I disagree. Most of the hunters I hunt with are decent shots. To me, it is not the issue of the distance of the shot, but did the hunter get close enough to make the best shot possible. I have hunted with and without guides. For Africa, I prefer having a PH as he is familiar with the game, terrain and habits of the animals. I liked having him there as I needed help with trophy assessment and handling of the downed animal. I hunt without guys on my own turf and in Wyoming, but prefer to have someone to handle the horses( I am a lousy horseman) and prefer to have someone cook after I have been hunting. I hunt solely for pleasure, do not need the meat or the trophy to hang on the wall. I hunt in the manner that makes the hunt the most enjoyable for me- that means using a guide or PH or cook or cowboy at times to take care of things I do not enjoy.

I enjoy the pictures of big heads as well as the kids with spikes - no issue with me.

As to marksmanship - practice makes perfect and for the life of me, I can't see why someone would pay a lot of money to hunt, then not be able to shoot. I have not witnessed that. I have seen buck fever and had it myself. I am an average marksman and use a rest and scope everytime. Inside of 200 yds I usually don't miss, but have missed. I have wounded a couple of animals, but have recovered them. I just would not generalize that most hunters can't shoot. I have seen that most can shoot.

My 2 cents.

Boreal,
You’re finally right about something, I am not interested in what you have been saying. It’s just a lot of rhetoric about soft hands and judgments about shooting cows while lacking the necesary experience to opine.

It sounds like JohnAir and boreal are talking about two different groups of people, and they are. I have lived on a farm, born and raised there. Part of what we did year round was plan for the wild creatures that used our farm, and others, for subsistance. We developed springs, planted crops in such a manner that food was available thru the winter for wildlife, planted fruit trees (for us too!), planted way more than we needed so that we had some to leave for the wildlife, and harvested the wildlife as part of our subsistance. We also went hunting in areas that we were not familiar with, and often traded goods and produce for local help.

That concept can and is extended. The local guide/PH fills in the missing info for the out of area hunter. Exchange "money" for "goods and produce", and it becomes a commercial venture in earnest. That works OK for me, but I like a more personal feel for the local, and this is not a slam on guides and PH. Personal choice, personal preference, thats it.

Most people who have a business or are part of the managment team of a corporation just do not have the time to develope the personal feel for an area, so they have to buy it. So what? Does that mean they should not hunt? Limit their hunting to the local store? I don't think so.

Do all hunters have an instinctive ability to shoot that is fine tuned by half a box of ammo once a year, from a bench, over sand bags? No, they don't, nor can they buy it from their guide/PH. I suppose that means that if you are going hunting, hone your skills so that you can do your part of the job, whatever that may be.

boreal has a valid point also, I have met a few fo the type he mentions. Met, not spent any time with.

I often see deep arguments spring up between folks, and in this case, the arguments may be valid, but also may not apply to JohnAir and boreal. No I do not know either of them. Just doesn't feel like they are talking about the right person in their arguments.

Hove a faux beer on me, and a good day!

I agree with statements that both of you made, but I think you twon should agree to disagree. Have I ever went on a guided hunt? NO!! I live in Alberta so I guess im at an advantage. Would I ever? FOR SURE! I plan on going to Africa and would like to go on a dove hunt down south.

To Each his own.

As far as hunters being bad shots, I have missed some big game in my day, never wounded any but clean misses, but I have also put down other people wounded animals, for me it depends on the conditions, weather, running animals etc for my shooting ability, some times poor judgements prevail and I take a shot I shouldn't have luckely no wounded animals so far.


Chris

Makes sense to me. Sometimes the way peoples minds work and thier life experiences are so different that they are arguing over different things without even realizing it. I can´t even begin to see how not hunting any game outside your turf or that would require the services of others for logistics is "Real Hunting" and boreal and others can´t understand that hunting with a guide can be "real hunting". I agree to disagree.
AltaHunter,
If you want to try the high volume dove shooting send me a PM and I´ll get you a no frills hunt dirt cheap. Maybe I could even put together an unguided tent camp hunt for stag with the services of a cook for the die hard do it yourself crowd. It would be interesting to see how much complaining would be going on once they really had to do it all themselves. I would keep one guide in camp so that when they started complaining that no stags were on the property the guide could go out and shoot one to prove them wrong. Kidding aside thogh, this might be doable if there was enough interest.

JohnAir: Just as a side note, which sub-species are these- cervus elaphus hispanicus or c. e. hangul?

