Interesting thread.
I'm not for, or agin wolves, but I can tell you a few things I learned in Alaska. Once they are established in an area, they are hard to control and almost impossible to eliminate. The Fed Guvment tried to eliminate them here for years. They tried bounties, shoot from planes and poison. None worked very good. They were under control, barely.
Then our guvment got liberal and decided the wolves were being unfairly targeted. The bounties stopped. The shoot from airplanes stopped. The poison stopped.
The wolve population exploded. The large ungulate population decreased. Large areas in Alaska are now closed to Moose and Caribou hunting because there isn't enough to hunt. Theres only one explanation, wolves ate them.
The state is now allowing limited airborne wolf hunting. I hear rumors that some villages are using poison. I heard they were using a bent, broken piece of a hack saw blade, frozen in a small hunk of meat. Of course everyone knows about the antifreeze trick. I guess when a law is not popular and the local folks can't get it changed, they take action. We'll see how it works.
I know personally a couple feds mentioned here. Believe me, they have an agenda. They will look you in the face and lie to you.
You folks down there have a serious problem, and I hope you get it solved.

I hear you guys.....

see that the trouble with the western states too many people who don't live here think they know whats good for them...

Brent you are severly misguided and don't have a clue about what you think you know about Wyo. Mt.. etc... ask your outfitter what he thinks.. no... wait your one of those guys who thinks they can big game hunt out here in the wilderness without a guide.. right.... yeah we have helicopters for your type... oh and you can thank me now as I donate to S&R every year too!

The more I read your replys Brent the more I got pissed .. why you ask.. I'll tell you...
you showed your cards when you immediatly responded by saying...

quote:

Your horses are harassed? Oh MY! So what?

That's why you "know it all" pseudo, self educated westerners are hated so much... you don't live here just play here... WE make a living here... but that is of no concern to your type... and you show your ignorance, self serving, self centered ego's by not caring about the problems you have created because you think you've educated yourself enough to have an opinion...

You tell me to get used to it ... trouble is I am used to it... but because of, pencil pushing, soft hands like you I have no recourse to protect my assets...

you tell me to learn a little...

you have no idea who I am do you...

I have learned much more than you think I have.. I bet you think I am some old grouchy rancher who does nothing but hang out at the local dinner and bitch about life and politics...


You are just a prick... you already showed those colors... I know your type Brent...
little men with big ego's that need to show or prove they are someone by having opinions or pseudo knowledge on topics they think no one else has researched or developed information on...
want me to prove it...

quote:

For those that really want to learn something about wolves, I've made it a little hobby to actually study the literature a little, rather than simply troll the internet as so many armchair experts here do

yeah now you are an expert because you read somthing posted by someone with a degree... give me a break...
again, little man... some of us actually live this everyday.... it ain't like you think it is.

the officials have been hiding true facts on this topic for years....

TJ, Wy. is working hard and in court right now trying to resolve the management issue. It has become a pissing match for now between Wy. and the USF&W service. Time will tell.

The elk and moose populations are being affected in and around Yellowstone, but it is an uphill battle with the likes of Brent on the side of the wolf and thier refusal to believe wolves kill elk and moose,and the fact that 500 to 700 wolves are decimating some of the herds.

Ric! You hit the nail on the head. You pinned him as he is.

Brent will have a come back, as to you being a troll, as to you being the same person as me. But I couldn't have put it as good as you did.

Brent also has a friend at the G&F, that makes him and expert. I wish I could remember the definition of an expert!

quote:
For those that really want to learn something about wolves, I've made it a little hobby to actually study the literature a little, rather than simply troll the internet as so many armchair experts here do

Well, I have posted news article upon news article with reports from Brents idol, Ed Bangs, biologists, game wardens, ranchers near Meteetse, it was all water off a ducks back to Brent, all lies and fabrication. But then he admits getting his info from the reports and documents. Where does he think the news reports come from? He sees and reads what he wants to see and hear.

