Conclusions for this big game season:
1) most of you can´t shoot. Over 50% of the hunters this season missed easy shots, wounded game or DID BOTH.

2) Wity muzzle velocities over 2900 fps, use x bullets or some other premium bullet that will hold together. Some hunters are looking for mjolnir and end up using expanding bullets that are not up to the task. (But this is old news anyway)

Over 50 stags taken this season so far. I haven´t had time to load any more pics, but will as soon as the season starts to wind down.
Good Hunting.

John

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Great pictures and thanks for sharing!

You´re very welcome Kudu.

Conclusions for this big game season:
1) most of you can´t shoot. Over 50% of the hunters this season missed easy shots, wounded game or DID BOTH.

I assume you are a paid outfitter, if this is a mistaken assumption, please disregard the following.

Please do not take the marksmanship skills of those nimrods who find it necessary to pay you to show them how to kill a big game animal as representative of us who frequent this forum. A real hunter does not need someone to show him where the game is. Nor does a marksman need a guide to coach him through a shot.

I realize that not everyone had the chance to grow up hunting at Dad's side from the time he was six years old. And not every person has a rifle shooting bench on his property. And for these unfortunate individuals, I suppose the guide does serve a purpose.

But I think that the typical member of this forum has much more dedication to his sport than that exhibited by those individuals you are criticizing in your post.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Shooter:

Please do not take the marksmanship skills of those nimrods who find it necessary to pay you to show them how to kill a big game animal as representative of us who frequent this forum. A real hunter does not need someone to show him where the game is. Nor does a marksman need a guide to coach him through a shot.
.

Bullseye!

Idaho,
Does that mean that you have never gone on a paid/guided hunt in your life? Never hunted abroad or in unfamiliar territory where a local was enlisted to show you the way? Never required the services of porters or scouts? Never hunted game in a country where it was not legal to hunt without a licensed guide? I completely disagree with your assertion that anyone who uses a guide is not a real hunter.

If you are not among those who shoot poorly, congratulations. If you are then don’t take my comments as insults but rather as a reality check for the many who’s internet shooting skills far exceed their field shooting skills. I am sure that many on this board shoot much better than I, maybe you are among them. At any rate, don’t be so sensitive. My comments are intended only to foment practice where practice is needed, and I completely disagree with your assertion that anyone who uses a guide is not a real hunter.

John

JohnAir, very well said. Also nice pic's.

Thanks Redhawk, I have better ones that I haven´t been able to dowload yet. The boar was killed by knife with dogs. I killed 3 nice stags myself this season so far with .416 rigby, .338 WM and .30-06.

Well, definitely two schools of thought going here...

To be sure, a guy who has a house full of big elk (or deer) taken without a guide is a great hunter. But he is usually one who doesn't have much experience outside of his home turf.

On the other hand, money can fill a trophy room.

I have taken a lot of animals without a guide, and I really appreciate them quite a bit. On the other hand, some of my best hunting memories are of the laughs I have had with truly funny and entertaining guides.

"Does that mean that you have never gone on a paid/guided hunt in your life? Never hunted abroad or in unfamiliar territory where a local was enlisted to show you the way? Never required the services of porters or scouts? Never hunted game in a country where it was not legal to hunt without a licensed guide? "

Johnair,

In a word NEVER.

I have never purchased an animal in someone's pasture then shot it, never paid for a ride on public transportation, and NEVER wandered around in the wilderness where I would have been lost without a babysitter to make sure I got my sorry butt back to camp. I have shot a few animals in my own pasture but would not call that hunting.


When I go hunting I take my horses, in my trailer, behind my pickup, and load the packs myself. When I wish to explore new territory, I study a map, and tentatively probe the area in the summer months, before season.

I do not take questionable shots, most of my game is killed from the prone position with the use of a bipod. I shoot my big game rifles through the summer as varmint rifles. And I have enough magnification in the scope so that I know when the cross hair is steady on the vitals.

And yes I have once drawn blood on a game animal and failed to recover it, a mistake I really do not intend to make again.

I think that a lot more members of this board have a lot more in common with me than you might think.