IV

Neither. Hispanicus is limited to the Guadalquiver region of Spain and hangul as far as I know is an asian deer. Most Argentine red deer are descended from montanus, a subspecies from Romania which is much larger than the ones you mentioned. Of course any species which has been isolated for as long as the Argentine red stag developes its own unique genetic traits and today could very well be classified as a totally different subspecies.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Boreal,
You’re finally right about something, I am not interested in what you have been saying. It’s just a lot of rhetoric about soft hands and judgments about shooting cows while lacking the necesary experience to opine.

Yup, a genuine pompous ass!

I have been fortunate enough to have hunted with John 2 times and can assure anyone that it is no cake walk to hunt the Red Stag in Southern Argentina. The ranches are so big that you could hunt your whole 5 days and not get to the area that has the Stags if not for your guides. I walked until the soles of my feet were sore and saw several good Stags. I chose to hunt for a monster and that combined with the unusually hot weather and no roar caused me to come up short. Was I dissapointed? Not in the least, it was my choice. I did take a monster Russian Boar and have taken Buffalo, Axis, and Blackbuck on previous hunts. I was fortunate enough to take all my trophies with one shot except my Buff. I think my first shot would have done the job but I wasn't taking any chances. I think if a hunter doesn't practice with his rifle and become proficent enough to make the shot it isn't anyones fault but his own. I used to deer hunt at my uncles farm as a kid and all the old timers got a great laugh out of the City people that brought new rifles to Deer camp that they had never fired. Very few of them ever shot deer.

Hawkeye47

Johnair, is that your ranch? And are you in some of the pictures? It looks like a good hunt to me and your prices are pretty good also.

Most guides can't guide.

(at least in my experience)

Garrett

Rsy,

I am very familiar with the definition of nimrod, both modern and archaic. Also am familiar with Nimrod's ancestry. I felt the word to be appropriate for this discussion, the modern usage for the clients mentioned by JohnAir, the archaic usage for that 50 % which apparently made a clean kill.

To all

In my posts, I do not mean to disparage outfitters. You could not pay me enough money to put up with the condescending "dudes" they occasionally have to care for.

I did mean to say that I have no use for the services of an outfitter, and I think there are a lot of other people out there who feel the same way. At least the hunters I associate with feel that way.

I wish to be servant to no man, nor do I want any man servant to me. I will cook my own meals. Or live off of sandwiches and cold beans, if time does not permit cooking. That is no hardship. I want no one washing my dirty dishes, dressing my game, or saddling my horse. If I am not able to do those things, I have no business in the mountains.

Self Reliance runs very strongly in my community.

Some have mentioned the companionship and entertainment provided by the outfitter. Sorry fellows but if I were ever to pay for companionship, the payee would have many traits in common wuth Dolly Parton. And entertainment is easy to come by.

I used the phrase "real hunters", several took exception to the comment. Let me share the common definition of "real hunter" in the community I grew up in. He is the one to keep the freezer full and hand down hunting traditions to the kids, while oberving all applicable regulations. Marksmanship and sportsmanlike behavior are two of his attributes.

In this community hunting is looked forward to for the comradeship and the sharing of good times. But it is not recreation or entertainment, it is far more serious than that. It is a job, equated with the gathering of comrads for the building of a barn or garage, the pouring of cement, or the construction of a new fenceline. The portion of meat available in the family's diet may very well depend on the success of the "real hunter".

Several have mentioned "buck fever" as a real problem. When hunting is a job, (a thoroughly enjoyable job) buck fever ceases to be an issue. The game animal is just another target, and as soon as you touch the trigger, well then the real work begins. When did anyone last see a seasoned Professional Hunter afflicted with buck fever.

I fully recognize that many have not had the opportunity to grow up in a community as I described. Some have removed themselves from such a community through lifestyle choices. And many prefer to hire servants to care for the mundane tasks associated with their adventures. For these unfortunate individuals, there may be no chance to partake of the "joy of the hunt" without the use of an outfitter.

The fortunate few, who observe the outfitter carefully, learn well, and take the lessons into other fields may even become "real hunters".

Kudu,
I wish they were mine. Each of those 25000 acre estancias is worth around 5 million dollars. I lease the hunting rights to some and book for others. Regardless of which system, I supervise to make sure the standards are kept up, something especially necesary in South America.

This is me:

Idaho Hunter:

You liken guides to "I da ho"

You really are condenscending. They are not servants. It is a real mistake to think that they are. Like I said before, one of my PHs in Africa was retired at 40 - and had a lot more money than anyone on this forum. Do you think he was doing what he did to be a "servant?" No, he was having a LOT of fun.