Well you pro-wolfers would like to see some data , so here'e a few factoids for ya from the US Census Bureau and USDA


Alaska.....population......648,818
land mass................571,951 sq. miles
1.1 persons/sq. mile
6,600 beef cows



Wyoming.....population.....501,242
land mass.................97,100 sq. miles
5.1/persons/sq. mile
760,000 beef cows



Iowa........population.....2,944,062
55,869 sq. miles
52.4 persons/sq. mile
1,200,000 beef cows



You think *maybe* the low population density and large land mass makes it possible for an area like Alaka to have both wolves and fair hunting ?

Yet "true believers" like Brent think all of these states would be equally suitable timber wolf habitat .

As a side note , I'd bet that if you figured out the large portions of Wy that are essentially devoid of water and unsuitable for people, livestock , and elk you'd find all of these inhabatants more crowded into suitable land areas than even Iowa .

Well I'm not going to argue over the net with you inteeligent posters.It's hard enough for me to get a post through with spelling right.

But in the 1980's in McCall Idaho our neighbor was one of the first Wolf researchers in Idaho for the Forest Service.There were already wolves here and they were doing just fine as there were Grizzlies also but I guess one of the GS-14's didn't agree and got a raise for saying so.Now the Canadian wolves are killing off the local wolves and taking over.The local wolves were not causing the problems the Canadian wolves are and there multiplying like rabbits.

Grizzlies the same way.They were here and they keep putting more here.In the local Bargain gun shop a local from Elk City has a series of pictures posted of a pack of Wolves on a Moose and in less than an hour'the Moose was bones and he also had just one picture of the Wolves taking on a Black bear but didn't stick around for the out come.Many a dog has been consumed on the perimeter of Grangeville with a warning from the local warden that if on public land you can not protect your dogs from the wolves without an investigation and prosecution from the dispatching of an endangered critter.

Like someone is going to sit there and watch a pack devour your pets and do nothing about it?
Something has to be done to control what is getting out of control and have the right to protect your property on public land or not.

My opinion only....Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by Ric Horst:
Brent you are severly misguided and don't have a clue about what you think you know about Wyo. Mt.. etc... ask your outfitter what he thinks.. no... wait your one of those guys who thinks they can big game hunt out here in the wilderness without a guide..

Oh dear, missed another one didn't you. My guide is a G&F biologist and one of my former students. No problem there.

quote:

you have no idea who I am do you...

Of course I do. You just told me.

quote:

yeah now you are an expert because you read somthing posted by someone with a degree... give me a break...
again, little man... some of us actually live this everyday.... it ain't like you think it is.

Okay, whatever you say. You know everything without even trying to learn. Just comes like manna from heaven I guess. That's why you dress up all your "knowledge" with name calling and the like. Can't you at least get a little more creative about it?

Well, enjoy your wolves because you gottem and they ain't leavin'.

With luck I'll draw a tag and see some wolves and elk in Wyoming this fall. If not, well maybe next time.

In the meantime, I'll just tune you into kudu's and RMK's channel where they all mutter is:
"YOU ARE IGNORING THIS USER"

Adios,
Brent

Brent,

Your guide... so you pay him huh?

So he's a G&F biologist... and you get the truth from him?

Yeah, I had a long talk with a F&G biologist last week... very nice individual.. he told ma A LOT of things... I cannot say what because I don't have his permission to publicly post his words.. but I was enlightened ...

name calling... oh man... I admit it...that just make me feel better... to bad this is a public forum or I'd make my self feel even better...

What is it you professors say... the best way to learn somthing is by doing it... does living it count?

let me ask you this professor...

have children, family?

What if I did somthing to affect the way you provide for your family? What if I affected your livelyhood? How would you feel...

I had a horse killed on the road in front of my ranch a month ago... how'd that happen....you say.. they broke through my fence... why would a horse(s) purposfully break through a fence when they are in a 100 acre pasture...
well.. they were harrased? By coyotes right... no sir, coyotes don't chase horses... anyone who lives here knows that... but in the dark they sorta looked like coyotes... they kinda sounded like coyotes.. but bigger sorta...


well sir, you have no proof.. thats what I was told...

kiss my a$$ Brent...

