lies all you want to, and you can die for a theory if you want to, but so far your concepts haven't cut much ice around here. I suggest that you book some hunts and put some of your ideas to the test."

No need, and, no trouble with me. Never claim to be an expert, just put out theories for experts to comment on.
No lies, either.

You just told me one opinion, and I'm sure a bunch of the other guys are going to have a different experience, using the same bullets, or heavier bullets, at higher velocities.

Still didn't get an answer on what the best BC hunting bullet is in 300 caliber, that you have used, and liked.

I just ask a bunch of questions, and, from the experience here, draw my own conclusions.

I find it intresting that you condemn my questions, when you have never used the 240 grain match king on game, yet duck uses a
220 grain bullet, and 180, rather then the lighter 168, but, it's unclear if those are
Matchkings, or hunting bullets, yet he states they work great, and have killed many game animals.

Point is, I have an open mind, and I listen to everybody, even if they don't like my questions.

On the otherhand, I have a problem with people, that due to lack of experience, with a certain bullet, or rifle, or cartridge, try to override the question with irrelevant facts.

I am not intrested in using 168 Grain matchkings out of a rum. I am intrested in a 240 grain matchking, with a fantastic bc, 711, out of a rum, not a winmag.

Many people have said the 375 will kill anything on the planet, when used with a 270-300 grain bullet. The increase from 168 grain, to 240 grain is 72 grains. That's a ton, when it comes to high speed rifle bullets.
It's about the same increase you get from the heaviest 308 bullet, before, the 220 grain, to the 375. It's a bit less, but not much less, then the increase between a 375, and a 416. It's also darn close to the 416 to 458 bullet weight increase.

The appeal, and potential, for this round, and bullet combination, is you get a very flat, very hard hitting combination, that is a considerable step up in bullet weight from any of the 30's, yet, since it is a 30, it makes for an incredible BC. If the bullet performs properly, and for me, that means hitting paper, it sounds like a great combination for long range target shooting.

I'm sure I will have a bunch of guys around here trying that same combination on game.

All you folks that trash my commments have yet to fire a 240 grain slug, at game, out of a 300 caliber RUM rifle, and tell me how it worked.

So, the problem with you, is you are putting a snow job on, when you haven't the experience to answer the question I asked.

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

Funny that a guy who calls himself "Socrates" doesn't have an original thought...

Socrates - I am going to make one last attempt to reach you. This is not intended to flame you or put you down. This is simply an observation so PLEASE don�t start calling me names again or go about attacking my credibility....

Of all the active posters on this forum, you by far and large spend more of your time defending your posts than anyone else - ever. You make a post, and then wind up making 5 additional (lengthy) posts attempting to defend your one post. Several kind folks around here have attempted to help you better understand the posts that you attempt to make. Some of your points are valid only because you were quick to pick up the idea from another thread. While this is admirable, you tend to mix all these various tidbits of information into the close facsimile of reality. As a result, some of your posts are far from accurate.

Look, I am not saying that I have all the answers - I don�t. However, the difference between you and the rest of us is - we know when we don�t have a clue. If someone asks a question that I am unsure of, I simply don�t bother to respond. The last thing that I desire to do is to conjure up an answer based on a very loose and shallow understanding of the subject. This does no one justice - most of all you.

It�s great to share your knowledge, however, in order to share it you must first gather it. The best teacher is experience. I can tell my son how to drive a car, and he can probably recite verbatim the information that I tell him. However, telling someone how to drive and actually possessing driving experience is worlds apart. I am off my soap box and you are certainly free to tell me to get stuffed once again. However, once you calm down, consider what many of us here have been telling you for months.

ZD: Thanks, but I don't care that I have little practical experience. I learn from what other people have done, their observations, and the dialectic process.

I make a suggestion, or conjecture, or hypotheisis, or theory, if I actually have some practical experience, and present it to you guys. You and I share one thing, we have an intrest in rifles. I like to punch paper, you like to kill animals, and probably punch a bit of paper.

I will NEVER have the experience of killing the animals you kill, unless they are in a position that I have to defend myself, or, I'm really hungry...;-)

OK: I have no other choice but to ask you for experiences on game, since that's something I choose not to do. However, much like martial arts, being prepared to defend yourself, and never having to use it, is much the way I approach rifles, and handguns.

I also recognize that in a different time, or world, where man has been killing animals for food for a very long time, that it's likely this is an activity that is not going to die anytime soon, and, that I would defend, along with the Second Amendment, with much of my life.

That said, when I do find something that intrests me, I like to find out if others have the same thoughts.

20+ years ago, I spent a year discussing handguns with John Linebaugh, and, I have a file full of letters on the subjects at hand.

Now, the world has 475 and 50 caliber revolvers to use, using heavy bullets.