One time I was working late in a client's office, and the janitor came in to clean the trash. I started to bullshit with him; I don't remember how we got on the topic, but I found out he was a graduate of Harvard. He just got sick of the whole corporate scene and decided to become a janitor. Who knows? Maybe he was rich too. We talked about Cambridge, life, and all sorts of things.

I will never make any more assumptions about janitors or anyone else again.

AnotherAzWriter,

You still fail to grasp my point.

I am not condescending toward guides and outfitters. Most are honest individuals working hard to make a living.

I am condescending toward those individuals whom use their funds to pay others to perform tasks which they feel are beneath them. Tasks they would refuse to do for another, regardless of the payment.

The relationship of servant and served is not one of funding, it is one of attitude.

I doubt that the business of any outfitter will stay solvent if he refuses the business of those who expect to be served.

Just as no restaurant would stay in business if they refused the patronage of any unwilling to wash dishes or wait tables.

Idaho:

I have booked guided hunts. I have also hunted on my own. I know how to cape animals, etc.

I will be brutally honest with you, and don't take this the wrong way. My time off is really valuable to me, both in terms of my business as well as other commitments. The cost of a guided hunt is not the most important thing; the time is - I ultimately make a lot less money every week I decide to take off. So why not hire a guide and maximize the opportunity? I haven't deer hunted with my old pals in a few years because of this. Hopefully, I will do so again. I hire a guide because my time is really valuable to me. I don't have time to scout. So far this year I have been away from home 82 nights - I just don't have a lot of free time. I don't book with guides because I think certain tasks are beneath me. In North America, treating a guide like a servant is a sure way to have a miserable week. In Africa, it is the way it is, but I still treat everyone with respect.

You know what the best thing about hunting in Africa is? It is seeing some poor kid destined for a life of poverty and knowing the only difference between you and him was luck of birth.

AnotherAzWriter,

I never assumed you were one of the boors of whom I spoke. Though I am sure that you could name a few with which you have been forced to share a hunting camp. But of course you are far too much the gentleman to mention any names.

Note in my original post I said " A real hunter does not need someone to show him where the game is. Nor does a marksman need a guide to coach him through a shot."

There is a difference between hiring the services of a professional, and needing those services because you refuse to do, or are unable to perform the task yourself.

If one is unwilling to perform the task, that is a "dude" in our culture. If one is unable to perform the task, he is not yet a "real hunter".

Thanks for the pics..

Is this spot and stalk hunting?

Hi Ropes,
This method of hunting is comonly refered to as stalking. You move through the forest slowly glassing, sometimes oriented by the stags roar. By the time you spot a stag you are typically within 120 yds. From there you try to get into position to thread a shot through the trees. Most shots are inside of 70 yds. On the first page of this thread the 2nd picture from the top and the next to last picture will give you an idea of the terrain.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Hawkeye47:
I have been fortunate enough to have hunted with John 2 times and can assure anyone that it is no cake walk to hunt the Red Stag in Southern Argentina. The ranches are so big that you could hunt your whole 5 days and not get to the area that has the Stags if not for your guides. I walked until the soles of my feet were sore and saw several good Stags. I chose to hunt for a monster and that combined with the unusually hot weather and no roar caused me to come up short. Was I dissapointed? Not in the least, it was my choice. I did take a monster Russian Boar and have taken Buffalo, Axis, and Blackbuck on previous hunts. I was fortunate enough to take all my trophies with one shot except my Buff. I think my first shot would have done the job but I wasn't taking any chances. I think if a hunter doesn't practice with his rifle and become proficent enough to make the shot it isn't anyones fault but his own. I used to deer hunt at my uncles farm as a kid and all the old timers got a great laugh out of the City people that brought new rifles to Deer camp that they had never fired. Very few of them ever shot deer.

Hawkeye47

Does that make you one of his beloved clients that cant shoot?


I think there is a place and a time for the service of a guide, but it is a service that is both abused and over stressed. The first is usually due to laziness and the former is money motivated. There is definatley a sense of pride and self achivement in conducting ones own hunt that cannot be realized by the use of a guide.

Sometimes the value of being succesfull also seems to get over emphasized, it is nice to fill your tag, but meat in the freezer is not my definition of a succesfull hunt. Sometimes just learning of a new place to hunt can constitute a success IMHO.