How much do you pay your guide?

ahhhh and then there was silence...

I asked you a few questions... but I see you may not have answers...

Please don't whimp out now... I was having so much fun....

Researchers last week found 15 percent more elk in the northern Yellowstone elk herd than they found in last winter's count

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/01/12/news/01elknumbersrise.txt

Starting Monday, ranchers in most of Idaho and Montana who catch a wolf chasing livestock on their property can legally shoot it dead.

Feb. 7 marks

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/02/05/news/02oahead.txt


http://news.fws.gov/newsreleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=FE24D7AB-1143-3066-4071C26E625EB741

Kudu+,
Quit yer whining and make Wyoming get with the program.

That is interesting news considering the reporductive rate was well below 30% which is the minimum needed to even sustain the herds....

How'd they get bigger with out the youngs ones???

quote:

Originally posted by Ric Horst:
Brent,

So he's a G&F biologist... and you get the truth from him?

Yeah, I had a long talk with a F&G biologist last week... very nice individual.. he told ma A LOT of things... I cannot say what because I don't have his permission to publicly post his words.. but I was enlightened ...

Ric56,

"Yeah, I had a long talk with a F&G biologist last week... very nice individual"

SO HE'S A F&G BIOLOGIST TOO!! And you get the truth from HIM?

Stop the trolling, man. It'll make you go blind.

Hey Boring...

what he said was not what you guys would want to hear....

He admitted a few things and gave his opinion on a few others... it found it very intersting

I have never been opposed to making friends with G&F or talking to them ... matter of fact I have an officer who parks in our road weekly to count Elk.... ( anyone who knows the North FOrk will know him )

I am not a troll hell ask anyone on the boards I post on...

Again you guys should really get facts befor you chew on your boots

just seems here there are few who need more facts....

Boreal, you read the count real slow and have some one help you with the words that have more than on sylable. The G&F said still less than half they had 10 years ago. The same article was in the Capser paper and the counters admitted that conditions were far better this year than in previous years meaning the past count may have been lower to begin with. They admitted that it wasn't an accurate count.


Ric, I warned you, arm chair bioligists, Boreal, Brent, and Kamo Gari. They are the same people that think "a fish is a dog is a boy" Meaning human life and worth has no value.
Your horses, my horses, your dogs, my hounds, have no worth and can be wolf fodder and no big deal! Well mine are, and always will be. Not as important as my sons but pretty much second place in our family. But yet Brent feels we have no rights nor do our belongings.

I also visit with G&F biologists, I know three very well and for over 20 years. I can gaurentee they sing a different song than Brents grad student. GOd another grad student, grad students planted the lynx hair in Washington. Brent and his grad student have opinions, and we know what opinions are like, and we all have one!

Brent refuses to read and believe the truths. The truth hurts him. I hope he doesnt draw his elk tag, he applied for a bow tag and it is a sure bet.

It is about the best Boreal and Brent can do is accuse you of trolling! They are whizes!

And they have manly man, bumper stickers that are rainbow colored. And they joy in trying to rile people up. They are the trollers adding nothing to intelligent posts. Then they make up new names to pat themselves on the back. Like Munich, LOL! God they are so sly!

quote:

Originally posted by Minuch:
Coyotes are taking Dogs and Cats in the Upper Class Suburb of Eagan. Now you see Possum dead along the Road all the time.