Perhaps you should have stated that many of your clients can not shoot rather than make a general statement directed at the members of this forum.

No, I do not have any experience outside of my home turf. But I live in Idaho, how much better could it possibly get. I am within driving distance of the Celway, Clearwater, and Salmon Rivers; the Whitecloud and the Sawtooth ranges. I doubt that any animal killed in another state or nation would fill my freezer any faster, or taste any better.

Perhaps those among us who are familiar with the demographics of the hunting population might share with us the ratiio of licensed hunters which have never purchased a nonresident permit or hired the services of an outfitter.

I might guess that it is around 90 to 95 %, but that is only a guess, I have no data at my disposal.

To the Gunwriters among us,
Yes we like to read about your adventures in foreign lands. That does not mean Joe Average Hunter ever anticipates he will make such a journey.

Once again, don´t be so sensitive. My comment "most of you can´t shoot" was meant in good fun and I never expected anyone who is confident in his abilities to get worked up about it. As for hauling your horses and shooting "most" of your game from prone; maybe that is explained by your limited hunting experience, and I don´t mean the word limited to mean that you are a mediocre hunter. I only mean that in many of the places that I and others who travel to hunt have been, you will not be able to fire prone because of the vegetation and hauling your horses is out of the question unless you plan to airlift them and then shoot on a golf course.

This kind of reminds me of an old movie I saw where a Bedouin chief tells Teddy Roosevelt that they are like the lion and the wind. The lion is master of the land he lives on but the wind is master wherever he pleases to go and all the lion can do is roar at the wind. I see the traveling hunter this way. His home turf isn’t enough for him. It would be very sad not to be able to hunt other places, especially Africa. Teddy did, and he used guides, and he was the only president who ever led a charge against enemy troops.

I've been extremely lucky over the years and have only had one animal that needed a follow up shot, a mule deer.However, what I want to say is that possibly what you have experienced with some clients may not neccesarily be "marksmanship" problems, but rather lack of for any better term, "nerve control". This past season, I bowhunted elk in AZ and over four days stalked many bulls, some up to only 10 yards. On the 4th day, I killed mine. After me, my guide had an expert archer as a client. This guy could hit a 3" spot out to 70 yards. However, when he put him in front of a bull elk at 20 yards, this guy fell apart and couldn't hit the bull.After four such misses, the client simply gave up and didn't want to hunt anymore. Many people can shoot well at targets, but when the "moment of truth" comes on game, they fall apart for various reasons. I've heard a lot of these tales from friends who are guides. I have a question for you. Do you check your clients shooting ability before the hunt?? Maybe you should have them check their rifles not only at the bench, but also off sticks. At least this would let you know what their ability is. Whatever their ability, you have been commisioned by them for a hunt. I feel it's up to the guide (or PH) to make the hunt successful. That is , after all, what you've been paid for !! Not every client will be an expert marksman. If that's what you expect, perhaps you should state that to perspective clients before taking them on.

Good point on the buck fever, I would have to agree that it has more to do with that, than with paper shooting skills. As for asking my clients to be expert shooters, we are talking about 50 yd standing shots here, and as far as it being the guides responsibility to assure a kill, please, that is totally ridiculous. If that’s what you want then hand me your rifle/bow.

All my hunters this year were rifle hunters.

It is a common misconception that a guide is being paid to get you the animal. The guide is paid to get you the shot, among other things.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Shooter:


I think that a lot more members of this board have a lot more in common with me than you might think.

Another bullseye!

JohnAir,

Many folks like the guided hunt, the socializing, and the help in getting an animal. Not me. I'll try to help you understand.

The only reason I have not hunted Africa is because I presume a guide is required. If I could go over there and wander around by myself, I would go. I'd like to hang out with some of the locals (if they wouldn't kill me on sight) and hunt with them. But the bull that I read about and see on the tube are not for me.

I stopped watching TV hunting shows because they are almost all about a guided and/or outfitted hunt.

I stopped hunting my favorite places in Wyoming wilderness areas because a guide is needed.