I find it unfortunate, that one has to measure hunting success by the size and number of his/her trophies. These folks want the quick and painless giant buck or bull to complement their den, without having to put any sweat, time or effort into the task. This is where the outfitter comes into play. It sounds like JohnAir has to deal with these sorts of "hunters" each and every day.

I guess this is where our hunting heritage is going??? How sad....


MG

Wstrnhuntr,
Hawkeye is an excellent shot, I´ve not seen him miss once and he took half a dozen animals at ranges up to 320 meters. The longest shot was a blackbuck and that is a small target. Just as I had no problem with stating what many already know about the avg hunters shooting skills I also like to give credit where credit is due. Another important part of hunting is physical conditioning and strength. Hawkeye is 6'7'' tall and probably weighs around 250 pounds and he can walk with the best of them. From what his friend Al told me he was an excellent football player.
I agree with you that success in huntng is measured in many different ways.

This was a particularly bad year as far as poor shooting goes but most of the hunters had no problem with working hard to get their trophies. I would estimate that only 4 or 5% fall into the spoiled brat category. The ones who shot poorly were probably affected by buck fever as another poster suggested. Of course I would never mention names or post pictures of any of them. All the hunters in pictures and hunters mentioned on this thread made good clean kills. Here is another from early April, just a few weeks ago. The hunter in this picture is an excellent hunter and the guides commented favorably on his stamina and shooting skills.

quote:

Is it so hard to believe that there are actually people who have done both? And then actually learned something they could apply to their home stomping grounds later in life? Some have by choice chosen to learn everything the hard way, on their own, no help allowed. Others truly believe the best of the world ends at their own back forty. That's what they want to do, it absolutely is a personal choice.

I have been on a few guided hunts in the past and yes I certainly did learn some things abour certain game and how to hunt them.However my reasons for going on guided hunts were:
1)There was no other legal way for me to hunt certain species or locations.
2)I do not have horses to use to access some of the areas that I wanted to hunt.
3)I did not desire to wait many years to attempt to draw tags to hunt certain species.

Now that I have hunted the species and locations that I really wanted to hunt,I no longer use the services of outfitters but I certainly don't think any less of a person that does hire an outfitter.I have learned over the years that there are good hunters that do hire outfitters and there are poor hunters that do not.
As far as shooting skills are concerned,My experiences have led me to believe that there are many poor shooters in the field because they don't know the trajectories of their cartridges,don't sight in properly with their hunting loads or don't practise.Some of these people are very good at tracking,calling game and stalking so they have learned good hunting skills but there are not good shots.Other people are very good shots but lack hunting skills.I guess that this proves that hunting and shooting skills do not always go together.

quote:

I certainly don't think any less of a person that does hire an outfitter.I have learned over the years that there are good hunters that do hire outfitters and there are poor hunters that do not.

Well said!

Here is another one from April. I shot this one myself with my Ottmar made pre 64 model 70.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
... Teddy did, and he used guides, and he was the only president who ever led a charge against enemy troops.

That is simply not true. You do not know US history very well. He wasn't the first nor the last.

I have hunted for a few years, 40+. I have hunted with and without a guide. Depended on the game and the local laws. One thing I have learned as a client. Never use an outfitter that looks down on those who pay his salary. Never use an outfitter who talks about their clients. Both traits are simply not professional.

Every outfitter or guide that I have been around talks about thier clients, both good and bad. And they never mention names, but they do mention nationalities,(german,french,italian, spanish, American), or areas of the world from which the hunters come from. Some stories are pretty funny and some are amazing.

375Ai,
The following is part of an account of The rough riders charge at San Juan Hill in 1898.

quote:

(VIII) 13:35hrs
Theodore Roosevelt on Kettle Hill pleads with his superiors to be allowed to continue the assault against the northern part of San Juan Heights. Gen. Sumner assents, and Roosevelt leads around 500 assorted Rough Riders and cavalrymen down the hill and up the ridge beyond. Fire support is provided from the remaining Rough Riders and cavalrymen on Kettle Hill. After a brief resistance, the Rough Riders capture the ridge: all of the Heights are now held by American troops

Perhaps you would care to elaborate on why I am mistaken about T.R. being the only U.S. president evr to lead a charge against fortified enemy positions, and back it up with an example. I am always eager to learn more about my nations history.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
..., and he was the only president who ever led a charge against enemy troops.