Thank you for the kind words, Minuch. When I was a member of the Mn Trappers Assoc., we tried pretty hard to get kids involved, but with low fur prices and few fathers willing to help their kids get a start, it was generally a losing battle. Imagine if the fur-rich environment like the Eagan area was available to a 16 year old with a set of good traps, a license to drive and a bit of gas money to start him out. But, I suspect trapping in Eagan would be frowned upon, even if the trapper was educated enough in trapping to avoid catching pets and used the right gear to enable uninjured release of non-targets.
Trapping is alive and well in my area and a lot of kids are involved, but most urban kids just don't get the chance to learn the craft. When the trappers in this area come in to register their catches of otter, pine martin, and fisher, they usually come in as a family, sometimes with several generations of the family. It makes one's heart glad to see grandpa, dad, and the kids showing off their furs.
Alas, even here, the people are getting farther(further?) removed from nature. Some just have no clue. I got a call today from a guy who asked me what to do about a deer that was "caught in a tree." I figure the deer was probably caught in a low crotch or something. He said it had been in the tree for two days and that they had tried to get it out yesterday to no avail. I felt like screaming into the phone at him, but kept my PR head on my shoulders. I mean shoot the dam thing and eat it or saw the tree down, or WHATEVER. Don't let it suffer for two days. It wasn't the guy's fault, really. He just didn't know what to do, and figured the government should take care of it. I sent the warden out there, who probably just shot it and disposed of it, and likely freaked out all who witnessed the event.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Enjoy the new critters you have around there. They could provide some good sport. Well, I don't know 'bout them 'possoms. They are a weird critter. Always grinnin' and hissin' and stuff.

Boreal, you funny man! You should do something about those split personalities. There is help availible.

Here is the poster.







I am sure Brent will deny this ever happend or existed. But alas poor rainbow professor, it did.

Hey Ric, Wonder who fits this definition best?
I think they both do, Brent and Boreal. The best part is the socially inept pin. Most professors I ever met in college were "socially inept".

Definition of a Troll as found on this forum and from technet.

Internet troll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
An internet troll is a person who sends duplicitous messages hoping to get angry responses, or a message sent by such a person. The term derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" and ultimately from trolling for fish; it first appeared on Usenet. The term is frequently abused to slander opponents in heated debates and is frequently misapplied to those who are ignorant of etiquette.

Trolling is often described as an online version of the breaching experiment, where social boundaries and rules of etiquette are broken. Self-proclaimed trolls often style themselves as Devil's Advocates or gadflies or culture jammers, challenging the dominant discourse and assumptions of the forum they are trolling in an attempt to subvert and introduce different ways of thinking. Detractors who value etiquette claim that true Devil's Advocates generally identify themselves as such for the sake of etiquette, whereas trolls often consider etiquette to be something worth trolling in order to fight groupthink.

Trolls are sometimes caricatured as socially inept.

I sorta figured I would get no response from Professor Brent...

see.. when they realize that there are 3rd and 4th generation ranchers loosing livelyhoods, family business' and such they really battle with what conscience they have left...

See the rancher in Meeteetsee didn't get any money for the horses he lost ... the sheep rancher in MT didn't get any money for te sheep he lost.... hell they are only ranchers they arn't as important as the great plains farmers are they... hell wool isn't as popular now that we have 1000's of China men putting out synthetic wool....

yeah Brent is is only hard working americans loosing everything they have known... not a big deal to you guys who wanna come here to hunt for a few days...

I provide FAMILY VACATIONS for guys like you Brent... without my horses you and your family can't get the the true sense of how beautiful this part of the country is, you won't get to see the life changing views of the Rocky Mtn's. See I need my horses to take family's like yours to places on these mountains where you can fully appreciate the true beauty of this area... but hey you don't care you've been here hunting... you've seen it...who cares about all of the non-hunting familys that want the opportunity to experience the Rockys.. who care about the children that want the opportunity....

Remember now.. I said we need the wolves I believe they are part of the ecosystem... I believe there are too many and that they need to be managed....

No, Old Mr. Wizard Brent has slammed farmers to. He has little or no use for those make a living off the land. And he supposedly hunted grew up in Minnesota, they must have ran him out, and now lives in Iowa. If the farmers of Iowa knew of his diatribes, they to would run him out!

yeah the backbone of america is worthless... just common people with no real education...

except the education of life...

Brent.... what ... no dignified , glorious, save the world answers...

I'm just a poor boy rancher with no education so I don't deserve a response.. too predictable too.. i guess... would it help if I told you I was educated.. would I be worthy of a response then?

see Brent.... you pissed me off... and every other person who has livestock to make a living ... you comment of "oh my" to the harrasment thing really showed who you are...

you'll be back.. you can't stand to be silent long....

guttless wonder

Yes and the truth really hurts the guy! I am sure it is tearing him apart! Saying over and over to himself, "oh my god I could be wrong"

Here is link that tells the truth and dispells some of the myths that the tree hugger types hold on to so dearly!

http://www.natureswolves.com/index.html

Read this article.