I'm reluctant to hunt Canada because a guide is needed, although I understand that a person can kind of get away from the guide if he is a permissive guide. I'd go for that if the guide would let me go off into the wilderness on my own.

I won't hunt with a guide in Alaska either. So I will never hunt a grizzly there (moose too?).
Guided hunts may be exciting for some, but not for me. You won't see me or my money at your hunting camp if you require a guide.

I was at my favorite Montana bar, The Old Saloon in Emigrant, one day. I met an "outfitter" there who tried to sell me a guided elk hunt. He was a fat guy with soft hands (handshake) and new cowboy clothes. I said that I would not hunt with a guide but would consider a "drop-off" hunt where one is given a horsey ride to a prepared camp and left there on your own for the duration of the hunt. The stupid ass had the balls to tell me he would not do that because I would get too excited upon seeing elk and would probably shoot a cow instead of a bull. I felt like punching the worthless dickhead, but I kept my cool. I just said "Ain't the bulls the ones with the horns?" and walked away. A bit later a real Montanan with dirty, worn hands and old worn clothes sat down by me and congratulated me on spotting such a fake "outfitter" and told me a couple of stories about the outfit. They have the big money, lease the big ranches and sell "hunts" to greenhorns. I made friends with that old worn-out cowboy and still visit with him from time to time. Fake cowboys with attitudes about "easterners", fake hunting, fake advertising, fake handshakes, and fake friendships with guides are not for me. Its only business to them and the whole outfitting business astounds me and I don't consider it hunting.

Give me an unknown area, my own gear, some very wild critters to hunt, and a little time to explore the great outdoors with a good map and compass. Make it challenging. That's what I call hunting.

If guys like me are "limited" because of assinine rules about having a guide, then so be it. If some think we are missing out on something great, let them think it, but the reality is that we are enjoying the sport the way we like it and would not have it any other way. I'll spend my money where I can enjoy it, and let others buy a guide to lead them by the hand to something they can shoot. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. )

Well Boreal, nothing wrong with that. Like I said, a guy who has a bunch of big elk or deer hanging on a wall from DIY hunts is a pretty good hunter. And one that I respect.

Is it so hard to believe that there are actually people who have done both? And then actually learned something they could apply to their home stomping grounds later in life? Some have by choice chosen to learn everything the hard way, on their own, no help allowed. Others truly believe the best of the world ends at their own back forty. That's what they want to do, it absolutely is a personal choice.

John Air I am certain all kinds of hunters retain your services. Your remark to me simply meant to me you were catering to all kinds. Be they marksman or rank novices. All of whom I am equally sure left with a little extra knowledge about themselves, there abilities, your country and animals.

BigGuy,
I hear confidence and moderation in your words. You probably really are a big guy.

I've talked in depth with a small number of very nice people who guide or have in the past for a living. The story I hear is much the same. Many clients can't shoot in the field. Many clients are physically limited (more likely out of shape than crippled). Many clients show up with new gear (or"kit") they have never used before. Many clients feel entitled to get a trophy because they have paid money in advance.
Most clients (including myself) are much better off then most outfitters, guides or PH's. I expect a guide to provide knowledge about the area and game I am hunting. Basically he tries to get me in a safe shooting range for the game we're hunting using the basic rules of fair chase. If I miss, I miss.
I have a great amount of respect for those who are willing to help people like me realize our dreams.

Paul

A good guide should do all of that. It is not always a teacher/pupil relationship. I learn many things from my clients. When a hunters abilities and skills are advanced the relationship turns more into hunting as a team, and more than just a few hunters who come here fall into that category.

quote:

and as far as it being the guides responsibility to assure a kill, please, that is totally ridiculous. If that’s what you want then hand me your rifle/bow.