Washington............Revolutionary War
Monroe....................Revolutionary War
Jackson.....................Revolutionary War, Creek War, War of 1812, Seminole War
Harrison..................Northwest Territory War, Shawnee Confederation, War of 1812
Tyler.........................War of 1812
Taylor.......................War of 1812, Seminole War, Black Hawk War, Mexican War
Pierce........................Mexican War
Buchanan................Mexican War
Lincoln.....................Black Hawk War
A. Johnson..............Civil War
Grant....................Mexican War, Civil War
Hayes........................Civil War
Garfield....................Civil War
Arthur......................Civil War
B. Harrison..............Civil War
McKinley.................Civil War
T. Roosevelt............Spanish-American War
Truman...................World War I
Eisenhower.............World War I, World War II
Kennedy...............World War II
L. Johnson...............World War II
Nixon.......................World War II
Ford..........................World War II
Carter........................U.S. Navy
Reagan.....................World War II
Bush.........................World War II

15 saw action in combat. Since 1900, 1 Purple Heart, 1 Silver star, 1 Distinguished Flying Cross.

Which of the 15 service records do you want quoted? How about just the Purple Heart, Silver Star and DFC winners? Or how about Gerard Ford with 10 battle medals?

I certainly admire TR, but for much more than his military record. Rather his use of Executive power to form the National Forest Service and set aside wilderness for generations to come.

Sure they have military experience but I can´t believe that you just read over my post and the words "led a charge" slipped past you to mean "had military experience". Leading a charge against a fortified enemy position is quite a bit more than that.

I think you know this and are just arguing because something in my post touched a nerve with you.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Sure they have military experience but I can´t believe that you just read over my post and the words "led a charge" slipped past you to mean "had military experience". Leading a charge against a fortified enemy position is quite a bit more than that.

From the Naval records:
DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS
TO
LIEUTENANT, JUNIOR GRADE, GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following

CITATION: "For heroism and extraordinary achievement in aerial flight as Pilot of a Torpedo Plane in Torpedo Squadron FIFTY ONE, attached to the U.S.S. San Jacinto, in action against enemy Japanese forces in the vicinity of the Bonin Islands, on September 2, 1944. Leading one section of a four-plane division in a strike against a radio station, Lieutenant, Junior Grade, Bush pressed home an attack in the face of intense antiaircraft fire. Although his plane was hit and set afire at the beginning of his dive, he continued his plunge toward the target and succeeded in scoring damaging bomb hits before bailing out of the craft. His courage and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Reserve."

Also:
NAVY & MARINE CORPS MEDAL
TO
LIEUTENANT, JUNIOR GRADE, JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY
UNITED STATES NAVY
for service as set forth in the following

CITATION: "For heroism in the rescue of 3 men following the ramming and sinking of his motor torpedo boat while attempting a torpedo attack on a Japanese destroyer in the Solomon Islands area on the night of Aug 1-2, 1943. Lt. KENNEDY, Capt. of the boat, directed the rescue of the crew and personally rescued 3 men, one of whom was seriously injured. During the following 6 days, he succeeded in getting his crew ashore, and after swimming many hours attempting to secure aid and food, finally effected the rescue of the men. His courage, endurance and excellent leadership contributed to the saving of several lives and was in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

The service record of Gerald Ford:

Applying for sea duty, Ford was sent in May 1943 to the pre-commissioning detachment for a new light aircraft carrier, USS Monterey (CVL-26) at New York Shipbuilding Corporation, Camden, New Jersey. From the ship's commissioning on 17 June 1943 until the end of December 1944, Ford served as the assistant navigator, Athletic Officer, and antiaircraft battery officer on board Monterey. While he was on board, Monterey participated in many actions in the Pacific with the Third and Fifth Fleets during the fall of 1943 and in 1944. In 1943, the carrier helped secure Makin Island in the Gilberts, and participated in carrier strikes against Kavieng, New Ireland in 1943. During the spring of 1944, Monterey supported landings at Kwajalein and Eniwetok and participlated in carrier strikes in the Marianas, Western Carolines, and northern New Guinea, as well as in the Battle of Philippine Sea. After overhaul, from September to November 1944, aircraft from Monterey launched strikes against Wake Island, participated in strikes in the Philippines and Ryukus, and supported the landings at Leyte and Mindoro.