Elk and Bison plan moves forward

By The Star-Tribune Staff Thursday, February 24, 2005




JACKSON -- A long-awaited plan to manage elk and bison in the Jackson Hole area took a baby step forward this week, as the draft document was sent out to federal and state partners for internal review.

The elk and bison environmental impact statement -- which some expect will call for a significant reduction in elk numbers -- has been delayed repeatedly. Now, a 600-page document is being circulated and slated for public review in June.

The plan includes six alternatives, said Laurie Shannon, project leader on the impact statement for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

"We did identify a (proposed) plan," she said.

But Shannon declined to reveal any of the alternatives, saying, "We want to hear from the partners first. We want to make sure that Washington's fine with anything that comes out of the discussion."

Partners include the U.S. Forest Service, Wyoming Game and Fish Department and Bureau of Land Management. Those offices received the document Friday, Shannon said.

For more of this story read Friday's Casper Star-Tribune

I will bet a six pack, wolves win and elk, bison, and hunters lose! Hang onto your ass!

Brent read the thread Huck77 put up! Great reading. What is your reply and excuse for some of that information?

I hear Peta`s quoting Kudo as the typical hunter and an example that hunters are just bloodthirsty animal killers without any respect for the natural world. They just want animals to shoot. And no competition from natural predators. Althought you think you make sense your arguing with guys who hunt and if you think we don`t agree think what someone who lives in the city and believes Bambi was a documentary thinks. Remember there`s more votes to be had in the cities then the country and politicians will always side with the most votes.

Competition and slaugher are 2 differn't things...

you have wolves in Canada but you also have more aera....
we are throwing wolves and animals into a realatively small playing field..

I'll go back to my original statement... the city people have no fucking clue whats good for us in the mountains...

Why is it a competition thing? There has been a significant reduction in elk and moose numbers in the areas around Yellowstone. How can you argue with that. Proven and documented. I just don't understand.

Kudu56, can that poster be bought any where? If so let me know.

huck they are no longer availible. That poster was made pre-wolf. 92 or 93. Sorry!

Turman, control of the wolf has nothing to do with me being able to compete or have competitors for an elk. I actually only hunt if I draw a limited quota tag, the kill isn't that important to me. I prefer to eat antelope any way. I hate to see the years and years of work done by many organizations to get the elk where they are today wiped out by unregulated, eating, killing, illegaly introduced carnivores!

Now answer honestly, if wolves were not controlled in Cananda, none, not any, where would your big game herds be????? Answer that!

Then go back and read the threads that I posted. All true, real information just like the BULLSHITT information Brent posted. One is pro one is con! But some truths in both.

Bottom line, you can lots of preditors or lots of game, but you can not have lots of both!!!



The truth hurts doesn't it?

Where are the Bullshit brothers? Boreal and Brent!


The rainbow trollers!

Kudo I`ll let you know in a couple years because they have banned the shooting of wolves around a buddies hunt area because they think their a rare sub-species. This same area has lots of moose and deer,and wolves! In all the year of hunting there they have yet to shoot a wolf anyways.

Just last week a guy a know had his draft horse attacked my wolves they ham strung it and slashed it neck. The horse had to be put down. Last fall about a mile away from the horse attack a wolf killed a dog in front of it's owner. The DNRs anwser to this is well the wolves were just passing through.

We need the wolves delisted so we can control the ones causing trouble and have a hunting season so we can control the overhaul population.

There is a reason are forefathers killed them every chance they could.

yup... I hear ya.. and he get no compensation for that horse.... because the People like Breant and Boreal don't see the need to compensate some one for an ignorate horse that smells.... after all "OH MY" it is just a horse...

sonsabitches....

again, there is a need to control the over-population... there is a chance for peacful co-existance but not at the current rate....