Kind of wonder if you ever test fired a patented sabot bullet design, prior to marketing, and went through the development work on it? You know, something like an exclusive police penetration sabot, or something like that?????

Now the 50 I always wanted, the 475 I think was Ross and John's baby, but, why don't you call them, and ask? certainly a subject I was intrested in, and one I spent much time discussing with people who later made it happen.

Boyd may well be doing that with his rums.

I can't wait to see what he comes up with, and, I can't wait to see what he has to say about game results.

"However, the difference between you and the rest of us is - we know when we don�t have a clue. "

Sometimes I don't have a clue, and, that's mostly with stuff like this rum, and bullet choice. I hate to tell you this, but rifles aren't really that complicated. Ballistics, velocity, drop, all that stuff, is not rocket science.
Perhaps at the level Boyd does it, it starts approaching rocket science, but, hunting game, at average ranges, the rifle part is the easiest part of the equation.
You have all this experience of others shooting animals, in print, using different types of rifles,and, we have many people here that will happily give you their results.

This thread is about 30-06. Buy one, zero it at 200 yards, and pull the trigger, hit the right spot, and the animal falls down.

All this other stuff is for pshyco fanatics
that are mechanics freaks, and, I'm ok with that.
Has to be an exclusive 1 % in every group that goes to the extreme.

375 as well, I know only what I have discussed, and read. Don't have a problem with that, and don't care that I don't have practical experience with it, yet.

I found out enough about it, in between you know it all's snide comments, to make my own decision on what rifle, what cartridge, etc.

And, that decision was made, in part thanks to all who commented here, and, my own research on the calibers, and rifles avaliable.

I don't make decisions lightly, since unlike many of you, I'm currently living on a teachers' salary, and, I just don't have massive amounts of money to throw away, on unsuccessful projects.

However, that doesn't mean, that if let's say someone here raves about the 300 Rum with a 240 grain matchking, I won't give it serious thought.

John, despite his constant insults, and attempts at fun, which he doesn't seem to have the same humor about himself, has opened up my eyes to the benefit of the 300 mag, and, though I don't think the 300 win is worth it, I would say that the 300 RUM has a real appeal with heavy bullets.

For paper, or long range shooting, a long barreled, 240 grain, matchking, sounds like my cup of tea.

It might not be, but, the great thing about it is, chances are a bunch of other people won't be able to shoot it, so I might get one cheap.

So, yes, I'm like a little kid: when I get intrested in a combination, or caliber, I want to know EVERYTHING about it.

Sometimes I find out things I like, sometimes what I find out I can't afford it.

The cost elimenated anything over 458, and the 416. The 375 is the only one I feel justified in trying right now, but, the 300 RUM looks really intresting, and, it would be a kick to shoot at the range, at least for me.

So yes, I'm going to ask lots of questions, and I know I don't know. I hope those that do will find me a good, and willing student...

You know, the hardest part about martial arts is finding a student, that is willing to listen, and work, and is intrested in the subject.

I'm really surprised that you guys haven't realized that you have found a good student, who listens, and learns, and that that, is a rare characteristic...
gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-12-2002).]

Once again, I have failed...

Socrates,

With all due respect why don't you take up say internal ballistics? This is a area that really needs improvement. Explore new propellants for us. You could make a difference there.

Or if you must get into exterior ballistics why don't do make and maintain a bullet box? Nodody is really doing this on a consistant manner that I know of. I am trying it but only will water filled cartons.

You could have a site with pics of expanded bullets. This would keep you busy.

Meanwhile your 30/06 is plenty of gun for the lower 48 states. Rest your heart.

Thanks for the suggestions, Don.

I grieve long nights, over many beers, for my lack of understanding of Zero Drift.

Took in the 375 for bedding, and a new recoil pad.
Gunsmith is going to tear it apart, have a look, and decide on a course of action.

Ran into a handgunner, big bore guy that knows all the guys I talk to about handguns, and, bought a bunch more reloading parts...

Building the bench is going to keep me busy...

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

I have (4) 30-06's Rem 760,760C,M-70, and 7600 35 Whelen. In 30yrs I hunted the timber of WI and Alberta, the Rhododendum swamps of PA and the rolling hills of SD. Deer, Bear, Elk. The best overall cartridge is 165grn in in Hornady MiniMag. When the swamps get to thick to penetrate my backup is Rem Model 41 in 35Rem (200)grn.

When there is only 1 shot it's - Rem 760, 30-06 165gr

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I just cant agree more, shure some rifles hit harder, some are more apt for long range, or are better for more specific animals, but I would not shy away from any bear I have seen in Alaska with my m1 or ruger m77 in 3006, granted my 358 norma would probably stop a flat out charging bear faster than a 30-06, but with one gun I could take all the animals in alaska, my norma cant do that.