Although the ship was not damaged by the Japanese forces, Monterey was one of several ships damaged by the typhoon, which hit Admiral Halsey's Third Fleet on 18-19 December 1944. The Third Fleet lost three destroyers and over 800 men during the typhoon. Monterey was damaged by a fire which was started by several of the ship's aircarft tearing loose from their cables and colliding during the storm. During the storm, Ford narrowly missed being a casualty himself. After Ford left his battle station on the bridge of the ship in the early morning of 18 December, the ship rolled twenty-five degrees which caused Ford to lose his footing and slide toward the edge of the deck. The two inch steel ridge around the edge of the carrier slowed him enough so he could roll and twisted into the catwalk below the deck. As he later stated, "I was lucky; I could have easily gone overboard."

After the fire, Monterey was declared unfit for service and the crippled carrier reached Ulithi on 21 December before preceding across the Pacific to Bremerton, Washington where it underwent repairs. On Christmas Eve 1944 at Ulithi, Ford was detached from the ship and sent to the Athletic Department of the Navy Pre-Flight School, St. Mary's College, California where he was assigned to the Athletic Department until April 1945. One of his duties was to coach football. From end of April 1945 to January 1946, he was on the staff of the Naval Reserve Training Command, Naval Air Station, Glenview, Illinois as the Staff Physical and Military Training Officer. On 3 October 1945, he was promoted to Lieutenant Commander. In January 1946, he was sent to the Separation Center, Great Lakes, Illinois to be processed out. He was released from active duty under honorable conditions on 23 February 1946. On 28 June 1963, the Secretary of the Navy accepted Ford's resignation from the Naval Reserve.

For his naval service, Gerald Ford earned the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with nine engagement stars for operations in the Gilbert Islands, Bismark Archipelego, Marshal Islands, Asiatic and Pacific carrier raids, Hollandia, Marianas, Western Carolines, Western New Guinea, and the Leyte Operation. He also received the Philippine Liberation with two bronze stars for Leyte and Mindoro, as well as the American Campaign and World War II Victory Medals.


But you are correct. No one but TR led a charge up San Juan Hill against a fortified position. The others all pale in comparison, including the 3 presidents who were 5 star generals before their presidency. Of the 15 that saw combat only TR truly saw combat. Nope, not some one who dive bombs an enemy ship while his plane is on fire, nor some one who leads a group of men on a plywood boat against ships of the line.

Sir, your lack of respect and understanding for those who have served this country and what they accomplished is incredible.

I have nothing BUT respect for those who served . I was only answering your statement regarding my assertion that T.R. was the only one who led a charge against fortified enemy positions.

quote:

You do not know US history very well. He wasn't the first nor the last.

I was open to correction in case I was somehow mistaken but it appears that You are the one who doesn’t know his history in this particular case. At any rate I thank you for the ancillary information that you provided me, totally irrelevant to the topic at hand but interesting none the less.

Yours was however an intelligent albeit failed attempt to deviate from the original topic when you realized that your statements were erroneous. It is also a good debate strategy to try to sensitize the audience by falsely stating that I have no respect for those who served. I would not mind continuing a debate on topics relevant to this thread and my statements but I have no wish to be led into capricious tangents.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 AI:
Sir, your lack of respect and understanding for those who have served this country and what they accomplished is incredible.

375,
The guy's arrogance is shining through. Don't even bother with him.
Thanks for the history refresher. Makes me damn proud!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:

Conclusions for this big game season:
1) most of you can´t shoot. Over 50% of the hunters this season missed easy shots, wounded game or DID BOTH.

2) Wity muzzle velocities over 2900 fps, use x bullets or some other premium bullet that will hold together. Some hunters are looking for mjolnir and end up using expanding bullets that are not up to the task. (But this is old news anyway)

Over 50 stags taken this season so far. I haven´t had time to load any more pics, but will as soon as the season starts to wind down.
Good Hunting.

John

Nice pictures but I believe your statement of

quote:

Conclusions for this big game season:
1) most of you can´t shoot. Over 50% of the hunters this season missed easy shots, wounded game or DID BOTH.

should have read

quote:

Conclusions for this big game season:
1) most of you can´t shoot. Over 50% of the hunters that booked with us this season missed easy shots, wounded game or DID BOTH.

then it would have been a truer statement. You have no idea about the rest of the hunters that killed game this last season all over the world. Sorry but don’t class everyone in the same class as the hunters that booked with you. Lawdog

There are a bunch of guys getting their panties in a wad over nothing on this thread. If you can shoot, don't worry about it, if you can't shoot, that's your problem and instead of being defensive, perhaps you should try to learn how to shoot decently offhand.

JohnAir reported what he experienced on his hunts. I don't have a problem with it, why should you? I can and do shoot offhand all the time at ranges considerably greater than 50 yards.