That's not what I meant at all!! The best hunt that I ever went on, I didn't even get a shot, but I made some friends that will last me for my lifetime. As far as I'm concerned, a shot opportunity is all you can expect. Maybe if the area is rich in game, possibly another one. Personally, I make certain all my equipment is in order, whether it's my .338 Win or my bows. I've practiced in advance and know what my loads will do. I know the trajectory of the bullet, and how much it will drop at the various ranges.With the rifle, I practice both off the bench, off sticks, and off hand. With the bow, I practice from both standing and kneeling positions. My belief is tht the hunter owes it to himself to be prepared, after all hunts cost money!! To some, money may not be an issue, but to me it is. I have to save for many years to afford a hunt. Maybe that's why I'm always prepared. This could be why some fail, because the hunt came to them too easy. Just as an aside, I took my 6x6 bull elk this year at 50 yards, with the bow !!

Very interesting discussion. I started shooting center fire at age 8 and started hunting at age 9. Helps to be a son of a career Marine. I did the usual sight in the rifle once a year and thought I could shoot pretty well. I did fine deer and elk hunting. BUT, when I started varmint hunting and shot thousands of centerfire rounds a year I saw a radical difference in the way I shot when deer and elk hunting. If you don't engage in
an off season activity that keeps you shooting, then I would strongly encourage you to consider finding some
reason to shoot your deer/elk rifles often. I am not talking about a couple boxes of ammo at some pie plates
at 50 paces. Get out and hunt something that will force you to estimate range, fire quickly, find and
indentify game, and help you get your shooting reflexes embedded in your brain. This will go a long way towards eliminating or minimizing Buck Fever. You will also get to know your rifle/ammo better and thus be a
better shot. Shoot at long ranges in the off season and you may become reluctant to take long shots at deer or
elk because you will know if you can actually "make the shot". I shoot at varmints at very long ranges, but I have come to prefer to get closer to deer/elk to increase the probability of a well placed shot. I also am now intolerant of inaccurate hunting rifles and use the best I can afford to buy or build.

If I had the money, I would travel to hunt and would use guides where appropriate to increase the enjoyment of the hunt. But until I win the lottery, I'll put my efforts into doing it all myself locally.

My $.02.

bowhuntrrl,
I agree with that. Congrats on your bow kill. 50 yds is farther than I can reliably kill with a bow. When I bow hunted in Michigan as a young man I could take shots up to 30 yds with confidence but not much further than that. I have seen bowhunterts who could hit great out to 60 yds.

Old Elk,
You give good advice. Don´t rule out a hunt if you really want a red stag or some other Argentine game. Airfare can be had for under $1000 round trip with some looking and if you don´t need all the comforts of home when you are hunting then you can get a 5 day 1 trophy stag plus 1 cull stag hunt for under $2000.

Bottom line: Guide, or no guide, someone who can't shoot is no hunter.

Idaho: FYI a "nimrod" is an individual highly skilled in the art of the hunt. Somehow, the word has come into mis-use to equal "tyro."

RSY

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Well Boreal, nothing wrong with that. .

Hi AAZWriter,

I was actually just trying to explain why JohnAir was way off when he compared his clients with "you hunters", but he doesn't seem interested. It looks like he edited out the "most of you hunters can't shoot" part of his first post. It probably came off to me as "advice" from a pompous "outfitter" (the type I see too often) because I have a personal problem with that type of hunting. I think he is just advertising his business.

When I look at his posted photos, I am not impressed AT ALL! Those folks might just as well be posing with cattle for all I care, but that's just my humble opinion. A little kid posing with a spike whitetail that he found and killed by himself is more impressive to me.

I admit that I'm a little hard on outfitters/guides because some deserve it. I know guides that encroach on other's spots, are always asking me what I've seen this year, cheat when they can, etc. I used to be honest with them about a big deer or bear, only to find one of their clients posted on my property line on opening day. These days, I always lie to the guides. "Boreal, seen any big deer/bear out your way lately?" "Nope, just seen a few little fellers." "Hell, I might have to go somewhere else this year." Meanwhile, I've got two ten pointers and a big fourteen grazing in my back field every night and a big boar has been ripping down my fence every few days, trying to get to my apple trees.

But, I know a few that are excellent men, and earn every cent they are paid.

Anyway,
Good hunting!

quote:

A little kid posing with a spike whitetail that he found and killed by himself is more impressive to me.

IV