I seem to remember reading the wolves would never leave Yellowstone, it's just to large. When they did wander out, talk turned to the Greater Yellowstone area which went to the Big Horns and down to Jackson. Now what? let them have the states of MT, WY, & ID?

I was amazed that the native Yellowstone wolf was around 75 pds for a male and the transplanted wolves were around 130 pds. Not the same sub species.

Did see a picture of the first wolf released and shot later on a WY ranch West of Dubois. He was big and I was told in now mounted and in one of the gov offices in Dubois.

I'm guessing we have more than 1,000 wolves and that number is growing. Yes MN has wolves but cattlemen shoot at them on a daily basis just to scare them off. Heavy timber in the Northern part makes it hard to see what your neighbor is shooting at.

If they leave the park, we should be able to "harvest" the excess.

I think you are right about the sub species thing. They are not a true native wolf. It could be proven to, if there was some DNA, some where, from one of the native wolves killed in MT.WY.or Id. A comparison could tell the truth. That is why I have argued all along, they were illegaly introduced. Technicality or not. When the techinicality is the other way they argee with it.

Wyoming law, on the books, clearly states, no non-native species of wildlife can be introduced into Wyoming. Fact in point, the guy near Sundance, Dorance, that wanted to have red deer on his ranch. State ruled against him. They were deer but not native deer. Another point, the wolf shot in Nebraska three years ago, was beleived to be a Wyoming wolf. No one knew where it came from. But the USF&W did the DNA and publicly announced it was from MN or Wisc., packs. So the feds know the DNA trick.

If I were to bring in a herd of Tule elk, to Wyoming and try to raise them or release them, it would be illegal. And you can bet I would lose the battle. Difference between a Tule or Rosevelt, versus a Rocky Mountian, can't be much but not the same and not native,. So niether is a Canadian Grey wolf.

Big Game Enthusiasts: I am glad to see this thread is alive and well!
I have been unable to contribute recently as I was called out of retirement to do a robbery suppression job out on the left coast recently!
I have been gone for 16 days or so!
My return to Montana yesterday was highlighted by many observations of wintering (if you can call basking in the sun - wintering!) herds of Deer and Elk. The Elk herd on Fleecer Mountain (north of my home right on I-15) appeared to number 1,500+ animals! I was exhausted from the 675 mile drive by then and did not slow down to get the binocs out! Shame on me for that!
Still it was GREAT to see them. They were standing on a sun drenched, grassy hillside that normally has 14 to 20 inches of snow on it! The hill side was absolutely bare of snow! This does not bode well for next summer and falls fire season!
Anyway thanks to all for the links, the posts and trying to persuade the "greens" that our Elk herds and our Elk Hunting opportunities are worth protecting! Worth lots more than just to become Wolf farts that will go blowing in the winds of the Rocky Mountains!
Many Hunters I have spoken to recently are also becoming disillusioned with the green and myopic view that the rmef is clinging to!
I look for S.C.I. to step up and use their organization and powers to help protect the Elk from this Wolf infestation (and the lying backstabbing policies and attitudes held by many of our governmental agencies)!
One of the many posts I quickly perused here upon my return referred to the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd being somewhat bigger than last years census number showed. I would not consider this a trend as yet. They had an extremely mild winter last year and the counting conditions were not ideal - as I recall. Scattered Elk maybe. Elk still not on the wintering grounds or spooked off of them by - well, Wolves?
Still, this herd has been decimated! And it was not lack of water or new houses or to many cattle or Grizzly Bears! It was this huge and hungry hoarde of recently introduced Wolves!
Like the story in that post (referenced) alluded to, the herd is now half of what it was just 9 years ago and the calf recruitment ratio is simply not enough to cause an increase in the total population. Maybe the fine folks who fly and census just missed some of the Elk last year and did not miss them this year?
Trends (long term) are the true indicators we should be concerned with.
Remember, that area used to issue nearly 3,000 special Elk permits every year and this fall only 148 permits will be drawn!!!
I smell Wolf farts!
Thanks for nothing rmef!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, Glad you made it back safe and sound., Brent and his rainbow warriors refuse to read or believe any documented information that is negative to the wolf.